301 réponses à ce sujet

[Konfined]

PrinceLionheart wrote...

They should be able to hold their own, but no, I don't believe they have to be top combat experts. For example, I think Mordin would make a great Spectre, but lore-wise, he's probably the least powerful combat squadmate along with Tali.

Mordin killed a Krogan with a pitchfork.  I really think a lot of you are grossly underestimating Mordin's capabilities.

And Tali, for that matter.

Modifié par Konfined, 16 mai 2011 - 05:06 .

[HTTP 404]

interesting topic. I think the bottomline is, is that we really don't even know the entirety of what SPECTRES do. Do some even do combat in their line of work. There are CIA operatives who do not engage in combat(still trained) but work on Intel gathering and working with local populations. Are there Spectres that do this solely/mostly?

I hope there is more in depth knowledge about this secret organization as there wasn't really anything new to come of them in Me2.

[Yakko77]

Until we see Spectres who specialize in something other than combat and there is no mention of such in the Codex I think it's safe to assume that all Spectres are some sort of combat expert. I guess that makes sense as a Spectre needs to capability to fight his/her way out of a situation if need be. Sure, they may specialize in other things too (like my femgineer for example) but overall I think they can kick ass and take names.

[Yakko77]

Konfined wrote...

PrinceLionheart wrote...

They should be able to hold their own, but no, I don't believe they have to be top combat experts. For example, I think Mordin would make a great Spectre, but lore-wise, he's probably the least powerful combat squadmate along with Tali.

Mordin killed a Krogan with a pitchfork.  I really think a lot of you are grossly underestimating Mordin's capabilities.

And Tali, for that matter.

Mordin:  Turans, krogan, vorcha, all obvious threats... never see me coming.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Ship.wreck wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Arguing by awful, undermined metaphor rather handily subverted by the very codex on the Spectres (including the part of empathetic ambassadors) and including such terrible, invulnerable, untracable characters as Paragon Commander Shepard is more than a bit misguided, not least starting with how not even many variations of Shepard, the one fully known Spectre, meets many of those categories (Paragons aren't particularly frightening, every Shepard is vulnerable to death and being shot dead, Shepard is about as far from untraceable and stealthy as you get.)


Why don't you take your time to construct an argument not betrayed by your own game? And not one that relies on an interpretation of 'stealthy ghost' that Shepard him/herself most certainly doesn't embody?

I'll grant you that Shepard isn't exactly the model of stealth.

But it's a very simple logical premise:

Combatant spectre/ghost-likedness = potential
Non combatant spectre/ghost-likedness = non existent

So if you had a postion that was named for spectre/ghost-likedness "Spectre" those who fill the position would all have to be highly combatant. They can be great negotiators if they want, but they HAVE to be killers, otherwise you wouldn't be calling them Spectres in the first place.

Furthermore Shepards celebrity status is ridiculous and never made any sense in the context of the game itself. Go back and play the first part of ME. The ENTIRE time before you become a Spectre all you EVER hear about is how ultimately bad-ass and secretive the Spectres are.

Oh we can't figure out anywhere Saren's been because he's a Spectre and Spectres are so ridiculously secretive that EVERYTHING they do and EVERYWHERE they go is classified!

As soon as you become a Spectre: everyone know's your name, everyone knows exactly who you are, everyone knows exactly what you're doing, everyone know's exactly where you're going and everyone knows exactly when you got there. And NO ONE even starts to think twice about killing you, even two bit half assed thugs out on desolate rocks hiding from whatever are just like, meh, "kill the spectre" like it's no big deal. WTF???

Anyway, Shepard, Nihilus, Saren etc. might not be particularly ghost like, but they are massively more ghost like than any non-combatant could ever be. You just don't call negotiators spectres, sorry dude, that's not how it works. "Oh my God, look out! It's the ghost-attorney" yeah, no. Doesn't exist. Ghost Recon on the other hand: Sure, why not? Makes perfect sense.

Spectre-negotiator, yeah, no. Doesn't exist. Spectre that crazy special forces dude whos coming to kill you but who's also very smart and not just a dumb rock killer who may CHOOSE to negotiate with you and/or take you alive: Yep.

There are no non-combatant Spectres. Non combatant is absolutely counter to the very idea of calling anyone a spectre.

Of course, you completely ignored my post, where I say that stealth and combat are different skillsets.

