301 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

corporal doody wrote...
then we can throw out EVERYTHING said in ME....cuz humans may have translated wrong. 

Uh, no.

We can throw out projections of meaning when none are waranted, and recognize common aspects of cultural differentiation. For real life examples, when an Arabic man greets another as a brother, I would do well to keep in mind that doing so is a common cultural greeting, not necessary a literalism as a British or Australian man would understand. Most western societies don't have that sort of culture to greet even strangers in terms of family, but that doesn't mean the transltion is wrong. Brother means brother, but what brother entails is a definition that varries by culture and subculture.

Likewise, I wouldn't simply assume that being kissed on the cheek is a sign of romantic affection. In some cultures, it would be. In others, it isn't.  Context is key. Assuming that a word is directly literal in interpretation after translation is profound cultural ignorance, as should have been obvious the moment you cited the New Zealand STG and yet could have compared how (not) similar it was with the Salarian STG.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 16 mai 2011 - 12:51 .

[Dean_the_Young]

corporal doody wrote...

Then they are SPIES

The distinction is cultural. Not everyone, even in the english speaking world, subscribes to that.

[corporal doody]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

corporal doody wrote...
then we can throw out EVERYTHING said in ME....cuz humans may have translated wrong. 

Uh, no.

We can throw out projections of meaning when none are waranted, and recognize common aspects of cultural differentiation. For real life examples, when an Arabic man greets another as a brother, I would do well to keep in mind that doing so is a common cultural greeting, not necessary a literalism as a British or Australian man would understand. Most western societies don't have that sort of culture to greet even strangers in terms of family, but that doesn't mean the transltion is wrong. Brother means brother, but what brother entails is a definition that varries by culture and subculture.

Likewise, I wouldn't simply assume that being kissed on the cheek is a sign of romantic affection. In some cultures, it would be. In others, it isn't.  Context is key. Assuming that a word is directly literal in interpretation after translation is profound cultural ignorance, as should have been obvious the moment you cited the New Zealand STG and yet could have compared how (not) similar it was with the Salarian STG.

So what than...would be THE accepted CULTURAL Variations of SPECIAL TACTICS and RECON be? cuz i love symantics. please explain.

i like that...condescending. yummy.

could have...but didnt.

Modifié par corporal doody, 16 mai 2011 - 01:01 .

[corporal doody]

for that matter....when in game has it been suggested that the translation of SPECTRE contradicts what HUMANS......(especially the codex) ASSUME (apparently) spectre to be?

Modifié par corporal doody, 16 mai 2011 - 12:57 .

[Dean_the_Young]

corporal doody wrote...

So what than...would be THE accepted CULTURAL Variations of SPECIAL TACTICS and RECON be?

It depends who set it up and for what purpose. Just like a Spectial Task Group could be a police force brance (in New Zealand) or a paramilitary spy agency with a penchant for biological warfare... or a committe formed to addess a particular problem for a city council meeting. It's the execution that matters.

In the case of the Council, the Spectres started as an outgrowth of military applications thousands of years ago, but over time have become a tiny group that handles numerous problems that go well beyond military issues, ranging from cracking down on illegal research to political assassination to tracking down information leakers. They are, now and in this age, handy-men for solving any sort of problem, and not just military tough-points.

Whatever the Council Spectres started as originally, it's easy to see what they are not, and that's a military special forces team/branch. Since, you know, the Spectres are too few and don't even work together like all the other special forces groups you listed.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 16 mai 2011 - 12:59 .

[Dean_the_Young]

corporal doody wrote...

for that matter....when in game has it been suggested that the translation of SPECTRE contradicts what HUMANS......(especially the codex) ASSUME (apparently) spectre to be?

It doesn't contradict what humans assume it means. It contradicts what you assume it to mean, not least because you assume a direct literalism (as you understand it) to remain unchanged for over a thousand years. Other groups would interpret the same words by their own histories in different directions.

It doesn't contradict my understanding of special operatives at all, and I'm human as you. The organization started with distinctly military roots, at the Krogan Rebellions, but like many organizations its mission purpose (and hence its direction and composition) have easily morphed into something that is no longer a strictly, or even primarily, a military force.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 16 mai 2011 - 01:04 .

[corporal doody]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

corporal doody wrote...

for that matter....when in game has it been suggested that the translation of SPECTRE contradicts what HUMANS......(especially the codex) ASSUME (apparently) spectre to be?

