68 réponses à ce sujet

[Pseudo310]

Has anyone crunched the numbers on this? My high-dex, dual-wielding warrior seems to be a much more effective tank than a sword-and-shield, high constitution warrior. The latter is taking reduced damage and has more hit points, but the former seems to get hit less altogether and so stays up for longer.

[OctopusRush]

This is true at extreme values of Dexterity. If you do not look to boost DEX to 40 plus the Sword&Board will be better, otherwise the Dexter will probably beat him.

[JHorwath]

I think the problem is when facing a large amount of monsters at once.  If they have quick attacks then you could be in trouble.  More monsters = greater number of attacks = greater chance to get hit = more hits = more damage > low health coupled with a stray fireball or other magical attack = death.

Then again, my rogue tanked Branka when they were one against one and she couldn't touch him vs my high con warrior who got crushed against her.  However, does that mean my rogue can take 15-20 skeletons at once like my high con warrior?  No.

I think having a high dexterity character is situational at best.  However, in the right situation a high dex character is great.  I'm kind of biased as I really like a warrior who has a high health rating, high strength, and high armor.  I just love that character build.  They are like a walking steel wall. mac truck, bulldozer, giant bolder, ect...

Modifié par JHorwath, 19 novembre 2009 - 07:40 .

[MarloMarlo]

And don't forget that Force Fielded characters are better tanks than both high dex and high con and armor ones.

[F-C]

well the standard tank outlook on things would go along these lines:

its better to take a constant stream of smaller hits and have the health to absorb it while being healed than it is to take unpredictable and large hits where having bad luck could just insta-kill you.

its designed with having a healer in mind. if you take smaller hits and have the health to absorb them, then the healer always has time to heal you and keep you alive.

if you have lower health and take bigger hits, if you get hit by a couple big hits in a row, you could just fall over dead and no healer could keep you alive.

Modifié par F-C, 19 novembre 2009 - 08:02 .

[embrace eternity]

Hi-Dex= not getting hit at all vs. Const+armor, but still taking hits

I agree I'm experiencing the same result

[Pseudo310]

F-C wrote...

well the standard tank outlook on things would go along these lines:

its better to take a constant stream of smaller hits and have the health to absorb it while being healed than it is to take unpredictable and large hits where having bad luck could just insta-kill you.

its designed with having a healer in mind. if you take smaller hits and have the health to absorb them, then the healer always has time to heal you and keep you alive.

if you have lower health and take bigger hits, if you get hit by a couple big hits in a row, you could just fall over dead and no healer could keep you alive.

Yeah, and that's how I would expect it to work, but I've ended up using my high-dex warrior as my primary tank because sword/shield+con seems to get dropped constantly. The thing is I don't have any numbers to back it up so I can't tell if I'm getting lucky or imagining it or what.

Modifié par Pseudo310, 19 novembre 2009 - 08:10 .

[SheffSteel]

It really depends on who you're up against. A character with a high enough attack will still hit your high dex monkey; conversely a character with high armour penetration will make your high armour lobster look stupid.

[JHorwath]

SheffSteel wrote...

It really depends on who you're up against. A character with a high enough attack will still hit your high dex monkey; conversely a character with high armour penetration will make your high armour lobster look stupid.

That's a good point.  It's a give and take.  Besides, behind every great tank is a good healer...

[guysholliday]

Why not have a highish DEX sword-and-board? After Alistair gets the required strength to wear massive armors I just crank up the DEX. Seems to work well.

[sugasugaki]

I'm recently considering.. respeccing my 2h warrior, are there any "useless" abilities for dual-wield that I should avoid?

[rmp]

Anyone tried a shield based warrior with high dexterity instead of constitution? Are there dextery benefit restrictions while wearing heavy armor? Right now for Alistair I'm focusing mainly on strength and dexterity...

[JamesX]

On Nightmare Mode my shield + Dex tank is getting hit for 1 point of damage.
Why would you guys go Con for a tank? 

Con is not all that important because it only increases physical resistance (as in not being able to get knocked down - which Shield Wall Upgarded makes irrelevant). The Hit points increase is negligible consider as Warrior you get 4 HP a level anyways.

Modifié par JamesX, 19 novembre 2009 - 08:55 .

[DragoonKain3]

The fact that higher difficulties VASTLY increase enemy damage, but leaves their attack ratings untouched, is all the more reason to use dodge tanks rather than armor tanks in these levels.

If the enemy is already hitting for 80 damage and 20 AP (which usually is the case in Nightmare), your 40 odd armor would STILL take 60 damage. And this is usually the high end of armor values (not counting self only spells like the broken shimmering shield), so this will not improve anymore barring +5 armor via Shield wall. (Arcane Warriors have other self-buffs, but I'll leave that alone b/c shimmering shield is not working as intended) 

For defense, you've got the very powerful heroic defense, and glyph of warding to imporve it, plus Shield defense, Rally, and various attack lowering debuffs like War Cry. In end game, 200 defense is obtainable (which means anything that has below 200 attack can not hit the tank), not including debuffs like war cry and suppressing fire support.

Did I also mention that healing becomes more gimped at nightmare? The fact is is that enemies hit so very rarely with stacked defense that the impact of even lesser heals is MAGNIFIED. Compare even a 75% evade tank (which is already on the low end of evasion mind you, as it should be closer to 90% as my dodge tank just STANDS in front of revenants w/minimum amount of healing) to the 40 armor guy above. An 80 point heal is equivalent to 1 and 1/3 amounts of hits on the armor dude. An 80 point heal is equivalent to FOUR hits on average for the dodge dude.

In-game proof? How about me using ~20 lesser health pots and ~10 lesser lyrium pots during the time when I was forced to take Ogrhen, when I usually don't use ANY when I go with my dodge tank Alistair? 


