71 réponses à ce sujet

[Manic Sheep]

BOTH, not all combat gear needs to look the same. It can be unique, fit the situation, and match the character without going rule of cool on you.

I don't demand super realism tho high and heels bare chests push my tolerance. I would prefer they were relatively realistic and looked the part. I prefer it when squadmates have their own model and armor instead of using generic.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 16 mai 2011 - 05:22 .

[Mr. MannlyMan]

The main problem is that ME1's aesthetic followed the lore and the IP much more consistently than ME2 did (chalk that up to lack of communication between the writers and the artists of ME2, I guess).

If this was an anime with a long history of impractical and sexualized costumes, with no apparent lore regarding combat suits or shielding tech, then nobody would be the wiser, and most people would probably be joking about the ridiculous outfits, not outright criticizing them for the most part.

The fact that Bioware developed a clear and very concise lore for the universe, with in-depth explanations for the logic behind the various technologies, AND followed this lore closely with the aesthetic appearance of the first game, gives them nearly ZERO excuse for the approach taken in the second game. Zero.

We're not opposed to the impractical outfits because they wouldn't work in the real world; we're opposed to them because they make absolutely zero sense for the IP, and it gives the impression that Bioware doesn't even have a firm grasp of the universe they themselves created. Seriously, when you're crafting an IP that's as detailed as Mass Effect, you DON'T want to see that sort of thing change from one game to another (especially if they're both a part of the same trilogy). You don't really want to see that shift in any trilogy, really.


So, practical combat suits that may/may not reflect the characters' personalities, and casual in-character outfits that really let them express themselves for when they're on the Normandy. That's all. DONE. Everyone is happy. Congrats, Bioware, on solving a very simple problem.

Modifié par Mr. MannlyMan, 16 mai 2011 - 05:18 .

[Terror_K]

Mr. MannlyMan wrote...

The main problem is that ME1's aesthetic followed the lore and the IP much more consistently than ME2 did (chalk that up to lack of communication between the writers and the artists of ME2, I guess).

If this was an anime with a long history of impractical and sexualized costumes, with no apparent lore regarding combat suits or shielding tech, then nobody would be the wiser, and most people would probably be joking about the ridiculous outfits, not outright criticizing them for the most part.

The fact that Bioware developed a clear and very concise lore for the universe, with in-depth explanations for the logic behind the various technologies, AND followed this lore closely with the aesthetic appearance of the first game, gives them nearly ZERO excuse for the approach taken in the second game. Zero.

We're not opposed to the impractical outfits because they wouldn't work in the real world; we're opposed to them because they make absolutely zero sense for the IP, and it gives the impression that Bioware doesn't even have a firm grasp of the universe they themselves created. Seriously, when you're crafting an IP that's as detailed as Mass Effect, you DON'T want to see that sort of thing change from one game to another (especially if they're both a part of the same trilogy). You don't really want to see that shift in any trilogy, really.


So, practical combat suits that reflect the characters' personalities, and casual in-character outfits that really let them express themselves for when they're on the Normandy. That's all. DONE. Everyone is happy. Congrats, Bioware, on solving a very simple problem.

Yep. You pretty much hit the nail on the head.

If only BioWare would actually listen. I guess we'll see (hopefully sooner rather than later).

[diskoh]

I don't think heavy armor is realistic OR practical. There's a reason soldiers don't dress like knights anymore.

[Terror_K]

diskoh wrote...

I don't think heavy armor is realistic OR practical. There's a reason soldiers don't dress like knights anymore.

To requote myself...

Terror_K wrote...

Armour in Mass Effect is designed for harsh, unknown and unpredictable environments and operating in space, which means it's not just armour but also doubles as a space suit, environmental suit, hazmat suit, survival suit, etc. as well. It was designed to be hardy and durable to survive not just bullets, but rough terrain, radiation, toxins/acids, extreme temperatures, etc. Modern military only have to deal with what's on the Earth, not strange planets, and usually switch to other specialty outfits when dealing with specific issues, while the armour in Mass Effect also handles them in most cases (as I listed above). A few comments and notes in ME1 seem to suggest that the difference between wearing bulkier armour over lighter stuff (or none) is the difference between a few minor holes being put in you and being shredded on the inside with a nice large exit wound to boot (I can't remember the lines exactly, but there's some banter between Ashley and Kaidan specifically regarding this where he comments on asari commandos and Ashley talks about why she'd prefer to stick with heavier armour).