A character whose skill was 95% stealth oriented, using combat only in emergencies, would seem a lot more like a ghost than someone who runs in and kills people with bullets.

In fact, by your argument, no non-stealh class should ever be allowed to be a spectre. Someone who had 90% stealth skills and 10% tech skills would be more ghostlike than someone with 50% stealth and 50% combat.

Ridiculous ghost-related-argument aside, I did make some actual points about stealth and combat being different disciplines, and describing ways to gather intelligence without dudes running around with guns on the last page. But I am too tired to type it all out again now.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 16 mai 2011 - 07:23 .

[Dave666]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Ship.wreck wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Arguing by awful, undermined metaphor rather handily subverted by the very codex on the Spectres (including the part of empathetic ambassadors) and including such terrible, invulnerable, untracable characters as Paragon Commander Shepard is more than a bit misguided, not least starting with how not even many variations of Shepard, the one fully known Spectre, meets many of those categories (Paragons aren't particularly frightening, every Shepard is vulnerable to death and being shot dead, Shepard is about as far from untraceable and stealthy as you get.)


Why don't you take your time to construct an argument not betrayed by your own game? And not one that relies on an interpretation of 'stealthy ghost' that Shepard him/herself most certainly doesn't embody?

I'll grant you that Shepard isn't exactly the model of stealth.

But it's a very simple logical premise:

Combatant spectre/ghost-likedness = potential
Non combatant spectre/ghost-likedness = non existent

So if you had a postion that was named for spectre/ghost-likedness "Spectre" those who fill the position would all have to be highly combatant. They can be great negotiators if they want, but they HAVE to be killers, otherwise you wouldn't be calling them Spectres in the first place.

Furthermore Shepards celebrity status is ridiculous and never made any sense in the context of the game itself. Go back and play the first part of ME. The ENTIRE time before you become a Spectre all you EVER hear about is how ultimately bad-ass and secretive the Spectres are.

Oh we can't figure out anywhere Saren's been because he's a Spectre and Spectres are so ridiculously secretive that EVERYTHING they do and EVERYWHERE they go is classified!

As soon as you become a Spectre: everyone know's your name, everyone knows exactly who you are, everyone knows exactly what you're doing, everyone know's exactly where you're going and everyone knows exactly when you got there. And NO ONE even starts to think twice about killing you, even two bit half assed thugs out on desolate rocks hiding from whatever are just like, meh, "kill the spectre" like it's no big deal. WTF???

Anyway, Shepard, Nihilus, Saren etc. might not be particularly ghost like, but they are massively more ghost like than any non-combatant could ever be. You just don't call negotiators spectres, sorry dude, that's not how it works. "Oh my God, look out! It's the ghost-attorney" yeah, no. Doesn't exist. Ghost Recon on the other hand: Sure, why not? Makes perfect sense.

Spectre-negotiator, yeah, no. Doesn't exist. Spectre that crazy special forces dude whos coming to kill you but who's also very smart and not just a dumb rock killer who may CHOOSE to negotiate with you and/or take you alive: Yep.

There are no non-combatant Spectres. Non combatant is absolutely counter to the very idea of calling anyone a spectre.

Of course, you completely ignored my post, where I say that stealth and combat are different skillsets.

A character whose skill was 95% stealth oriented, using combat only in emergencies, would seem a lot more like a ghost than someone who runs in and kills people with bullets.

In fact, by your argument, no non-stealh class should ever be allowed to be a spectre. Someone who had 90% stealth skills and 10% tech skills would be more ghostlike than someone with 50% stealth and 50% combat.

Ridiculous ghost-related-argument aside, I did make some actual points about stealth and combat being different disciplines, and describing ways to gather intelligence without dudes running around with guns on the last page. But I am too tired to type it all out again now.

Indeed.  Ship.Wreck?  You do realize that SpecTRe is an acronym, right?  It stands for Special Tactics and Recon. Its not about being a ghost.

[Aimi]

To avert Internet Silent Majority Syndrome, I just want to say that this is an awesome topic and I really like the speculation in the OP. The way things are now, I'd be disappointed if all Spectres ended up being commando types.

[Ship.wreck_]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Of course, you completely ignored my post, where I say that stealth and combat are different skillsets.

A character whose skill was 95% stealth oriented, using combat only in emergencies, would seem a lot more like a ghost than someone who runs in and kills people with bullets.

