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About Cerberus and Illusive Man( ME3 spoilers)

Débuté par CroGamer002 , mai 15 2011 12:06

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#51
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Posté 28 mai 2011 - 04:58

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Dave of Canada wrote...

MasterLogo51 wrote...

Don't forget what happened to the Captian in ME1, he was forced to step down as commander of the Normandy. TIM made have been forced, by his supierors, or even by gun point. Maybe he did something that the other people didn't like.


TIM doesn't have superiors, he's the top of the Cerberus foodchain. He's isolated away from everybody else except for a handful of people who know the location of his base, even if he absolutely infuriated people or his top agents were indocrinated they wouldn't be able to track him down.


Unfortunately, this is exactly the case. TIM has no superiors. He has no rivals - the books mention none. He changes location constantly, and has to send new coordinates to his agents when he wants to meet them in person, which he rarely does. The only people who could have any influence on him, in theory, are his sponsors on Earth. Can you see humans on Earth trying to kill Shepard who's trying to save the Earth?

The undeniably attractive theory that TIM was replaced by someone else has a critical flaw. We don't have a figure powerful enough that could replace TIM. And even if there appeared someone, the question of motivations remain. Why would anyone - sapient and unindoctrinated - want to kill Shepard who's trying to save the galaxy? And why would pro-human Cerberus follow such a person??

Can you imagine the agents not questioning this at all? NONE of them are questioning this? Are they all indoctrinated? And if they are, why Cerberus? Why not the Alliance? Remind me who holds the avatar's corpse!

None of that makes any sense. I wish I knew something already. Some kind of explanation. At least a little hint!

EDIT: Actually...Now that I think of it. The Alliance is studying the avatar's remains, don't they? Suppose they found out something. Maybe something that would allow them to use the Reapers tech. And if they could, what do you think they'd do with it? Come on, guess.

Think they're going to use it against the Reapers? Nope. The Reapers are not their enemies. Remember who was the Alliance's main target, on Horizon, when hundreds of thousands of humans were disappearing? Not the Collectors, not the Reapers - it was their evil shadow twin, Cerberus. It was because of Cerberus that they sent their agent to the Terminus Systems. They go to great lengths to strike against Cerberus. I bet if the Alliance got their hands on Reaper tech, the very first thing they'd do would be to try and use it against Cerberus.

Maybe that's exactly what they did. Maybe that's why the entire Cerberus is now indoctrinated. The Reapers must have some inside help with something like that. I bet it's the Alliance who messed up this time. Even after ME2, Cerberus is still working against the Reapers. That turn must happen after Retribution, very close to the actual attack.

Modifié par laecraft, 28 mai 2011 - 05:19 .

#52
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Posté 28 mai 2011 - 05:40

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laecraft wrote...

The undeniably attractive theory that TIM was replaced by someone else has a critical flaw. We don't have a figure powerful enough that could replace TIM.


I agree it would be a poorly concieved plot twist, but I wouldn't put it passed them.

#53
aimlessgun
Posté 28 mai 2011 - 07:39

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Saphra Deden wrote...

laecraft wrote...

The undeniably attractive theory that TIM was replaced by someone else has a critical flaw. We don't have a figure powerful enough that could replace TIM.


I agree it would be a poorly concieved plot twist, but I wouldn't put it passed them.


Yeah they havn't set anyone up to be the bad guy. Still, maybe the Cerberus attacks are only a very minor thing that happen at the start of the game, some rogue section of it, and they don't really need a built up main bad guy for it. 

#54
Avilan II
Posté 28 mai 2011 - 11:56

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Why do people forget that Cerberus is a purely evil terrorist organization? This is in fact the main criticism about the plot in ME2; that we are forced to ally with an organization most of us spent ME1 trying to eradicate from the galaxy.

To me it makes perfect sense that TiM will want to kill Shep, especially if you blew up the base.

#55
Seboist
Posté 28 mai 2011 - 12:02

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aimlessgun wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

laecraft wrote...

The undeniably attractive theory that TIM was replaced by someone else has a critical flaw. We don't have a figure powerful enough that could replace TIM.