Modifié par Terror_K, 16 mai 2011 - 05:22 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

diskoh wrote...

I don't think heavy armor is realistic OR practical. There's a reason soldiers don't dress like knights anymore.

Nowadays you can make armor that looks like "heavy" armor but is actually light. It's easy, you just use lightweight plastics and foam rubber.

I assume that most "heavy" armor in Mass Effect is only 10-20lbs heavier than the "light" stuff. A flak vest is pretty heavy, and it takes a while to get used to the weight, but it's a modern compromise. People still wear flak jackets and reinforced panels on other parts of their bodies, even if it is heavy and hot, because the added protection is worth it.

You can buy armored protection of different levels. Here is a site that offers both full-on flak jackets and clothing that cleverly hides the fact that it is bulletproof.

Basically, you're choosing different levels of bullet-proofness with different weights. I don't think the weights are equivalent to traditional suits of armor, and nothing implies that they would be. There's one cerberus DLC suit that says it's significantly heavier than the others, I can't remember if that has a specifically listed weight, but that implies that not all heavy armor is the same weight.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 16 mai 2011 - 05:27 .

[jojon2se]

JakePT wrote...

Mass Effect fans have a very strange idea of what constitutes 'realism'.

For some reason that completely escapes me they seem to think that Shepard's ridiculously bulky armor is somehow more 'realistic' than Miranda's skimpy jumpsuit. They're both equally ridiculous! There's nothing at all realistic about 'Heavy Armor' in the ME universe. Look at any picture of a modern soldier, they aren't wearing a futuristic version of Medieval plate armor. They're using much more efficient, light and flexible materials. I don't see them wearing pauldrons or helms.

This silly notion is probably due to the significant cross-fandom between sci-fi and fantasy which has given them a notion that heavy medieval plate armor is cooler or more realistic, despite the fact it was designed for a completely different kind of fighting with different weapons.

Obviously Mass Effect's combat and technology is very different to todays, but I still fail to see how that justifies armor technology and design reverting to 15th century Europe.

Yes, "relatively" light and flexible, practical, materials, much like in ME1. It becomes a little bulkier in space, because it doubles as an environmental suit and ME1 heavy armour is outright much like a bomb suit.

I cringe a bit every time I see Shepard's ME2 armor, with its oversized hardshell pauldrons floating several inches off his body, World of Warcraft-style (...and DragonAge-style too, for that matter), waiting to be torn off by a glancing impact.

Funny that somebody cited the Matrix to justify high heels, by the way; a film that is ALL about style.

[Mr. MannlyMan]

diskoh wrote...

I don't think heavy armor is realistic OR practical. There's a reason soldiers don't dress like knights anymore.

Please see my post above.

The fact that armor can be MOTORIZED in the Mass Effect universe means that wearing heavy armor could, in theory, make you more agile/stronger than if you went without. Obviously, there's a reason that this would be beneficial in combat.

[diskoh]

None of that changes what I said. Wearing a suit of armor might protect you from toxins, but that's not going to do any good when you're stuck because you can't step over the half-wall that just popped up in front of you.

The heavy armors like Shepard's are unrealistic, in my opinion. When you've got faster than light projectiles, ceramic plating is really not that much of a difference. The best option that suits the tech in the ME universe is light armor like Jacob wears, combined with the shield tech and breathing apparatii they wore in ME2. That takes care of everything you mentioned, and is actually better for rough terrain because of mobility.

If you don't believe me, let's meet up somewhere and set up an obstacle course. You wear a full body suit of heavy armor, I'll wear like some sweats or something, and we'll see who makes it through.

[diskoh]

Mr. MannlyMan wrote...

diskoh wrote...