In fact, by your argument, no non-stealh class should ever be allowed to be a spectre. Someone who had 90% stealth skills and 10% tech skills would be more ghostlike than someone with 50% stealth and 50% combat.

Ridiculous ghost-related-argument aside, I did make some actual points about stealth and combat being different disciplines, and describing ways to gather intelligence without dudes running around with guns on the last page. But I am too tired to type it all out again now.

You can never no beyond any doubt that stealth is going to carry you through. If you're in a situation where you need stealth you NEED to be a combat expert to have any hope of survival if you fail to maintain stealth. There are no non-combat expert stealth experts.

[Ship.wreck_]

Dear lord people, you want to pretend there are Spectres who are not combat experts fine, you can pretend whatever you want.

But if you wanna tell me there are Spectres who are not combat experts: prove it. Suckas.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Ship.wreck wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Of course, you completely ignored my post, where I say that stealth and combat are different skillsets.

A character whose skill was 95% stealth oriented, using combat only in emergencies, would seem a lot more like a ghost than someone who runs in and kills people with bullets.

In fact, by your argument, no non-stealh class should ever be allowed to be a spectre. Someone who had 90% stealth skills and 10% tech skills would be more ghostlike than someone with 50% stealth and 50% combat.

Ridiculous ghost-related-argument aside, I did make some actual points about stealth and combat being different disciplines, and describing ways to gather intelligence without dudes running around with guns on the last page. But I am too tired to type it all out again now.

You can never no beyond any doubt that stealth is going to carry you through. If you're in a situation where you need stealth you NEED to be a combat expert to have any hope of survival if you fail to maintain stealth. There are no non-combat expert stealth experts.

This is false. Where are you getting the idea that there are no non-combat stealth experts?

I know someone who is a graffiti artist and an "urban explorer." Urban exploring heavily features what you might call "light B&E" Here's a quote from an article authored by one such Urban explorer: 

"Fast forward a few months, Silent Motion and Statler while on a mission elsewhere inadvertently spotted a potential climb into the Paddington sorting office. Now when I say climb I don’t mean a small wall or fence, I mean a five story, rusty drain pipe shimmy of death that few in the right mind would ever think, or have the ability to do. Its the only reason I’m revealing what are effectively access details as I don’t know anyone who will be able to do it. Even standing on the ground I felt nervous as SM climbed, one slip, one loss of grip and the result would be a bloody mess on the roof of the small Peugeot parked below. With a few clangs he was in, those within the area seemingly none the wiser.

We hadn’t heard from our conspirator for over twenty minutes but the guard within hadn’t moved so we knew he wasn’t caught. Time ticked away, theories of what happening running through our minds before we heard a click behind us, SM sticking his house from a fire-escape, a large grin on his face as he simple said, “we’re in.”"

I know a bunch of people capable of this kind of thing, most of whom couldn't or wouldn't fight to save their lives. Fighting when you're nicked in a situation like this is a bad idea. It's best to either try to escape peacefully or go quietly. I once saw someone parkour over like four walls and up a fire escape because he thought security had showed up at the building he was trying to climb. I had to call him on his cell to tell him it was just some kids in a black van. Funny as heck.

I have six years of "combat training" and I'd be a worse spectre than that guy. Mark my words.

Also, since you can't be bothered to read my post on the last page, I'll repost part of it here: 

Let's say I've spent the last 19 years of my life studying stealth and thievery, though I have never once harmed anyone or gotten into a combat situation. This means I've so far devoted 100% of my life to building up my stealth skills.

Now let's say I'm tapped for a new spy program. They give me a year-long crash course in combat and survival. Now I have 19 years of stealth/thievery training and 1 year of combat training. Now I have that effective 95% stealth, 5% combat ratio I keep talking about. I still think there are a great number of Spectre-related tasks I'd be better suited for than some gun-jockey with a single year of stealth training, or even someone who has 10 years of stealth training and 10 years of combat training. Because this mission is more focused on stealth, and someone who isn't quite as good at stealth as I am will fail it. They need someone who has devoted a much larger portion of their life to studying stealth rather than combat, and that's what Ioffer.

The same thing is true for other skills than stealth, but that seemed to be the example people would be able to understand.

