53 réponses à ce sujet

[De Chimera]

At the end if you let anders live and come back to the party, then side with the Templars, what happens?
I know if you get other people at full friend/rival they'll stay with you no matter.
But what about Anders? What happens with him?

If anyone knows, Please Share.

[bleetman]

If you're at full friendship and try to get him to help you alongside the Templars, he refuses. If you let him go, he turns up later at the Gallows and tries to kill you.

If you're at full rivalry and do the same, he should begrudgingly agree to it, but the game bugs and assumes he's a friend, so he refuses.

[IanPolaris]

bleetman wrote...

If you're at full friendship and try to get him to help you alongside the Templars, he refuses. If you let him go, he turns up later at the Gallows and tries to kill you.

If you're at full rivalry and do the same, he should begrudgingly agree to it, but the game bugs and assumes he's a friend, so he refuses.

I hope they don't change that.  Anders refusing is a feature not a bug IMO and about the only part of Act III that makes sense.  Anders in a large part IS the cause of mages.  I can not see him side with slaughting all mages (esp when he KNOWS they are innocent) for any reason especially when he is ready and willing to give up his own life.  How are you going to force him to do this?  Kill him?  He'll take death first which IMO is completely in character and understandable.

-Polaris

[Kevin Lynch]

IanPolaris wrote...

I hope they don't change that.  Anders refusing is a feature not a bug IMO and about the only part of Act III that makes sense.  Anders in a large part IS the cause of mages.  I can not see him side with slaughting all mages (esp when he KNOWS they are innocent) for any reason especially when he is ready and willing to give up his own life.  How are you going to force him to do this?  Kill him?  He'll take death first which IMO is completely in character and understandable.

-Polaris

I agree that Anders shouldn't ever side with the Templars in order to slaughter mages. It would be very out-of-place considering his motivation. However, there is precedence in this, as his merger with Justice has shown him to be unstable enough to enable the killing of "innocent" mages (recall Alrik's tranquil solution quest). Too, if he was in your party for any amount of time he's likely to have caused the death of not a few mages anyway.

[Ryzaki]

De Chimera wrote...

At the end if you let anders live and come back to the party, then side with the Templars, what happens?
I know if you get other people at full friend/rival they'll stay with you no matter.
But what about Anders? What happens with him?

If anyone knows, Please Share.

If he's at full friend/not full rival he says "no." and if you let him go you'll have to kill him later. If he's at full rivalry he'll act like he's at full friend because the game bugs out. Without bugs in full rivalry he should agree so he can help stop the war that's about to break out. 

This'll be fixed in patch 1.03 which should be out in a few weeks. 

I personally can't wait for it. I'll finally have my healbot during the templar ending. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 14 mai 2011 - 05:49 .

[bleetman]

Siding against the mages as rivalry would make more sense if the Circle was actually responsible for what was happening. He's pretty what-have-I-become along the rival path by the end, I can see him wanting to make up for what he's done.

Problem is, slaughtering the Circle doesn't really accomplish that.

[IanPolaris]

Kevin Lynch wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I hope they don't change that.  Anders refusing is a feature not a bug IMO and about the only part of Act III that makes sense.  Anders in a large part IS the cause of mages.  I can not see him side with slaughting all mages (esp when he KNOWS they are innocent) for any reason especially when he is ready and willing to give up his own life.  How are you going to force him to do this?  Kill him?  He'll take death first which IMO is completely in character and understandable.

-Polaris

I agree that Anders shouldn't ever side with the Templars in order to slaughter mages. It would be very out-of-place considering his motivation. However, there is precedence in this, as his merger with Justice has shown him to be unstable enough to enable the killing of "innocent" mages (recall Alrik's tranquil solution quest). Too, if he was in your party for any amount of time he's likely to have caused the death of not a few mages anyway.

I still don't see it.  The RoA means genocide to all mages in the circle.  Whether you personally agree with this characterization or not, ANDERS clearly thinks this and I don't see him siding with the Templars under any circumstance which is why I hope the ending is NOT fixed.  Having him side with the templars in this case (end of Act 3) would be completely imersion/character breaking.

-Polaris

[Rifneno]

IanPolaris wrote...

Kevin Lynch wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I hope they don't change that.  Anders refusing is a feature not a bug IMO and about the only part of Act III that makes sense.  Anders in a large part IS the cause of mages.  I can not see him side with slaughting all mages (esp when he KNOWS they are innocent) for any reason especially when he is ready and willing to give up his own life.  How are you going to force him to do this?  Kill him?  He'll take death first which IMO is completely in character and understandable.