I agree it would be a poorly concieved plot twist, but I wouldn't put it passed them.


Yeah they havn't set anyone up to be the bad guy. Still, maybe the Cerberus attacks are only a very minor thing that happen at the start of the game, some rogue section of it, and they don't really need a built up main bad guy for it. 


I doubt they'd go through all the trouble of making Cerberus troops extremely varied and unique just to have them appear only a handful of times. We aren't dealing with reskinned blue suns or eclipse here.

#56
Nathan Redgrave
Posté 28 mai 2011 - 12:59

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Yes, I quite agree. The Cerberus enemies seem far too interesting to be a minor sideplot. A far cry and several galaxies away from the bland Cerberus mooks you encountered on the Cerberus side-missions in ME1, yes?

#57
Nathan Redgrave
Posté 28 mai 2011 - 01:02

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Avilan II wrote...

Why do people forget that Cerberus is a purely evil terrorist organization?


Because ME2 did its job fairly well in presenting the "other side" of the story. Having seen them from the outside in ME1 and from the inside in ME2, we have a fairly well-developed perception of who and what they are by the time we reach ME3.

To be clear, however: whatever you may think of Cerberus by the end of ME2, it doesn't negate the idea that they are "evil." Evil isn't a cackling madman eating babies and farting fire; evil usually believes it's in the right. ME2, by forcing us to grudgingly work with our enemy against a common foe, gave us the opportunity to understand what makes our enemy tick. I appreciate that dynamic, personally.

#58
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Posté 28 mai 2011 - 07:32

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Seboist wrote...

I doubt they'd go through all the trouble of making Cerberus troops extremely varied and unique just to have them appear only a handful of times. We aren't dealing with reskinned blue suns or eclipse here.


Yep, it's pretty clear that Cerberus is a major antagonist. I'm fearing they're actually going to outshine the Reapers. Since it would be pretty hard to go with a gun against a massive dreadnought, whom Shepard is going to fight throughout the game? Husks might become boring, after a while.

Ugh, I'm not looking forward to fighting humans when the Reapers are harvesting the galaxy!

#59
Seboist
Posté 28 mai 2011 - 08:46

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laecraft wrote...

Seboist wrote...

I doubt they'd go through all the trouble of making Cerberus troops extremely varied and unique just to have them appear only a handful of times. We aren't dealing with reskinned blue suns or eclipse here.


Yep, it's pretty clear that Cerberus is a major antagonist. I'm fearing they're actually going to outshine the Reapers. Since it would be pretty hard to go with a gun against a massive dreadnought, whom Shepard is going to fight throughout the game? Husks might become boring, after a while.

Ugh, I'm not looking forward to fighting humans when the Reapers are harvesting the galaxy!


Cerberus has already outshined the Reapers. They have two games and three books revolving around them.

#60
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Posté 29 mai 2011 - 03:16

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Seboist wrote...

Cerberus has already outshined the Reapers. They have two games and three books revolving around them.


I think this might have something to do with the fact that it's easier to write humans than unfathomable aliens. You can write only so much conversations where the person you talk to sounds like an enigmatic machine beyond your comprehension. The more you talk, the more comprehensible they become. Otherwise, what's the point of communication?

Besides, most people hear "terrorist organization" and immediately have a gut reaction "ultimate evil." It's the kind of evil we can understand. On the other hand, humans have no personal experience with an alien force that came to completely destroy their own country, all sapient life on Earth and in the galaxy, only to retreat into hibernation for the next cycle. So they hear "Reapers" and react with "yawn" or "yawn, bring it on, we can handle it".

This triggered response works unfailingly, even though I've never seen, heard, or read about Cerberus performing any acts of terrorism. Their main field seems to be unethical experiments of a small scale (a few dozens test subjects for a project), and the majority of those studies hurt humans, and not aliens. But the codex says they're classified as terrorists, so they must be: once a villain has a reputation, he doesn't have to act on it.

#61
MasterLogo51
Posté 29 mai 2011 - 10:13

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What about the allies in ME1 and ME2. Cerberus maybe out oto get us, but whose to say, it isn't because we did or didn't do something in ME3.