Basically, I think that some Spectres may have had no more than 6 months to a year of combat training, rather than being "combat experts" a term which I think would be defined as someone who has spent a substantial portion of their life training on combat, at least 5-6 years.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 16 mai 2011 - 08:53 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Ship.wreck wrote...

So if you had a postion that was named for spectre/ghost-likedness "Spectre" those who fill the position would all have to be highly combatant. They can be great negotiators if they want, but they HAVE to be killers, otherwise you wouldn't be calling them Spectres in the first place.

You're engaging in selective tautalogy. In order to fit your personal definition they have to fit your personal definition.

Furthermore Shepards celebrity status is ridiculous and never made any sense in the context of the game itself. Go back and play the first part of ME. The ENTIRE time before you become a Spectre all you EVER hear about is how ultimately bad-ass and secretive the Spectres are.

Oh we can't figure out anywhere Saren's been because he's a Spectre and Spectres are so ridiculously secretive that EVERYTHING they do and EVERYWHERE they go is classified!

As soon as you become a Spectre: everyone know's your name, everyone knows exactly who you are, everyone knows exactly what you're doing, everyone know's exactly where you're going and everyone knows exactly when you got there. And NO ONE even starts to think twice about killing you, even two bit half assed thugs out on desolate rocks hiding from whatever are just like, meh, "kill the spectre" like it's no big deal. WTF???

And now you're trying to have it both ways. Make up your mind: are Spectres celeberties that everyone knows of, or all they 'spectres' secret operatives? You're arguing for both, despite how they directly contradict eachother.

The answer is, of course, both. There are some famous Spectres who get in the news. And then there are those whose Spectre status isn't even known, hence why not even the Alliance in ME1 knows exactly how many Spectres there are.

Shepard is a famous spectre because (a) Shepard was Humanity's first Spectre and was a political achievement to be boasted about, and then ( because Shepard saved the galaxy from a very public event. But not all Spectres are Shepard, and from the start voices of reason (like Chakwas) point out that a lot of the Spectre legend is myth and exageration.

Anyway, Shepard, Nihilus, Saren etc. might not be particularly ghost like, but they are massively more ghost like than any non-combatant could ever be. You just don't call negotiators spectres, sorry dude, that's not how it works. "Oh my God, look out! It's the ghost-attorney" yeah, no. Doesn't exist. Ghost Recon on the other hand: Sure, why not? Makes perfect sense.

If every known example of a Spectre doesn't fit your analogy of being a ghost-figure, your analogy is critically flawed. Even ignoring the aspects of non-combat stealth to being hidden (like, say, how spies hide in plain sight), your argument has no basis in the lore or in practice and revolves around a name that is, at heart, an acronym of words that makes no relation to being anything related to ghost (a word with plenty of subjective interpretation to be allowed for... such as implications of avoiding any combat because, hey, ghosts can't hurt you.).

Not even in the human language, mind you. Let alone the alien languages that are being translated. You're not only creating an argument unsupported by the human language, your making an argument based on a translation-derived acronym that loses meaning in any other language.

Spectres aren't a ghost recon unit: that's the Salarian STG. Spectres aren't SOCOM units: that's also the STG. Spectres aren't a Delta Force unit: that's the Asari Commandos. 

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 16 mai 2011 - 09:26 .

[Dave666]

Ship.wreck wrote...

Dear lord people, you want to pretend there are Spectres who are not combat experts fine, you can pretend whatever you want.

But if you wanna tell me there are Spectres who are not combat experts: prove it. Suckas.

Seriously?  We're talking about a fictional organization within a fictional game universe.  Spectre's can be whatever the hell Bioware says they are.  If Bioware says that there's a Spectre known as Sneaky Bob who's specialty is that he can sneak into any place, anywhere at any time and has never fired a gun in his life then thats the way it is.
 

[Dean_the_Young]

Ship.wreck wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Of course, you completely ignored my post, where I say that stealth and combat are different skillsets.

A character whose skill was 95% stealth oriented, using combat only in emergencies, would seem a lot more like a ghost than someone who runs in and kills people with bullets.

In fact, by your argument, no non-stealh class should ever be allowed to be a spectre. Someone who had 90% stealth skills and 10% tech skills would be more ghostlike than someone with 50% stealth and 50% combat.

Ridiculous ghost-related-argument aside, I did make some actual points about stealth and combat being different disciplines, and describing ways to gather intelligence without dudes running around with guns on the last page. But I am too tired to type it all out again now.

