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[Black Raptor]

Bad King wrote...

Actually it shows a shot of two of the original tentacled protheans, and then straight afterwards a shot of two insectoid collectors standing in exactly the same places (in other words the two original ones had transformed). Looks to me like the protheans storing information about how their species was being transformed.

www.youtube.com/watch

They're not getting transformed, its just your vision was upgraded with more information to show that collectors were protheans and that is just how your (Shepards) mind interpretted it. 

[Bad King]

Black Raptor wrote...

Bad King wrote...

Actually it shows a shot of two of the original tentacled protheans, and then straight afterwards a shot of two insectoid collectors standing in exactly the same places (in other words the two original ones had transformed). Looks to me like the protheans storing information about how their species was being transformed.

www.youtube.com/watch

They're not getting transformed, its just your vision was upgraded with more information to show that collectors were protheans and that is just how your (Shepards) mind interpretted it. 

Is this ever confirmed in game or is it just your take on the vision?

[Black Raptor]

Bad King wrote...

Black Raptor wrote...

Bad King wrote...

Actually it shows a shot of two of the original tentacled protheans, and then straight afterwards a shot of two insectoid collectors standing in exactly the same places (in other words the two original ones had transformed). Looks to me like the protheans storing information about how their species was being transformed.

www.youtube.com/watch

They're not getting transformed, its just your vision was upgraded with more information to show that collectors were protheans and that is just how your (Shepards) mind interpretted it. 

Is this ever confirmed in game or is it just your take on the vision?

You can't just switch species that quickly. EDI says they undergo extensive genetic rewrite which implies its over a long period of time. 
The Reapers wouldn't have instantly realised that the Protheans were incompatible with reaper construction either, and Mordin supplies additional information showing the extent of the change from Protheans all pointing towards it being a long timescale.

[Bad King]

Black Raptor wrote...

Bad King wrote...

Black Raptor wrote...

Bad King wrote...

Actually it shows a shot of two of the original tentacled protheans, and then straight afterwards a shot of two insectoid collectors standing in exactly the same places (in other words the two original ones had transformed). Looks to me like the protheans storing information about how their species was being transformed.

www.youtube.com/watch

They're not getting transformed, its just your vision was upgraded with more information to show that collectors were protheans and that is just how your (Shepards) mind interpretted it. 

Is this ever confirmed in game or is it just your take on the vision?

You can't just switch species that quickly. EDI says they undergo extensive genetic rewrite which implies its over a long period of time. 
The Reapers wouldn't have instantly realised that the Protheans were incompatible with reaper construction either, and Mordin supplies additional information showing the extent of the change from Protheans all pointing towards it being a long timescale.

Except the vision was made by protheans (probably a small number of survivors who had witnessed the collectors) and was most likely them trying to show the transformation over a short length of time (I doubt it was real footage). Compare it for example to a real life animation of evolution in action- there are animations on youtube of single celled organisms evolving all the way to humans (a proses which took billions of years) but which is compressed into a 5 minute video.

[Nashiktal]

aimlessgun wrote...

You'd think there would be some indication in the ruins. The architecture would be different for different species physiology.

Though it is a good question as to why the protheans are alone atop the galaxy. You have to wonder what their history is. I suspect the prothean empire was built on the bodies of lesser species as they spread across the galaxy in a sea of blood.

Actually what little evidence we have points to the protheans being the stereotypical "Advanced but lonely" race. Alone in the galaxy, so they decided to try and find species with the potential to be sentient.

[Black Raptor]

Bad King wrote...

Except the vision was made by protheans (probably a small number of survivors who had witnessed the collectors) and was most likely them trying to show the transformation over a short length of time (I doubt it was real footage). Compare it for example to a real life animation of evolution in action- there are animations on youtube of single celled organisms evolving all the way to humans (a proses which took billions of years) but which is compressed into a 5 minute video.

For a start, you're now contradicting yourself by saying this "footage" proves it being a short length of time by comparing it to an animation of something which takes 3.5 billion years.