It doesn't contradict what humans assume it means. It contradicts what you assume it to mean, not least because you assume a direct literalism (as you understand it) to remain unchanged for over a thousand years. Other groups would interpret the same words by their own histories in different directions.

It doesn't contradict my understanding of special operatives at all, and I'm human as you. The organization started with distinctly military roots, at the Krogan Rebellions, but like many organizations its mission purpose (and hence its direction and composition) have easily morphed into something that is no longer a strictly, or even primarily, a military force.

but please SITE in-game LORE...or anything Bioware has written or said outside of the game to back up what the humans in the late 22nd century Mass Effect would intrepret Special.....tactics.....recon to be. cuz from what im getting from you.....the terms have changed a great deal from what we know them to be IRL....rather the writers have purposely changed the meanings of the terms but made no attempt to inform the player.
 cuz you yourself have done a great deal of assuming.

[Dean_the_Young]

corporal doody wrote...

but please SITE in-game LORE...or anything Bioware has written or said outside of the game to back up what the humans in the late 22nd century Mass Effect would intrepret Special.....tactics.....recon to be. cuz from what im getting from you.....the terms have changed a great deal from what we know them to be IRL....rather the writers have purposely changed the meanings of the terms but made no attempt to inform the player.
 cuz you yourself have done a great deal of assuming.

Going by CDN, Special Tactics and Recon entails beating up and arresting the Mass Effect equivalent of wikileaks, and doing specialty police work. Strangely, Shepard's never really done either sort of mission as a Spectre. Now, military recon forces based on recon like you've kept citing generally don't do police work at all, let alone inside domestic terrotory, so we're already past the comfort zone of what you're insisting has to be on the basis of human organizations... even though mass effect shows that it isn't how the Council roles. The Spectres and paramilitary at most, with the emphasis on the para.


There is no changing of the meaning of the words. What matters is what you believe the words entail... something that varies by person, let alone by (human) culture. You're see the words and you think strictly in a military context by generic American military culture.

The Council, by their application of the Spectres and by the organization and handling of the Spectres, don't view the Spectres as a military force. Maybe they used to, but now adays the Spectres don't fit out perceptions of any sort of conventional or special forces group. The Spectres aren't a reserve commando-team kept by the Council to respond to some hostage team, nor are they a counter-terrorism team to break down the doors: the Spectres are general go-to problem solvers for all ranges of far more broad problems that aren't already handled by the, well, equivalent bodies you listed, and no Spectre is presumed to be fit for every sort of problem. Hence why, in the very codex, the Council keeps both cold blooded assassins and empathetic ambassadors: clearly those two categories have some serious lacks of overlap.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 16 mai 2011 - 01:23 .

[corporal doody]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

corporal doody wrote...

but please SITE in-game LORE...or anything Bioware has written or said outside of the game to back up what the humans in the late 22nd century Mass Effect would intrepret Special.....tactics.....recon to be. cuz from what im getting from you.....the terms have changed a great deal from what we know them to be IRL....rather the writers have purposely changed the meanings of the terms but made no attempt to inform the player.
 cuz you yourself have done a great deal of assuming.

Going by CDN, Special Tactics and Recon entails beating up and arresting the Mass Effect equivalent of wikileaks, and doing specialty police work. Strangely, Shepard's never really done either sort of mission as a Spectre. Now, military recon forces based on recon like you've kept citing generally don't do police work at all, let alone inside domestic terrotory, so we're already past the comfort zone of what you're insisting has to be on the basis of human organizations... even though mass effect shows that it isn't how the Council roles. The Spectres and paramilitary at most, with the emphasis on the para.


There is no changing of the meaning of the words. What matters is what you believe the words entail... something that varies by person, let alone by (human) culture. You're see the words and you think strictly in a military context by generic American military culture.

The Council, by their application of the Spectres and by the organization and handling of the Spectres, don't view the Spectres as a military force. Maybe they used to, but now adays the Spectres don't fit out perceptions of any sort of conventional or special forces group. The Spectres aren't a reserve commando-team kept by the Council to respond to some hostage team, nor are they a counter-terrorism team to break down the doors: the Spectres are general go-to problem solvers for all ranges of far more broad problems that aren't already handled by the, well, equivalent bodies you listed, and no Spectre is presumed to be fit for every sort of problem. Hence why, in the very codex, the Council keeps both cold blooded assassins and empathetic ambassadors: clearly those two categories have some serious lacks of overlap.

yup. assumptions. rather....this thread = some kind of rhetorical exercise

if you can SITE in game lore and/or anything BIOWARE has said that word SPECIFICALLY CONTRADICT what i believe a SPECTRE to be....send me a message...or dont.  until then...keep on believing whatchu want....ill do the same.