You can never no beyond any doubt that stealth is going to carry you through. If you're in a situation where you need stealth you NEED to be a combat expert to have any hope of survival if you fail to maintain stealth. There are no non-combat expert stealth experts.

Uh, yes. There are.

Militarist wanking aside, the military neither pioneered the concept of deception and hiding, nor does it retain a monopoly on the skill in trade or practice.The military isn't even the primary employer of those skills: the CIA, FBI, and even special police agencies have infiltration skills down far more pat and more constant.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 16 mai 2011 - 09:28 .

[Dave666]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Ship.wreck wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Of course, you completely ignored my post, where I say that stealth and combat are different skillsets.

A character whose skill was 95% stealth oriented, using combat only in emergencies, would seem a lot more like a ghost than someone who runs in and kills people with bullets.

In fact, by your argument, no non-stealh class should ever be allowed to be a spectre. Someone who had 90% stealth skills and 10% tech skills would be more ghostlike than someone with 50% stealth and 50% combat.

Ridiculous ghost-related-argument aside, I did make some actual points about stealth and combat being different disciplines, and describing ways to gather intelligence without dudes running around with guns on the last page. But I am too tired to type it all out again now.

You can never no beyond any doubt that stealth is going to carry you through. If you're in a situation where you need stealth you NEED to be a combat expert to have any hope of survival if you fail to maintain stealth. There are no non-combat expert stealth experts.

Uh, yes. There are.

Militarist wanking aside, the military neither pioneered the concept of deception and hiding, nor does it retain a monopoly on the skill in trade or practice.The military isn't even the primary employer of those skills: the CIA, FBI, and even special police agencies have infiltration skills down far more pat and more constant.

Indeed, gameplay aside Kasumi's character would probably not even carry a gun, she prides herself on getting in and out of places completely undetected.  Nobody even knows she's there so who's going to stop her?  There are master thieves today that nobody knows about because they're just that good they leave no trace that they were there.

[corporal doody]

from Military.com

Special Tactics is the U.S.
Air Force's Special Operations ground combat force that executes a myriad of
Special Operations missions to enhance air operations deep in enemy
territory.

Operating with Navy SEALs, Army Special Forces, and Rangers,
Special Tactics personnel are specially trained to seize enemy airfields and
recover distressed personnel in hostile territory.

As a member of a
Special Tactics team, getting to work can be an adventure. For example on any
given day you may freefall from a high altitude, then maneuver your parachute to
land behind enemy lines in time to save injured personnel; use inflatable boats
and scuba gear to sneak in from the sea to guide in military aircraft; or use
cross-country skis and rock climbing gear to traverse steep alpine passes to
direct a precision bomber attack. This is just all in a day's work for the men
of the Air Force Special Tactics Group.

from thefreedictionary.com

Special Tactics Team
A task-organized element of special tactics that may include combat
control, pararescue, and combat weather personnel. Functions include
austere airfield and assault zone reconnaissance, surveillance,
establishment, and terminal control; terminal attack control; combat
search and rescue; combat casualty care and evacuation staging; and
tactical weather observations and forecasting. Also called STT. See also
combat search and rescue; special operations; special operations
forces; special tactics; terminal attack control.


from wiki:

Special operations (SO) are typically performed independently or in
conjunction with conventional military operations. The primary goal is
to achieve a political or military objective where a conventional force
requirement does not exist or might affect the overall strategic
outcome. Special operations are usually conducted in a low-profile
manner that typically aim to achieve the advantage of speed, surprise,
and violence of action against an unsuspecting target. Special ops are
typically carried out with limited numbers of highly trained personnel
that are able to operate in all environments, utilize self-reliance, are
able to easily adapt and overcome obstacles, and use unconventional
combat skills and equipment to complete objectives. Special operations
are usually implemented through specific or tailored intelligence

from wiki:

Reconnaissance, also known as scouting, is the military term for performing a preliminary survey, especially an exploratory military survey, to gain or collect information.[2] Primarily, it refers to preliminary reconnaissance;
reconnaissance used to determine the enemy forces disposition and
intention; gathering information about an enemy's composition and
capabilities, along with the lay of the land and weather conditions
through direct observation. Reconnaissance is generally an intelligence-gathering asset of human intelligence (HUMINT), under the intelligence cycle of intelligence collection management.
Examples of reconnaissance include patrolling by troops (rangers, scouts, or military intelligence specialists), ships or submarines, manned/unmanned aircraft, satellites, or by setting up covert observation posts. Espionage
normally is not reconnaissance, because reconnaissance is a military
force's operating ahead of its main forces; spies are non-combatants
operating behind enemy lines.