Anyway, its not like the Reapers just fly into the galaxy and take a look at the protheans and think "you know what would make these guys better? 4 eyes and no digestive system. Lets also get rid of the superfluous DNA and 3 chromosomes for the lulz" and with a wave of a tentacle thing, it was so. 
If the Reapers could really do stuff like that, then Sovereign would've had no trouble taking the Citadel (You know what would make you better at your job, Shepard? NO LUNGS! *waggle tentacle*) 

No, what actually happened was the Reapers come in. Reap. Realise the protheans are incompatible (this is centuries later) and think about what to do with the surviving members. (most of the protheans now being unusable goo) So the Reapers take their indoctrinated slaves and turn them into Collectors. The only surviving members of Protheans now are sleeping on Ilos and have no knowledge of this process. 

Shepard's extra vision you get is just the revalation that collectors used to be protheans. A bit of extra information added to an existing memory (lets not forget that the exact same image(s) appear in the ME1 vision without the change into collectors), not actual footage of what happened. 

[elearon1]

Here's a theory for you ... what if the Prothean statue you see in the first game is of an elderly Prothean after it had shed its carapace ... that is to say, what if they looked like Collectors in their youth, but in old age shed the outer shell and what you see there is what remains?

Considering how most cultures make statues of their elderly and important personages, it makes sense to suggest the Prothean you're seeing there falls into that category.

[Bad King]

Black Raptor wrote...

Bad King wrote...

Except the vision was made by protheans (probably a small number of survivors who had witnessed the collectors) and was most likely them trying to show the transformation over a short length of time (I doubt it was real footage). Compare it for example to a real life animation of evolution in action- there are animations on youtube of single celled organisms evolving all the way to humans (a proses which took billions of years) but which is compressed into a 5 minute video.

For a start, you're now contradicting yourself by saying this "footage" proves it being a short length of time by comparing it to an animation of something which takes 3.5 billion years.

Anyway, its not like the Reapers just fly into the galaxy and take a look at the protheans and think "you know what would make these guys better? 4 eyes and no digestive system. Lets also get rid of the superfluous DNA and 3 chromosomes for the lulz" and with a wave of a tentacle thing, it was so. 
If the Reapers could really do stuff like that, then Sovereign would've had no trouble taking the Citadel (You know what would make you better at your job, Shepard? NO LUNGS! *waggle tentacle*) 

No, what actually happened was the Reapers come in. Reap. Realise the protheans are incompatible (this is centuries later) and think about what to do with the surviving members. (most of the protheans now being unusable goo) So the Reapers take their indoctrinated slaves and turn them into Collectors. The only surviving members of Protheans now are sleeping on Ilos and have no knowledge of this process. 

Shepard's extra vision you get is just the revalation that collectors used to be protheans. A bit of extra information added to an existing memory (lets not forget that the exact same image(s) appear in the ME1 vision without the change into collectors), not actual footage of what happened. 

I'm not contradicting myself- I never said that the transformation would have been done in a short amount of time! It may have taken decades, it may even have taken centuries. But we know that the vision would have to be made by prothean survivors, how else would this extra information about the collectors be stored? A small population of protheans could have slipped under the reapers' nets for a while giving them time to create the vision before they were discovered and killed (or died out naturally).

[naledgeborn]

elearon1 wrote...

Here's a theory for you ... what if the Prothean statue you see in the first game is of an elderly Prothean after it had shed its carapace ... that is to say, what if they looked like Collectors in their youth, but in old age shed the outer shell and what you see there is what remains?

Considering how most cultures make statues of their elderly and important personages, it makes sense to suggest the Prothean you're seeing there falls into that category.

Wow. Not bad.

[SSJ5]

Black Raptor wrote...
3)That weird vision was just to emphasise the point that Collectors and Protheans are one and the same.

I see zero sense in this. Why would you consfuse the player by pulling something like that. If it was stated outright, it needs no "emphasising". I find it more likely that Protheans had several species. Why does a logical things like a species evolving on one world prevent them from having subspecies? Looking at how some subspecies on Earth are vastly different from one another, it becomes apparent that Protheans could have taken that evolutionary path.

[marshalleck]

SSJ5 wrote...
 Why does a logical things like a species evolving on one world prevent them from having subspecies? 

Why? Because one look at our own history shows two sentient species (hell, even cultures within a single species) rarely co-exist peacefully for any considerable period of time. One dominates the other and either assimilates them or pushes them to extinction. That's why you don't have any Neandarthal friends. 

I suppose you could shoot back and say maybe that's just Earth, but my response would be to point out that most aliens in Mass Effect are just humans with funky skin color and superficial physiological differences. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 15 mai 2011 - 02:06 .

[SSJ5]

marshalleck wrote...