I don't think heavy armor is realistic OR practical. There's a reason soldiers don't dress like knights anymore.

Please see my post above.

The fact that armor can be MOTORIZED in the Mass Effect universe means that wearing heavy armor could, in theory, make you more agile/stronger than if you went without. Obviously, there's a reason that this would be beneficial in combat.

Is it motorized? Did I miss that in the codex? If I did then I'll take back what I said, but I don't remember it. Can you link or quote?

[Manic Sheep]

jojon2se wrote...

JakePT wrote...

Mass Effect fans have a very strange idea of what constitutes 'realism'.

For some reason that completely escapes me they seem to think that Shepard's ridiculously bulky armor is somehow more 'realistic' than Miranda's skimpy jumpsuit. They're both equally ridiculous! There's nothing at all realistic about 'Heavy Armor' in the ME universe. Look at any picture of a modern soldier, they aren't wearing a futuristic version of Medieval plate armor. They're using much more efficient, light and flexible materials. I don't see them wearing pauldrons or helms.

This silly notion is probably due to the significant cross-fandom between sci-fi and fantasy which has given them a notion that heavy medieval plate armor is cooler or more realistic, despite the fact it was designed for a completely different kind of fighting with different weapons.

Obviously Mass Effect's combat and technology is very different to todays, but I still fail to see how that justifies armor technology and design reverting to 15th century Europe.

Yes, "relatively" light and flexible, practical, materials, much like in ME1. It becomes a little bulkier in space, because it doubles as an environmental suit and ME1 heavy armour is outright much like a bomb suit.

I cringe a bit every time I see Shepard's ME2 armor, with its oversized hardshell pauldrons floating several inches off his body, World of Warcraft-style (...and DragonAge-style too, for that matter), waiting to be torn off by a glancing impact.

Funny that somebody cited the Matrix to justify high heels, by the way; a film that is ALL about style.

I kinda agree with this, They went a little overboard. I’m hoping to the return of some on the ME1 style medium and heavy armour.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 16 mai 2011 - 05:39 .

[Hathur]

Personally preferred the more realistic (but not entirely so) looking armor / outfits of ME1... but not necessarily in an aesthetic sense but just in that when characters were in hard vacuum / toxic enviros, they'd be hardsuited and pressurized against it.

I'd have no problem with more stylized outfits.. so long as they made sense when a character was put into hazardous environments.

[diskoh]

The argument for practicality is one thing, I can understand it, when you're fighting a war you need armor, that's fine.

The argument I hate is that not having it is "oversexualizing." This is most often brought up in regards to Ashley's new look, but never ever is it mentioned that she's wearing basically the exact same thing as Jacob. I really don't recall anyone saying "OMG Jacob is a sl*t, he's wearing a catsuit!" No, it was a heavy leather combat outfit, just like Ashley's. Just like all the X-Men movies; it's what's in style for this type of modern combat entertainment.

And face it, the Mass Effect universe is a sexy universe. There's nothing wrong with that. A lot of the characters are sexy, the whole concept is sexy. It's fun, embrace it. There's nothing wrong with some sexiness.

Modifié par diskoh, 16 mai 2011 - 05:44 .

[Dave666]

diskoh wrote...

Mr. MannlyMan wrote...

diskoh wrote...

I don't think heavy armor is realistic OR practical. There's a reason soldiers don't dress like knights anymore.

Please see my post above.

The fact that armor can be MOTORIZED in the Mass Effect universe means that wearing heavy armor could, in theory, make you more agile/stronger than if you went without. Obviously, there's a reason that this would be beneficial in combat.

Is it motorized? Did I miss that in the codex? If I did then I'll take back what I said, but I don't remember it. Can you link or quote?

I believe that this is what was meant. Scroll down to Motorized Joints and tell me, could you imagine being able to install those in a catsuit, or Jack's nipple belt?

[Mr. MannlyMan]

diskoh wrote...

Mr. MannlyMan wrote...

diskoh wrote...

I don't think heavy armor is realistic OR practical. There's a reason soldiers don't dress like knights anymore.

Please see my post above.