-Polaris

I agree that Anders shouldn't ever side with the Templars in order to slaughter mages. It would be very out-of-place considering his motivation. However, there is precedence in this, as his merger with Justice has shown him to be unstable enough to enable the killing of "innocent" mages (recall Alrik's tranquil solution quest). Too, if he was in your party for any amount of time he's likely to have caused the death of not a few mages anyway.

I still don't see it.  The RoA means genocide to all mages in the circle.  Whether you personally agree with this characterization or not, ANDERS clearly thinks this and I don't see him siding with the Templars under any circumstance which is why I hope the ending is NOT fixed.  Having him side with the templars in this case (end of Act 3) would be completely imersion/character breaking.

-Polaris

And even if you could convince him to help the RoA (and I might add you'd have a better chance of getting Loghain to become a proud patriot of Orlais), Justice can clearly assume control.  Especially by Act III, where he seems to be the dominant personality.

[ipgd]

IanPolaris wrote...

I still don't see it.  The RoA means genocide to all mages in the circle.  Whether you personally agree with this characterization or not, ANDERS clearly thinks this and I don't see him siding with the Templars under any circumstance which is why I hope the ending is NOT fixed.  Having him side with the templars in this case (end of Act 3) would be completely imersion/character breaking.

-Polaris

"Breaking his character" is pretty much the entire point of the rivalry path.

On the rivalry path, Anders is extremely unstable. In the bugged rivalry ending, it's Justice who forcefully takes control of Anders and plants/detonates the bomb. At that point, he acknowledges Justice as a demon he cannot control, and he practically begs Hawke to kill him.

The templar ending is unreconcilable with Anders on the friendship path, but it is perfectly believable on the rivalry path if you accept him as completely mentally broken and in an extreme depressive downswing. Anders is Ketojan; in the wake of the horror and realization of what Justice has made him do, he accepts that he is dangerous and that he did not and does not even have the capacity to understand how dangerous he actually is. He is deferring to Hawke as his "arvaarad", and he agrees to go along with the templars not because he suddenly believes slaughtering innocent mages is right, but because he does not trust his own judgment at that point. I'm sure he would think it abhorrent in a stable mind, but between the fact he is actively fighting Justice for control and the shock from the realization he just blew up a church, he probably believes he is nuts and incapable of making rational decisions. I also doubt his state allowed for any kind of reasoned consideration of his actions and the implications of following Hawke with the templars probably weren't real to him at the time.

I have trouble believing Anders would be able to live with that choice later (i.e. I think he either needs to either kill himself or be executed on the templar path), but him making the decision in the moment given his mental instability at the time isn't much of a stretch.

[Fieryeel]

IanPolaris wrote...

I still don't see it.  The RoA means genocide to all mages in the circle.  Whether you personally agree with this characterization or not, ANDERS clearly thinks this and I don't see him siding with the Templars under any circumstance which is why I hope the ending is NOT fixed.  Having him side with the templars in this case (end of Act 3) would be completely imersion/character breaking.

-Polaris

If you go on full rivalry with him, Anders finally grudgingly agrees that mages were indeed meant to be locked up in the gallows, and that his merger with Justice was wrong. However, Justice then takes over Anders and starts arguing with you, with Anders having absolutely no control, and not being aware of anything Justice said or did.

At the final quest, Justice then takes over Anders completely and blows up the chantry.

Anders will then regain control, and do everything he can(even siding with templars) to make things right again.

[ipgd]

Fieryeel wrote...

If you go on full rivalry with him, Anders finally grudgingly agrees that mages were indeed meant to be locked up in the gallows, and that his merger with Justice was wrong. However, Justice then takes over Anders and starts arguing with you, with Anders having absolutely no control, and not being aware of anything Justice said or did.

He never agrees that mages should be locked up. He does agree that he should try to stop Justice and what he was trying to do with the Chantry, but he (obviously) isn't able to.

[Ryzaki]

ipgd wrote...
He never agrees that mages should be locked up. He does agree that he should try to stop Justice and what he was trying to do with the Chantry, but he (obviously) isn't able to.

True. That vid is specifically for a romance however. 

He is far more determined to stop the bomb when he's *not* in romance for some reason. Instead of saying he can't stop anything he vows to find a way to fix it. 

Which to me ties in with him siding with the templars. But of course YMMV. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 14 mai 2011 - 07:25 .

[Augustei]

IanPolaris wrote...

bleetman wrote...

If you're at full friendship and try to get him to help you alongside the Templars, he refuses. If you let him go, he turns up later at the Gallows and tries to kill you.

If you're at full rivalry and do the same, he should begrudgingly agree to it, but the game bugs and assumes he's a friend, so he refuses.