SSJ5 wrote...
 Why does a logical things like a species evolving on one world prevent them from having subspecies? 

Why? Because one look at our own history shows two sentient species (hell, even cultures within a single species) rarely co-exist peacefully for any considerable period of time. One dominates the other and either assimilates them or pushes them to extinction. That's why you don't have any Neandarthal friends. 

I suppose you could shoot back and say maybe that's just Earth, but my response would be to point out that most aliens in Mass Effect are just humans with funky skin color and superficial physiological differences. 

Well, it really is just Earth. Having multiple sapient species doesn't have to ensure that they will destroy each other. For example a planet twice as large as Earth, could have many smaller continents separated by oceans. Species could evolve on these without any hindrance. And we are assuming that they are naturally destructive, which doesn't have to be the case. Two species could just as well coexist, as it was said that Prothean mindset is vastly different than human.

As for alien design, its easier to make them humanoid. They are more relatable and can be used in more ways in gameplay.

[Black Raptor]

Bad King wrote...

I'm not contradicting myself- I never said that the transformation would have been done in a short amount of time! It may have taken decades, it may even have taken centuries. But we know that the vision would have to be made by prothean survivors, how else would this extra information about the collectors be stored? A small population of protheans could have slipped under the reapers' nets for a while giving them time to create the vision before they were discovered and killed (or died out naturally).

The images you get are almost identical to the ones you get from the complete beacon in ME1. It is the same vision. However, since it's part of Shepard's memory, not just a recollection of a film he'd watched, seeing the same vision again meant that his own mind changed the image due to new information. Instead of a blurry image, he gets a clearer image. 
No prothean had to be alive to change the recording, it's all in Shepard's mind. 

[Black Raptor]

SSJ5 wrote...

Black Raptor wrote...
3)That weird vision was just to emphasise the point that Collectors and Protheans are one and the same.

I see zero sense in this. Why would you consfuse the player by pulling something like that. If it was stated outright, it needs no "emphasising". I find it more likely that Protheans had several species. Why does a logical things like a species evolving on one world prevent them from having subspecies? Looking at how some subspecies on Earth are vastly different from one another, it becomes apparent that Protheans could have taken that evolutionary path.

All their statues look the same, nobody makes any comments on the possiblity of Protheans being more than 1 species, they come from a single world which implies that they are 1 species, and they are all refered to as Protheans.

The vision in ME2 is Shepard's own mind updating the vision in ME1. 

[SSJ5]

Black Raptor wrote...

SSJ5 wrote...

Black Raptor wrote...
3)That weird vision was just to emphasise the point that Collectors and Protheans are one and the same.

I see zero sense in this. Why would you consfuse the player by pulling something like that. If it was stated outright, it needs no "emphasising". I find it more likely that Protheans had several species. Why does a logical things like a species evolving on one world prevent them from having subspecies? Looking at how some subspecies on Earth are vastly different from one another, it becomes apparent that Protheans could have taken that evolutionary path.

All their statues look the same, nobody makes any comments on the possiblity of Protheans being more than 1 species, they come from a single world which implies that they are 1 species, and they are all refered to as Protheans.

The vision in ME2 is Shepard's own mind updating the vision in ME1. 

All the statues? We've only seen the ones on Ilos.

Updating species (through a vision no less) makes no sense. Why would they want to do that? Did someone just randomly say, "Hey you know what would be a good idea? Lets put Collectors in a flashback, just to add so much more to that obvious fact , which we already made" I don't see this happening. It was said outright what they are. Why would they be in a flashback of a PROTHEAN ARTIFACT. Collectors did not exist while Protheans were still producing technology. 

Sheppard has the Cypher. He is getiing information as clear as he should. Why would you leave a warning beacon open for interpretation?

Modifié par SSJ5, 15 mai 2011 - 04:11 .

[Black Raptor]

SSJ5 wrote...


All the statues? We've only seen the ones on Ilos.

And there were lots of them and they all looked the same. 

SSJ5 wrote...
Updating species (through a vision no less) makes no sense. Why would they want to do that? Did someone just randomly say, "Hey you know what would be a good idea? Lets put Collectors in a flashback, just to add so much more to that obvious fact , which we already made" I don't see this happening. It was said outright what they are. Why would they be in a flashback of a PROTHEAN ARTIFACT. Collectors did not exist while Protheans were still producing technology. 