The fact that armor can be MOTORIZED in the Mass Effect universe means that wearing heavy armor could, in theory, make you more agile/stronger than if you went without. Obviously, there's a reason that this would be beneficial in combat.

Is it motorized? Did I miss that in the codex? If I did then I'll take back what I said, but I don't remember it. Can you link or quote?

Taken from ME Wiki:

The Kestrel armor system's
shoulder plates house backup capacitors for shield generation.
Artificial muscle fibres based on spider silk reinforce the shoulders,
allowing for more powerful movements.


Artificial muscle fibres controlled by the Kestrel armor system's
central processor allow for both gross motor movements and precision
support of the hands. This steadies aim in a manner compatible with most
firearm autotargeting systems. Additional capacitors for shield
generation are installed on the ulnar side of the forearm.



Plus, in ME1 you can mod you armor with "Motorized Joints" and "Combat Exoskeleton" upgrades, both of which enhance the user's natural movements. There are other pieces of armor in ME2 that are similar to the ones above.

Modifié par Mr. MannlyMan, 16 mai 2011 - 05:56 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

diskoh wrote...

The argument for practicality is one thing, I can understand it, when you're fighting a war you need armor, that's fine.

The argument I hate is that not having it is "oversexualizing." This is most often brought up in regards to Ashley's new look, but never ever is it mentioned that she's wearing basically the exact same thing as Jacob. I really don't recall anyone saying "OMG Jacob is a sl*t, he's wearing a catsuit!" No, it was a heavy leather combat outfit, just like Ashley's. Just like all the X-Men movies; it's what's in style for this type of modern combat entertainment.

And face it, the Mass Effect universe is a sexy universe. There's nothing wrong with that. A lot of the characters are sexy, the whole concept is sexy. It's fun, embrace it. There's nothing wrong with some sexiness.

Most of the main arguments I've heard revolve around SUITS NOT SEALING, when someone in the series is shown as dying in space from an air leak in their suit! I was so annoyed when I took Thane on a planet with almost no atmosphere and he had that stupid chest window open! 

The second most frequent argument is the "high heels are a bad idea during combat" issue. Jacob isn't wearing high heels. If they got rid of those two problems, I think 90% of people would be satisfied. I don't even really care about the high heels.

Kasumi is fine (except for the fact that her suit doesn't seal! Argh!). She is wearing a thin suit, but she has flats on, and her suit looks reasonably airtight. All you would need to add is a Tali-style faceplate in harsh environments.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 16 mai 2011 - 05:53 .

[Hathur]

diskoh wrote...

The argument for practicality is one thing, I can understand it, when you're fighting a war you need armor, that's fine.

The argument I hate is that not having it is "oversexualizing." This is most often brought up in regards to Ashley's new look, but never ever is it mentioned that she's wearing basically the exact same thing as Jacob. I really don't recall anyone saying "OMG Jacob is a sl*t, he's wearing a catsuit!" No, it was a heavy leather combat outfit, just like Ashley's. Just like all the X-Men movies; it's what's in style for this type of modern combat entertainment.

And face it, the Mass Effect universe is a sexy universe. There's nothing wrong with that. A lot of the characters are sexy, the whole concept is sexy. It's fun, embrace it. There's nothing wrong with some sexiness.

Agreed. Besides it's not as if the armor in ME1 wasn't "oversexualizing" .. anyone who's played femshep or looked at Ashley in any armor realizes that it clings quite snugly to their figure.. hell it's practically a borderline wedgie at the back (whether it be male or female in the armor) 

The chestplates in Me1 for females are also just as sexualized as the stuff in ME2... as no actual "realistic" or practical armor would actually ever be moulded to fit / hold a females breasts (creases in armor = no no ... basic aspect of physics that even medieval armor smiths understood.. creases like that are structural weakpoints... I.e. female soldiers in the real world today who wear hard ceramic trauma plates don't have it molded for their breasts, it rests on top / over them identically as it would to a male).

But it's a sci-fi game and having some element of "sexy" is just fine... so long as the bare skin in vacuum thing is accounted for heh.