Modifié par corporal doody, 16 mai 2011 - 01:35 .

[celuloid]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

celuloid wrote...
I bet even I would not be intimidated by said Volus (If you do not comply, Sir, I will be forced to make a bad smell).

Why aim so high?
If you do not comply, your mother will never return from her shore leave from the Dreadnaught Kilimanjaro, nor will I tell you what sort of antidote she needs within the next two hours from the odorless gas she inhaled.

Plus, I just hacked and stole all your money.

So basically if I am orphaned hobo, your volus is out of option.

[Dean_the_Young]

corporal doody wrote...

yup. assumptions.

if you can SITE in game lore and/or anything BIOWARE has said that word SPECIFICALLY CONTRADICT what i believe a SPECTRE to be....send me a message...or dont.  until then...keep on believing whatchu want....ill do the same.

Cerberus Daily News is Bioware written lore. It is, arguably, even in-game: at least every player hooked up to XBOX live could see the news stories.

Moreover, your definition of 'Reconaissance' has been violated by both games. All the Spectres operate within Council space, or Council territory as it were, while you've already tried to insist that the objective definition for a recon force is that it's behind enemy lines. You have an inherent contradiction: the vast majority of Spectre history is within, not outside of, Council territory, and the very premise of legal freedom only applies in areas the Council can apply it, ie its own.

[Dean_the_Young]

celuloid wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

celuloid wrote...
I bet even I would not be intimidated by said Volus (If you do not comply, Sir, I will be forced to make a bad smell).

Why aim so high?
If you do not comply, your mother will never return from her shore leave from the Dreadnaught Kilimanjaro, nor will I tell you what sort of antidote she needs within the next two hours from the odorless gas she inhaled.

Plus, I just hacked and stole all your money.

So basically if I am orphaned hobo, your volus is out of option.

If you're an orphaned hobo, his personal Asari Commando can shoot you for getting in his way.

Or he can bribe you with money for shoes. The poor are the easiest to pay off, because they don't demand much.

[corporal doody]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

corporal doody wrote...

yup. assumptions.

if you can SITE in game lore and/or anything BIOWARE has said that word SPECIFICALLY CONTRADICT what i believe a SPECTRE to be....send me a message...or dont.  until then...keep on believing whatchu want....ill do the same.

Cerberus Daily News is Bioware written lore. It is, arguably, even in-game: at least every player hooked up to XBOX live could see the news stories.

Moreover, your definition of 'Reconaissance' has been violated by both games. All the Spectres operate within Council space, or Council territory as it were, while you've already tried to insist that the objective definition for a recon force is that it's behind enemy lines. You have an inherent contradiction: the vast majority of Spectre history is within, not outside of, Council territory, and the very premise of legal freedom only applies in areas the Council can apply it, ie its own.

im looking at the CDN stuff and nowhere am i seeing the beating people up and making arrests thing. unless you were paraphrasing several entries.

so what would the BIOWARE definition of Reconnaissance be? HEll what do you define as enemy lines?

Modifié par corporal doody, 16 mai 2011 - 02:04 .

[corporal doody]

en·e·my/ˈenəmē/Noun
1. A person who is actively opposed or hostile to someone or something.
2. A hostile nation or its armed forces or citizens, esp. in time of war.

enemy lines
plural noun

the forward positions of the enemy

[Aumata]

Spectre are combat experts. That doesn't mean they are just combat experts, but if it is anything like what we have then it is a requirement. Hell they are based on the STG. STG is basically the badasses of the special forces in the Mass Effect Universe. Spectre has to be adaptable, some days you can get by a mission with out firing a shot, some days you don't. A Spectre is a combat expert as much as they are a expert in other fields. Kinda like the STG.

[Antivenger]

"SpecTRes have to be adaptable"

I like that. Even though some SpecTRes don't neccessarily use violence as the default option, they would still need to be prepared.

Modifié par Antivenger, 16 mai 2011 - 02:08 .

[corporal doody]

Aumata wrote...

Spectre are combat experts. That doesn't mean they are just combat experts, but if it is anything like what we have then it is a requirement. Hell they are based on the STG. STG is basically the badasses of the special forces in the Mass Effect Universe. Spectre has to be adaptable, some days you can get by a mission with out firing a shot, some days you don't. A Spectre is a combat expert as much as they are a expert in other fields. Kinda like the STG.