Sheppard has the Cypher. He is getiing information as clear as he should. Why would you leave a warning beacon open for interpretation?

The beacon isn't open for interpretation. It is Shepard doing the update as the Prothean beacon shows Protheans being reaped. The beacon in ME2 shows part of the exact same vision from ME1 showing the Protheans being reaped, however Shepard now knew they were now Collectors hence why the image changed from a prothean to a collector. 

What are you interpretting it as? If it wasn't open for interpretation, how are you getting an image of a prothean (as they looked on Ilos) to an image of a Collector (which we know were Protheans) to suddenly mean there are multiple species of Prothean and somehow, despite never being mentioned anywhere in the game, this seems more plausible? 

[SSJ5]

Black Raptor wrote...

SSJ5 wrote...


All the statues? We've only seen the ones on Ilos.

And there were lots of them and they all looked the same. 

SSJ5 wrote...
Updating species (through a vision no less) makes no sense. Why would they want to do that? Did someone just randomly say, "Hey you know what would be a good idea? Lets put Collectors in a flashback, just to add so much more to that obvious fact , which we already made" I don't see this happening. It was said outright what they are. Why would they be in a flashback of a PROTHEAN ARTIFACT. Collectors did not exist while Protheans were still producing technology. 

Sheppard has the Cypher. He is getiing information as clear as he should. Why would you leave a warning beacon open for interpretation?

The beacon isn't open for interpretation. It is Shepard doing the update as the Prothean beacon shows Protheans being reaped. The beacon in ME2 shows part of the exact same vision from ME1 showing the Protheans being reaped, however Shepard now knew they were now Collectors hence why the image changed from a prothean to a collector. 

What are you interpretting it as? If it wasn't open for interpretation, how are you getting an image of a prothean (as they looked on Ilos) to an image of a Collector (which we know were Protheans) to suddenly mean there are multiple species of Prothean and somehow, despite never being mentioned anywhere in the game, this seems more plausible? 

Images are seen as they are. As they were implanted in the beacon. Mind of the recipient plays no part in imagery. This was best shown when Shepard could not understand what it all meant before he received the Cypher. The timeline doesn't allow for Protheans to have knowledge of Collectors. I understand what you are trying to say, but I think it is just an unnecessary confusion for the player (as there was a whole mission that confirmed that, it would be very redundant), and that it is in fact another loose end for which we will get an explanation in ME3. I gave one option for it. It doesn't have to be true, but its a possibility.

Modifié par SSJ5, 15 mai 2011 - 08:35 .

[Epocolypze]

 The statues on Ilos looked alot like the husks. maybe they were statues of them, since the Protheans were a science driven species and easily could have created them, and they wanted to show off their great invention. the reapers took the tech after the purge. that place was a science facility, so that could be the husks... or a statue of humans, one of their greatest investments. either way, the protheans looked alot like the collectors, even the elderly, who looked like the general.

[100k]

aimlessgun wrote...

You'd think there would be some indication in the ruins. The architecture would be different for different species physiology.

Though it is a good question as to why the protheans are alone atop the galaxy. You have to wonder what their history is. I suspect the prothean empire was built on the bodies of lesser species as they spread across the galaxy in a sea of blood.

Exactly what I was thinking. The protheans probably became the dominating race 50,000 years ago, and wiped out or enslaved all other races as they spread.

[SkittlesKat96]

Its possible, there would have been more species than just the Protheans, maybe one of the species used a mass relay, met up with the protheans then mated or merged with them or something

[thetruefreemo]

I like this idea. Sell it for Bioware points. I think the Broker would pay nicely.

[MonkeyKaboom]

Or maybe you all are thinking too hard about this and the devs just wanted to change the structure for artistic reasons. This seems much more likely. Giant bug men seem somewhat more spooky than scrawny tentacly jellyfish heads. Besides there's already enough tentacles in this game. So they just hack up the original vision on ME1 to fit the new look.

[shnizzler93]

That's one hell of a necro

[HTTP 404]

shnizzler93 wrote...

That's one hell of a necro

2 weeks isn't really one hell of a necro...hell a thread of mine was necro'd from a year ago once.

anyways, I think the prothean and how they look as collector was a simple retcon.  those statues could be of a different species that was native to ilos.  I highly doubt the protheans are native to that planet.

[sympathy4saren]

An assertion based upon speculation is merely conjecture.