Modifié par Hathur, 16 mai 2011 - 05:55 .

[Hazheel_Thorn]

It is a "little" stupid. Miranda at the start of the game claiming that "tissue damage is far worse than she originally feared." Due to long time vaccuum and subzero teperatures exposure. And than nearly half of the characters of your crew facing deep space vaccuum and subzero teperatures with only an oxygen mask.
Maybe you can explain jack's and Samara's outfit by a sustained biotic MEfield that keeps the vaccuum at bay, or something, but jacob 's, miranda's and especially Goto's outfit for deep space exploration is just insulting.
They did a good job though on the DLC outfit for Miranda. Only thing missing was the helmet.
And, HIGH HEELS!!!?? Highly trained military characters in a uniform on high heels? Jeeez.

Modifié par Hazheel_Thorn, 16 mai 2011 - 07:24 .

[Silrian]

Terror_K wrote...

Silrian wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

Homer Simpson may be iconic for his blue pants and white shirt ensemble, but he still wore a friggin' space suit when he became an astronaut. And he's a freakin' cartoon character! <_<

But you said it yourself, Homer has signature clothing. In other words it expresses a part of what the character is. And by designating the space suit as an exception, you only confirm this.

Yes, but the latter point still stands. Again, I don't see why we can't have squaddies wearing stuff that is either both practical and iconic, iconic but at least becomes practical when needed, or practical for out in the field while simply iconic for on the Normandy and other safe zones. Heck... even a mix of all of these factors.

The fact is, in real life people generally wear what they like when they can, but still dress properly for the occasion or situation when needed. The same should apply to Mass Effect, because as it is in ME2 it just turns them and the universe into a pathetic joke and comes across as juvenile and careless on the parts of the designers. To me it basically screams, "we don't give a rat's ass about the integrity and consistency of our IP... so long as there are enough people out there who think it's badass!"

You might find it an odd turn of events, but I completely agree with you. Especially because you actually re-stated my point: it's not the realism itself that ultimately ruins it, it's the fact that the clothing choice violates the character's integrity and consistency, because that character is presented as someone who would not make the dubious choice in question. It's a subtle and maybe too trivial difference in focus on what ultimately discredits the game/character. Maybe I should just shut up about it.

[Silrian]

diskoh wrote...

I don't think heavy armor is realistic OR practical. There's a reason soldiers don't dress like knights anymore.

Actually it's a common misbelief that medieval armor hampered Knights. They actually were quite mobile in them and could jump on horses and do head rolls in 'm. You weren't considered a knight if you couldn't jump on a horse easily fully armored. The reason why knights stopped wearing them eventually, is because the skill to craft them got lost over the years and probably because the growing population made armor increasingly too expensive. Or so experts on the matter who gave classes about medieval battle arts told me.

I don't think a parallel between medieval and 22nd century armor is a useful one though, no offense or anything.

[Haventh]

 I voted "I value both uniquenes/memorability as much as realism and practicality in apperance."

[Silrian]

diskoh wrote...

None of that changes what I said. Wearing a suit of armor might protect you from toxins, but that's not going to do any good when you're stuck because you can't step over the half-wall that just popped up in front of you.

The heavy armors like Shepard's are unrealistic, in my opinion. When you've got faster than light projectiles, ceramic plating is really not that much of a difference. The best option that suits the tech in the ME universe is light armor like Jacob wears, combined with the shield tech and breathing apparatii they wore in ME2. That takes care of everything you mentioned, and is actually better for rough terrain because of mobility.

If you don't believe me, let's meet up somewhere and set up an obstacle course. You wear a full body suit of heavy armor, I'll wear like some sweats or something, and we'll see who makes it through.

Unfortunatly, if Jacob fought a sniper with disrupter ammo that way, he'd be dead in a few seconds. Shields are probably often a very good defense, but they're certainly not always enough. Maybe in this specific case, because Jacob also employs barrier, he would eventually make it on the 'armor' he sports. But I think a normal soldier still needs the best armor he [EDIT: or she] can get his hands on.

Modifié par Silrian, 16 mai 2011 - 11:24 .