My very first reply...Spectres are supposed to be independent operators. they had better be able to handle themselves in any situation.


i totally agree....but OP seems to be associating COMBAT and COMBATANT exclusively with the Military and Military Action. Then seperating Spectre activities from military actions. therefore...Spectres dont do combat..and no need for combat proficiency


I ASSUME

Modifié par corporal doody, 16 mai 2011 - 02:12 .

[celuloid]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

celuloid wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

celuloid wrote...
I bet even I would not be intimidated by said Volus (If you do not comply, Sir, I will be forced to make a bad smell).

Why aim so high?
If you do not comply, your mother will never return from her shore leave from the Dreadnaught Kilimanjaro, nor will I tell you what sort of antidote she needs within the next two hours from the odorless gas she inhaled.

Plus, I just hacked and stole all your money.

So basically if I am orphaned hobo, your volus is out of option.

If you're an orphaned hobo, his personal Asari Commando can shoot you for getting in his way.

Or he can bribe you with money for shoes. The poor are the easiest to pay off, because they don't demand much.

If she shoots me, what information will he obtain from me?
Aren't Spectres self-reliant? Or are they just thugs with guards (however beatiful).

Oh. I forgot to mention I am uncooperative hobo who got sacked by volus company. Those cheating bastards aren't exactly welcome in my cardbox.

[Dean_the_Young]

corporal doody wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

corporal doody wrote...

yup. assumptions.

if you can SITE in game lore and/or anything BIOWARE has said that word SPECIFICALLY CONTRADICT what i believe a SPECTRE to be....send me a message...or dont.  until then...keep on believing whatchu want....ill do the same.

Cerberus Daily News is Bioware written lore. It is, arguably, even in-game: at least every player hooked up to XBOX live could see the news stories.

Moreover, your definition of 'Reconaissance' has been violated by both games. All the Spectres operate within Council space, or Council territory as it were, while you've already tried to insist that the objective definition for a recon force is that it's behind enemy lines. You have an inherent contradiction: the vast majority of Spectre history is within, not outside of, Council territory, and the very premise of legal freedom only applies in areas the Council can apply it, ie its own.

im looking at the CDN stuff and nowhere am i seeing the beating people up and making arrests thing. unless you were paraphrasing several entries.

http://www.cerberusdailynews.com/?tag=tela-vasir

The entire Tela Vasir chain, including both cooperation with police in mass arrests (the slavers on a Salarian world) and the storyline about the leak of Citadel economic reports that embarassed the Council.

so what would the BIOWARE definition of Reconnaissance be? HEll what do you define as enemy lines?

You're fixating on the wording, and not what the group actually does in the here and now. You'd have conniptions in history: to cite a point (and Winston Churchill), the Holy Roman Empire was neither particularly Holy, Roman, or an Empire. Or the French Socialist party, which until last week was going to run perhaps the most famous capitalist in France. Or the Democratic Party in a nation that has always been a federalist republic.

When it started, the Spectres were a military force during the Krogan Rebellions. After the Krogan, the military threats largely went away. The priority missions the Council needed done changed, the name didn't.

[Dean_the_Young]

celuloid wrote...

If she shoots me, what information will he obtain from me?

Assuming your still alive after a cripling/disarming shot, whatever you have. Mind you, that same objection applies to Shepard as well, whenever Shepard needs information from anyone. What are Shepard's options?

Mind you, interrogating you is only one avenue. Confiscating wherever you hid the data, as most people have to with information that can't be memorized, gets the data just as well. At which point, surveilance on you beforehand offers means to find the data.

Aren't Spectres self-reliant? Or are they just thugs with guards (however beatiful).

They're thugs who get whatever needs to be done, done, whether they recruit twelve people or twenty. Shepard's always had a team, a provided ship, and an interstellar organization or two backing him.

Oh. I forgot to mention I am uncooperative hobo who got sacked by volus company. Those cheating bastards aren't exactly welcome in my cardbox.

Then the volus can send someone else, say someone of your own species, with a generous conditional offer.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 16 mai 2011 - 03:02 .

[celuloid]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

celuloid wrote...
Oh. I forgot to mention I am uncooperative hobo who got sacked by volus company. Those cheating bastards aren't exactly welcome in my cardbox.

Then the volus can send someone else, say someone of your own species, with a generous conditional offer.

In other words, he can do anything but solve the situation himself. We can see how effective this Spectre is.