so i still believe a SPECTRE (SPECial Tactics and REconnaissance) has to be a combat expert. this does not mean that the SPECTRE is ONLY a combat expert...The SPECTRE has to HAVE a advanced knowledge of the combat arts to be called a SPECTRE, without it...they arent called SPECTREs but something else. a spectre should and WILL use diplomacy, hired mercs, and bribes to get the job done..IN ADDITION to actually participating in combat operations if need be.
an individual who uses ONLY diplomacy is a DIPLOMATE. an individual who ONLY hires mercs is a CONTRACTOR. an individual that ONLY uses bribes is a CORRUPTER (?).

you can combine diplomate, contractor, corruptor anyway you want.....but if combat expert isnt attacted anywhere...they arent SPECTRES....they would be SPIES!

Modifié par corporal doody, 16 mai 2011 - 12:07 .

[corporal doody]

USMC Force Recon...from wiki

The principal mission of Force Recon is reconnaissance, to collect any pertinent intelligence of military importance, observe, identify and report adversaries to MAGTF commanders.[3] Like Division Recon (also known as the Marine Recon Battalions), they imply a mixed element of amphibious reconnaissance and ground reconnaissance. These missions are known as green operations. This practice fundamentally covers a wide spectrum of reconnaissance but primarily the FORECON operators conduct deep reconnaissance.

Black operations are the missions that require direct action (DA). They are the opposite of green operations missions, where the Force Recon operators basically "look for trouble". Depending on the situation and the target location, the FORECON operators usually conduct direct action missions within the artillery and naval gun support fan; these operations demonstrate "small-scale" shock and awe.

from Thefullwiki.org

Special Tactics Group (New Zealand)

Previously known as the Anti-Terrorist Squad, theSpecial Tactics Group is the full-time tactical
and Counter-terrorism group of the New ZealandPolice.

The STG is civilian-police SWAT type unit established to respond to high-risk situations which are beyond the scope or capacity of everyday policing. STG officers directly support operational police in incidents such as sieges with specialist tactical, negotiation, intelligence and command support services.

from wiki:

A SWAT (special weapons and tactics)[1][2] team is an elite paramilitary tactical unit in American law enforcement departments as well as some foreign police departments. They are trained to perform high-risk operations that fall outside of the abilities of regular officers. SWAT team members' duties include: performing hostage rescues and counter-terrorism operations; serving high risk arrest and search warrants; subduing barricaded suspects; and engaging heavily-armed criminals.

Modifié par corporal doody, 16 mai 2011 - 12:15 .

[2kgnsiika]

OP, you're taking lack of proof for a statement ("Spectres have to be proficient in combat") and assuming the negation of that statement is true. The truth is, we have no conclusive evidence to back up either statement, so speculation will accomplish nothing.

[Antivenger]

corporal doody said...

snip

Hey everyone! "Special Tactics and Reconnsaissance" is a styalised name humans made up for the Council's personal goons.

FOR EXAMPLE.

While humans refer to it as Omega, the asari name for it translates as "the heart of evil", the salarian name as "the place of secrets", the turian name as "the world without law", and the krogan name it as the "land of opportunity", clearly reflecting their cultural attitudes towards the society within Omega.

Did you really think that all the aliens would have the same exact wording? Most likely they have their own name for the title we call SpecTRe.

Modifié par Antivenger, 16 mai 2011 - 12:19 .

[corporal doody]

Antivenger wrote...

corporal doody said...

snip

Hey everyone! "Special Tactics and Reconnsaissance" is a styalised name humans made up for the Council's personal goons.

FOR EXAMPLE.

While humans refer to it as Omega, the asari name for it translates as "the heart of evil", the salarian name as "the place of secrets", the turian name as "the world without law", and the krogan name it as the "land of opportunity", clearly reflecting their cultural attitudes towards the society within Omega.

Did you really think that all the aliens would have the same exact wording? Most likely they have their own name for the title we call SpecTRe.