What happens if you rewrote the Geth in ME2, will they come back as Allies in ME3? Any prospective on the topic?

Modifié par MasterLogo51, 29 mai 2011 - 10:22 .

#62
DxWill10
Posté 29 mai 2011 - 11:25

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It would seem silly for the TIM to send Cerberus to kill Shepard after all the time/resources he spent in his campaign against the Reapers (including reviving Shep) While Cerberus being an enemy is all but confirmed, I am curious if TIM will be apart of it.

Perhaps he comes to Shepard for aid in dealing with an uprising after events of ME2 and he joins our squad! Of course having the option to shoot him on sight in this scenario would also be pretty much a requirement.

Probably won't happen, but would Bioware truly turn TIM into an enemy of Shepard (thus aiding the reapers) after all he's done? "Evil" or not, there's a big difference between being xenophobic and helping the reapers.

#63
MasterLogo51
Posté 29 mai 2011 - 11:31

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true, and if TIM does join the squad, I wonder what skills and powers he can bring, as well as any tech and weapon upgrades.

#64
Odoyle
Posté 30 mai 2011 - 03:05

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Seems pretty clear to me that the kill order will come from TIM, despite the 4 billion credits he spent to bring Shepard back from the dead. There is a lot of foreshadowing in ME2 that would justify this.

1) Read the codex entry on the Illusive Man. The very last line clearly states that he will not hesitate to eliminate anyone that is capable of exposing him. After all the contact Shepard has had with him, it would be pretty easy for Shepard to identify him from a stack of dossiers.

2) If your Shepard blows up the base, he is infuriated. He is even more pissed off when you turn your back on him and tell Joker to cut the transmission, saying you're going to do things "your way" from now on.

3) He never fully expected you to come back from the suicide mission to the Collector homeworld, anyways. Despite all of the money he spent on the Lazarus project, he makes it clear several times throughout ME2 that it's likely a 1-way trip. I think he had faith that Shepard was going to pull it off, but I don't think he ever expected the team to make it back.

4) The new Normandy SR2 is turned over to the Systems Alliance to be taken apart, studied, and rebuilt. Although he may not have expected the ship to survive the mission, he cannot be happy when the Alliance gets it's hands on the most advanced human warship ever built. One filled with Cerberus databases and confidential data.

5) Miranda's resignation. Take her with you on the final part of the suicide mission to kill the baby Reaper, and she gives TIM the finger right along with you. I'm sure he's thrilled about that.

6) Talk to Jacob after the suicide mission, and he even mentions how you have a talent for making enemies.


Any suggestion that Shepard and the TIM Man are best buds who pound brews at the Dark Star Lounge are deluded. From his perspective, there is zero reason to keep Shepard alive, and a great many reasons to make him dead.

Modifié par Odoyle, 30 mai 2011 - 03:06 .

#65
Seboist
Posté 30 mai 2011 - 03:26

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At the end of Retribution TIM doesn't rule out working with Anderson of all people. The notion that TIM would go against Shepard "Just because" during a Reaper war is flat out absurd.

Then again, BW hasn't shown much intent on creating any player choice that's beyond cosmetic, so fighting Cerberus troops and Rachni Husks no matter what simplifies things.

#66
MasterLogo51
Posté 30 mai 2011 - 05:04

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Maybe we are looking at this all wrong, is it possible that there is another player in this game we haven't yet seen? Maybe TIM's base of operation was found out and he has once chance to make sure he lives, and that is killing Shepard. Is it possible that he is forced into doing this?

Any chance we get to use any weapon made from the Collecter base? Do we finish off the Reapers, or is there a chance for another Mass Effect game to come out after ME3?

#67
Dean_the_Young
Posté 30 mai 2011 - 06:02

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We also have two more books (both, apparently, between ME2 and ME3) in which Cerberus foreshadowing and development can occur.

#68
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Posté 30 mai 2011 - 06:18

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This focus on Cerberus just convinces me now more than ever that Mass Effect never should have had any Reapers in it.

#69
MasterLogo51
Posté 30 mai 2011 - 07:09

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Can anyone tell how big the Geth army is before and after the Legion mission? Maybe we have a chance to stop the geth after all?