For the record, here's the build

STR 26 base
DEX everything else
288 hp (you don't even get three shotted at this hp with a single attack)

Rose of Thorns (+2 dex, does ~45 physical damage and 15 rune damage every 1.5 seconds)
Helm of Honnealth (+2 dex)
Champions Shield (+15 defense)
Dalish set (+5 defense set bonus, +5 more from stats of equips)
Belt (+3 defense, forgot name)
Magister's shield (+6 defense)
Ring of Warrior (+2 dex)
Seal of Rat Red (but this can be Key to the city if I wanted to)

Champion 2 (working on 4)
Templar 4
Taunt 2
Bravery 3
Shield pummel 2
Shield expertise 4
Shield mastery 4
(At level 22, I'm thinking Overpower for an auto-shatter ability, or Rapid Shot to improve his already terrific archery damage)

He currently has 19 levels, 131 base defense, 146 with shield defense, 156 with Rally.  and 190 with Heroic Defense. If I wanted to, Glyph of Warding also gives him 222 defense, but thats overkill already.

[JHorwath]

JamesX wrote...

On Nightmare Mode my shield + Dex tank is getting hit for 1 point of damage.
Why would you guys go Con for a tank? 

Because I'd rather have a mac truck than a sports car.  Just rpg preference.

Modifié par JHorwath, 19 novembre 2009 - 09:08 .

[Pseudo310]

I think what JamesX is saying is that based on this game's mechanics, the traditional Con+Armor tank is just flat-out not as effective as a dex tank.

[JHorwath]

Ya, but happens when a mage throws a high damage attack into the melee mess. It happens from time to time. Just wondering? I still think it's situational for both builds...

The only way to be covered in every situation would be a balance of both, agree.

Modifié par JHorwath, 19 novembre 2009 - 09:15 .

[DragoonKain3]

Actually, I loaded up a fight before a revenant.



Even when runnning only shield defense and rally, plus being afflicted by aura of weakness, he still has 146 defense. And he soloed the entire fight (everyone else was just standing around), only being hit twice for the entire duration, which was at least 55 swings from the revenant.



Can armor tank say the same thing?

[JHorwath]

DragoonKain3 wrote...

Actually, I loaded up a fight before a revenant.

Even when runnning only shield defense and rally, plus being afflicted by aura of weakness, he still has 146 defense. And he soloed the entire fight (everyone else was just standing around), only being hit twice for the entire duration, which was at least 55 swings from the revenant.

Can armor tank say the same thing?

I still say it's situational but thanks for the info.  This just gives me something else to mess around with on another of many different builds.

Modifié par JHorwath, 19 novembre 2009 - 09:22 .

[GhoXen]

Dex tank gets chewed alive against spells. Dex tanks cannot dodge an attack from flank, behind, or while they are stunned.



The most a Dex tank can do is off-tanking. Only a Con tank can get you through on any difficulty above Easy.

[mysticforce42]

The biggest problem with using a Dex tank is that you'd end up with a pretty shallow HP pool, which means you have less room for error when somethings goes ploin-shaped, such as enemy casters dropping Mortality + Crushing Prison on you or just a bunch of archers getting lucky.



Often times it takes your mage(s) longer to set up full defensive buffs on your Dex tank than it does to set up a Taunt + Force Field with a high HP tank. The longer it takes your mages to get to the CCing/killing instead of keeping your tank alive, the more damage your party will take.



Both tanks work, it's just that Dex tanks are better for tanking single bosses whereas a high armor/hp tank is better at tanking large groups of a variety of mobs.

[JHorwath]

GhoXen wrote...

Dex tank gets chewed alive against spells. Dex tanks cannot dodge an attack from flank, behind, or while they are stunned.

The most a Dex tank can do is off-tanking. Only a Con tank can get you through on any difficulty above Easy.

Ya, the stunning part would be bad.  Although indomniable(spelling) might help this, maybe?

Modifié par JHorwath, 19 novembre 2009 - 09:27 .

[DragoonKain3]

I say the high CON tank is the situational one, if even at that, since they can't survive grabs even with their 150+ hp differential. And with Alistair having 288 hp, he can tank mage spells long enough to pull a holy smite on their behinds, and proceed to decimate them soon after. His only weakness is CC spells, but that's something he shares with the CON tank anyways, so I'm thinking of putting Bergen's honor to further improve his resists.



And for the record, if a revenant (a red boss) can not reliably hit my tank, do you seriously think that yellows and whites (aka trash mobs) would be able to hit him even with overwhelming numbers? And with Taunt focusing all the attacks on him...

[mysticforce42]

DragoonKain3 wrote...

I say the high CON tank is the situational one, if even at that, since they can't survive grabs even with their 150+ hp differential. And with Alistair having 288 hp, he can tank mage spells long enough to pull a holy smite on their behinds, and proceed to decimate them soon after. His only weakness is CC spells, but that's something he shares with the CON tank anyways, so I'm thinking of putting Bergen's honor to further improve his resists.

And for the record, if a revenant (a red boss) can not reliably hit my tank, do you seriously think that yellows and whites (aka trash mobs) would be able to hit him even with overwhelming numbers? And with Taunt focusing all the attacks on him...

I've been wondering about something and hope you can test it for me.

Does defense drop significantly when CCed by things like CoC or Crushing Poison?  Some melee/range skills like stuns don't seem to be based off of Attack and always lands... so if defense is affected by being CCed, then you run a larger risk of being gibbed quickly when CCed.

Plus, you can also run a high armor/con tank with Heoric Defense and Glyph of Warding - thus raising defense high enough to avoid most hits, and still be able to shrug off those that land.

Personally, I just prefer a tank that can survive an extra round of two of Storm of the Century while dragging mobs into it >.>