WHAT???

from ME wiki:
the Special Tactics and Reconnaissance branch was founded at some point after the salarians joined the Citadel and shortly before the Krogan Rebellions began, when the Council became uneasy about the unchecked expansion of the krogan into Citadel space. The Spectres were chosen from the finest salarian STG operatives and asari huntresses, intended to function partly in an observational capacity, but also as the Council's first line of defense. When the krogan finally turned against the Citadel, the Spectres were ready for them, using  guerrilla tactics such as computer viruses and devastating sabotage to slow the krogan down before the turians
joined the conflict. For years the activities of the Spectres were a Council secret, but their role was made public after the Krogan Rebellions were over.


SPECTRE in ME is not a HUMAN created organization.

and Omega is still CALLED Omega by the other races...regardless of the cultural specific nomenclature. perhaps it is because of the translation device humans use in game...dunno....if that is the case...No matter what the other races call a Spectre...it TRANSLATES to special blah blah blah...different meanings but same function..or is it..different words...same meaning?

Modifié par corporal doody, 16 mai 2011 - 12:36 .

[Antivenger]

Yeah, it translates to SpecTRe because it's styalised that way by the translators. And who do you think made the translators in the first place? Humans who have learned alien tech and aliens who have studied human language (Of which English is the most common, of course.)

[corporal doody]

Antivenger wrote...

Yeah, it translates to SpecTRe because it's styalised that way by the translators. And who do you think made the translators in the first place? Humans who have learned alien tech and aliens who have studied human language (Of which English is the most common, of course.)

so whats your point? WHATEVER the asari version of the term Humans use as spectre DOESNT mean what we have interpreted Special Tactics and recon to be? Then the translator device is faulty!!  SLOPPY WRITTING BIOWARE!

and i seriously mean...what are trying say? i cant tell if you are being sarcastic or sumthin

Modifié par corporal doody, 16 mai 2011 - 12:39 .

[Dean_the_Young]

He not saying it was a human created organization. He's noting that the name SPECTRE is something derived from translation... and translations and intuitive meanings are something that change by culture. It's the same reason that puns or pop-culture jokes don't translate: the entire subtext is non-existent in most regards. This isn't even just between languages (though that's a gulf in and of itself), but even between cultures of the same language.

Once you engage in cross-language translation, however, acronym's are projections. 'SPECTRE' wouldn't be a literal acronym: it in and of itself is selective inclusion of letters, and calling it the STR or the SPETARs would be just as valid.

Any argument that relies on translated word similarities is flawed whenever those words don't reflect cultural contexts. The old communist nomenculture of 'Democratic People's Republic' examples are numerous. Your wiki-citations of a number of military special operations groups that function completely differently from the Spectres in terms of missions, composition, and utility are another. It's the difference in policies and practices, not a difference (or similarity) in translated in terminology, that determine whether things are similar or not. The Salarian STG works completely differently from the New Zealand STG. Shepard and his team are no Delta Force and vice versa. Saren was no DIA operative, even though both would be classified as 'military operative.'

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 16 mai 2011 - 12:45 .

[corporal doody]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

He not saying it was a human created organization. He's noting that the name SPECTRE is something derived from translation... and translations and intuitive meanings are something that change by culture. It's the same reason that puns or pop-culture jokes don't translate: the entire subtext is non-existent in most regards. This isn't even just between languages (though that's a gulf in and of itself), but even between cultures of the same language.

Once you engage in cross-language translation, however, acronym's are projections. 'SPECTRE' wouldn't be a literal acronym: it in and of itself is selective inclusion of letters, and calling it the STR or the SPETARs would be just as valid.

Any argument that relies on translated word similarities is flawed whenever those words don't reflect cultural contexts. The old communist nomenculture of 'Democratic People's Republic' examples are numerous. Your wiki-citations of a number of military special operations groups that function completely differently from the Spectres in terms of missions, composition, and utility are another.

then we can throw out EVERYTHING said in ME....cuz humans may have translated wrong.
i mean...the council goes so far as to say special.....tactics.....recon....seperately. but that must be wrong.

Modifié par corporal doody, 16 mai 2011 - 12:46 .

[Antivenger]

You made a point about SPECIAL TACTICS (and reconnaissance) operatives employing combat abilities. Since it's just a styalised name, some SpecTRes could well be spies with little fighting prowess.

[corporal doody]

Then they are SPIES