I hope they don't change that.  Anders refusing is a feature not a bug IMO and about the only part of Act III that makes sense.  Anders in a large part IS the cause of mages.  I can not see him side with slaughting all mages (esp when he KNOWS they are innocent) for any reason especially when he is ready and willing to give up his own life.  How are you going to force him to do this?  Kill him?  He'll take death first which IMO is completely in character and understandable.

-Polaris

Rivaling anders loosens justice's grip on him, Anders is selfish like he says he used to be... Conveniently before he was possessed. He doesn't care for the mages plight to the point where he will completely risk his own life trying to help them Justice just pushes him to that area of thought. Not to mention he says the mages pulling away from the chantry is a bad idea and a receipe for disaster..

I wouldn't judge anders's opinions on anything from his actions and words in DA2 since pretty much everything he says and does is only really just what Justice says and does in Anders body. Ready and willing to give up his own life? Take death first? Only because he has no choice and is possessed. Heck he didn't even want to blow up the chantry and push the revolution foward as he displays how reluctant he is in questioning beliefs on the rival side

[LobselVith8]

ipgd wrote...

"Breaking his character" is pretty much the entire point of the rivalry path.

On the rivalry path, Anders is extremely unstable. In the bugged rivalry ending, it's Justice who forcefully takes control of Anders and plants/detonates the bomb. At that point, he acknowledges Justice as a demon he cannot control, and he practically begs Hawke to kill him.

Except Meredith declared the execution of every enchanter, mage, and apprentice in the Circle of Kirkwall for an act Anders (and Justice) are responsible for. I don't see him realistically deciding that the murder of every mage should be committed.

ipgd wrote...

The templar ending is unreconcilable with Anders on the friendship path, but it is perfectly believable on the rivalry path if you accept him as completely mentally broken and in an extreme depressive downswing. Anders is Ketojan; in the wake of the horror and realization of what Justice has made him do, he accepts that he is dangerous and that he did not and does not even have the capacity to understand how dangerous he actually is. He is deferring to Hawke as his "arvaarad", and he agrees to go along with the templars not because he suddenly believes slaughtering innocent mages is right, but because he does not trust his own judgment at that point.

The problem is, whether he trusts his own judgement or not, it's still Hawke deciding to side with the templars and kill the mages for an act Anders is responsible for. He might not trust his own judgement, but it's out of place for him to decide that every mage should pay with their lives for something he is responsible for.

ipgd wrote...

I'm sure he would think it abhorrent in a stable mind, but between the fact he is actively fighting Justice for control and the shock from the realization he just blew up a church, he probably believes he is nuts and incapable of making rational decisions. I also doubt his state allowed for any kind of reasoned consideration of his actions and the implications of following Hawke with the templars probably weren't real to him at the time.

The implication of killing the mages is the reason why Anders will attack Hawke on Friendship, and I don't see his "blackout" causing him enough doubt to decide to side with a pro-templar Hawke.

ipgd wrote...

I have trouble believing Anders would be able to live with that choice later (i.e. I think he either needs to either kill himself or be executed on the templar path), but him making the decision in the moment given his mental instability at the time isn't much of a stretch.

I think it's a pretty big stretch, personally. For me, it's OOC for Anders.

[ipgd]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Except Meredith declared the execution of every enchanter, mage, and apprentice in the Circle of Kirkwall for an act Anders (and Justice) are responsible for. I don't see him realistically deciding that the murder of every mage should be committed.

The problem is, whether he trusts his own judgement or not, it's still Hawke deciding to side with the templars and kill the mages for an act Anders is responsible for. He might not trust his own judgement, but it's out of place for him to decide that every mage should pay with their lives for something he is responsible for.

He's practically having a mental breakdown on the proper rivalry ending. No, it doesn't make sense on the bugged rivalry ending where all the dialogue assumes he was on the friendship side and he isn't freaking out, but that is a bug. What is sane or rational or "realistic" doesn't have much bearing when you are crazy.

I'm not saying it's a smart decision (when has Anders ever made smart decisions?), but it's one I can see Rivalry Anders making (read: not thinking about his actions and deferring to Hawke). Because the entire path is dedicated to completely breaking his mind and he is crazy.

The implication of killing the mages is the reason why Anders will attack Hawke on Friendship, and I don't see his "blackout" causing him enough doubt to decide to side with a pro-templar Hawke.

Anders is an entirely different person on the rivalry path. Friendship Anders is manic, lucid and concordant with Justice (and, in a sense, cannibalized by him); Rivalry Anders is depressive, unstable and actively fighting a losing battle against Justice for control. He is in just the kind of state of mind where you make horrible decisions that you regret.