#70
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Posté 30 mai 2011 - 09:02

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MasterLogo51 wrote...

Maybe TIM's base of operation was found out and he has once chance to make sure he lives, and that is killing Shepard.


In Retribution, TIM is ready to sacrifice himself in order to destroy the Reaper avatar. He hesitates, and the choice is made for him, but it's clear what he'd do given enough time, if he were forced to face this choice. He'd not a martyr, but I can't see him killing Shepard out of self-preservation.

Odoyle wrote...

Any suggestion that Shepard and the TIM
Man are best buds who pound brews at the Dark Star Lounge are deluded.
From his perspective, there is zero reason to keep Shepard alive, and a
great many reasons to make him dead.


Shepard fights the Reapers, and he wins. That's one reason to keep him alive, and it far outweighs any other reasons to kill him combined.

If you read the books, TIM's character and his goals are pretty transpartent, without any hidden depths. You get to see his thoughts in his POV. He's a patriot, bent on advancement of humanity, considers the Reapers the ultimate threat, and uses whatever means achieve the results fastest - even if those methods are unsavory and unethical. His actions are driven by his goals, harsh deadlines, desperation, and total lack of moral scruples. He sure enjoys revenge, but only when it doesn't contradict his goals. And he will work with anyone if he thinks it furthers his purpose.

Suppose he's really, totally, completely pissed off at Shepard, so much that he wants Shepard dead. Why not wait until the Reapers are defeated, then? TIM is totally fine with waiting. He knows he's going to get what he wants at the end. He waited for three years to get back at Grayson. Made the revenge all the more enjoyable to him.

No, it's nothing that Shepard did. Cerberus goes after Shepard in ME3 regardless of any Shepard's actions. I have a very bad feeling that TIM's experience with that Reaper artefact is going to play into this.

Saphra Deden wrote...

This focus on Cerberus just convinces me now more than ever that Mass Effect never should have had any Reapers in it.


I have to agree with this. Nothing changes if you remove the Reapers from ME2. I wonder if anything is going to change if you remove the Reapers from ME3...it looks like Shepard is going to fight Cerberus most of the time, and not the Reapers. Well, obviously, the Earth is lost - but apart from that?

I wish they'd say more about why Cerberus did what they did. Speculating is fun, but not when you have no intel whatsoever to build your speculations on. Maybe there'll be something in E3...

Modifié par laecraft, 30 mai 2011 - 09:09 .

#71
Seboist
Posté 30 mai 2011 - 09:11

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In retrospect ME2 is more about building up Cerberus as a ME3 antagonist than anything else. The Collectors were just "plot glue" for all the sub-plots.

What's going to happen is that TIM will be the Loghain-esque personalized villain and the Reapers will be the Archdemon styled force of destruction.

#72
MasterLogo51
Posté 30 mai 2011 - 09:51

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well I haven't read any of the comics (or what ever they are). I didn't even know there was any.

Anyone have any Idea what the theme music will be yet?

#73
Northern Sun
Posté 30 mai 2011 - 10:10

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If I had to make a guess as to Cerberus' motives, it would be something like Crysis 2(spoilers for that game).

In Crysis, Hargreave developed the nanosuit as a bio-weapon that can be used against the alien invaders. After guiding PC Alcatraz through the game, he attempts to kill him so he can take the suit and defeat the Ceph himself. I predict something similar, Shepard could have been implanted with something during Lazarus that has "grown" into a weapon against the Reapers, and the Illusive Man wants to kill Shepard so he can take said weapon and defeat the reapers himself.

#74
MasterLogo51
Posté 30 mai 2011 - 10:19

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thats a very good idea for a ending. I wonder what kind of weapon it would be.

TIM doesn't have an biological infomation about the Reapers, noone does. The closest he probally has is from the Collecter base (if you saved if) and thats only at the end of ME2

#75
MasterLogo51
Posté 30 mai 2011 - 10:21

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how do you get the stuff under the post?
Under that white line?

Modifié par MasterLogo51, 30 mai 2011 - 10:21 .

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