[Dean_the_Young]

celuloid wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

celuloid wrote...
Oh. I forgot to mention I am uncooperative hobo who got sacked by volus company. Those cheating bastards aren't exactly welcome in my cardbox.

Then the volus can send someone else, say someone of your own species, with a generous conditional offer.

In other words, he can do anything but solve the situation himself. We can see how effective this Spectre is.

By that standard, Shepard's ineffective. Shepard can't infiltrate the Collector Base on his own, Shepard couldn't track down Saren on his own, Shepard can't breath space and survive on his own, Shepard can't convince anyone and everyone to do what Shepard wants, etc. Shepard couldn't even survive a dead Reaper without help: what a loser!

The first rule of problem solving is to avoid linear thinking and taking advantage of resources available to you and using them to overcome an obstacle. That includes tools and allies. People who can effectively combine various strengths to overcome situations where something is set up against them personally are the people who achieve results, whether they're pulling the trigger, hitting the switch, or not.

[celuloid]

If you are on the ground unable to do basic tasks everyone physically okay should be able to do, it begs the question: Why are you Spectre operative? Why aren't you criminal mastermind controlling everything from behind your desk? Like TIM for example.
There sure must be better candidates for your position.

Modifié par celuloid, 16 mai 2011 - 03:29 .

[corporal doody]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

corporal doody wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

corporal doody wrote...

yup. assumptions.

if you can SITE in game lore and/or anything BIOWARE has said that word SPECIFICALLY CONTRADICT what i believe a SPECTRE to be....send me a message...or dont.  until then...keep on believing whatchu want....ill do the same.

Cerberus Daily News is Bioware written lore. It is, arguably, even in-game: at least every player hooked up to XBOX live could see the news stories.

Moreover, your definition of 'Reconaissance' has been violated by both games. All the Spectres operate within Council space, or Council territory as it were, while you've already tried to insist that the objective definition for a recon force is that it's behind enemy lines. You have an inherent contradiction: the vast majority of Spectre history is within, not outside of, Council territory, and the very premise of legal freedom only applies in areas the Council can apply it, ie its own.

im looking at the CDN stuff and nowhere am i seeing the beating people up and making arrests thing. unless you were paraphrasing several entries.

http://www.cerberusdailynews.com/?tag=tela-vasir

The entire Tela Vasir chain, including both cooperation with police in mass arrests (the slavers on a Salarian world) and the storyline about the leak of Citadel economic reports that embarassed the Council.

so what would the BIOWARE definition of Reconnaissance be? HEll what do you define as enemy lines?

You're fixating on the wording, and not what the group actually does in the here and now. You'd have conniptions in history: to cite a point (and Winston Churchill), the Holy Roman Empire was neither particularly Holy, Roman, or an Empire. Or the French Socialist party, which until last week was going to run perhaps the most famous capitalist in France. Or the Democratic Party in a nation that has always been a federalist republic.

When it started, the Spectres were a military force during the Krogan Rebellions. After the Krogan, the military threats largely went away. The priority missions the Council needed done changed, the name didn't.

my BA is in Asian Studies. concentration on Japan and history...fyi. and if you are attempting to illustrate your intellectual superiority based on personal interpretations of a video game....then you sir are win.<_<

should have stuck to my guns and decided not to post on here again.
and regardless of the symantics, rhetoric, and condescension...i still believe a spectre HAS TO be a combat expert. At no time did i ever say a SPectre had to ONLY be a combat expert.
I disagree sir that a spectre need not be proficient in combat.  you seem to have pulled alot of speculation and personal interpretation and made it FACT....and based everyone elses opinions off your own.  but thats my opinion.

Modifié par corporal doody, 16 mai 2011 - 03:44 .

[Talthanar]

First off on page 3 I saw a marine (or former marine) wondering about Army and Navy arms training. Army everyone is trained in M-16 use. Is your medic or intel specialist as good as your average to poor infantryman? Probably not but I can toss any of the above a rifle and they know how to cap baddies. Navy gets shotgun and pistol use since most of their life is spent in narrow halls and stuff. Rifles are just too big to naviguess through that situation.

Military operative is pretty broad too. Your Navy intelligence specialist is a military operative but I wouldn't toss one of those guys an M4 and tell'em to get me data. Their job is substantially different from an Army 35M (HumInt Gatherer) who's job is to do interrogations and go door to door trying to find humans to gather intelligence from.

Need combat training? I'd say atleast a basic equivalent with advanced training in whatever their expertise is.