Modifié par ipgd, 14 mai 2011 - 08:01 .

[Aigyl]

Here's dialogue where Anders will side with the Templars:

www.youtube.com/watch

Rival Anders does not want a violent revolution. He wants to stop the war before it starts. Makes sense to me.

EDIT: Woops, already been posted

Modifié par Aigyl, 14 mai 2011 - 08:15 .

[IanPolaris]

It still makes no sense for EITHER Anders or Justice to agree to slaughter all mages for something they didn't do. Whether you think it's genocide or not (and I happen to), BOTH clearly regard it as such.

It's totally out of character no matter what which is why I hope it's not changed. I never thought a patch would make Act III even worse than it is, but this would do it.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Aigyl wrote...

Here's dialogue where Anders will side with the Templars:



Rival Anders does not want a violent revolution. He wants to stop the war before it starts. Makes sense to me.

By killing his fellow mages for something they didn't do?  That's not the Anders OR Justice I know.

-Polaris

[ipgd]

IanPolaris wrote...

It still makes no sense for EITHER Anders or Justice to agree to slaughter all mages for something they didn't do. Whether you think it's genocide or not (and I happen to), BOTH clearly regard it as such.

It's totally out of character no matter what which is why I hope it's not changed. I never thought a patch would make Act III even worse than it is, but this would do it.

-Polaris

You know people are capable of doing things they otherwise wouldn't in states of extreme emotional distress, right?

[Rifneno]

IanPolaris wrote...

It still makes no sense for EITHER Anders or Justice to agree to slaughter all mages for something they didn't do. Whether you think it's genocide or not (and I happen to), BOTH clearly regard it as such.

It's totally out of character no matter what which is why I hope it's not changed. I never thought a patch would make Act III even worse than it is, but this would do it.

-Polaris

I agree with this completely.  I have trouble even finding a way to make the whole mess make less sense than Anders helping execute the Right of Annulment.  Having Sebastian bomb the Chantry instead?  That might make less sense.  Maybe.

[Rifneno]

ipgd wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

It still makes no sense for EITHER Anders or Justice to agree to slaughter all mages for something they didn't do. Whether you think it's genocide or not (and I happen to), BOTH clearly regard it as such.

It's totally out of character no matter what which is why I hope it's not changed. I never thought a patch would make Act III even worse than it is, but this would do it.

-Polaris

You know people are capable of doing things they otherwise wouldn't in states of extreme emotional distress, right?

And you know that extreme emotional distress is when Justice can take over Harbinger style, right?

[Ryzaki]

Aigyl wrote...

Here's dialogue where Anders will side with the Templars:

www.youtube.com/watch

Rival Anders does not want a violent revolution. He wants to stop the war before it starts. Makes sense to me.

EDIT: Woops, already been posted

Makes sense to me as well. 

He wanted to fix the mess he made. Best way was to nip it in the bud. A thousand deaths now vs a million ones later. A common choice in war. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 14 mai 2011 - 08:21 .

[Aigyl]

IanPolaris wrote...
By killing his fellow mages for something they didn't do?  That's not the Anders OR Justice I know.

-Polaris

Yeppers. As other folks have pointed out Rival Anders is in a very bad state and is looking to Hawke for guidance.

Siding with the Templars can be viewed as a pragmatic choice to attempt to stop the war before it breaks out and keep the status quo. A failed attempt, but attempt nevertheless.

[IanPolaris]

Ryzaki wrote...

Aigyl wrote...

Here's dialogue where Anders will side with the Templars:

www.youtube.com/watch

Rival Anders does not want a violent revolution. He wants to stop the war before it starts. Makes sense to me.

EDIT: Woops, already been posted

Makes sense to me as well. 

He wanted to fix the mess he made. Best way was to nip it in the bud. A thousand deaths now vs a million ones later. A common choice in war. 

Anders does NOT think, that way.  He never has.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Aigyl wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
By killing his fellow mages for something they didn't do?  That's not the Anders OR Justice I know.

-Polaris

Yeppers. As other folks have pointed out Rival Anders is in a very bad state and is looking to Hawke for guidance.

Siding with the Templars can be viewed as a pragmatic choice to attempt to stop the war before it breaks out and keep the status quo. A failed attempt, but attempt nevertheless.

Which is completely out of character for him and actually ruins what little actually made sense in Act III.  Anders should never side with the Templars.  Ever.

-Polaris

Edit:  If nothing else, Justice would take over completely and you'd have to kill Anders anyway.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 14 mai 2011 - 08:27 .