68 réponses à ce sujet

[SheffSteel]

DragoonKain3 wrote...
And for the record, if a revenant (a red boss) can not reliably hit my tank, do you seriously think that yellows and whites (aka trash mobs) would be able to hit him even with overwhelming numbers? And with Taunt focusing all the attacks on him...

Small point here. It depends on the rule system and how attack/defense compare. If the rules are working out  so that, in D&D terms, the revenant needs a natural 20 to hit, then yes, you're going to get hit a lot more when mobbed by little gippers than when fighting one tough enemy. However, if the rules system doesn't have a minimum chance to hit (or if the Revenant isn't hitting that limit) then things are very different.

[DragoonKain3]

Plus, you can also run a high armor/con tank with Heoric Defense and Glyph of Warding - thus raising defense high enough to avoid most hits, and still be able to shrug off those that land.

High enough? A base DEX warrior has 45 + level + 4 warrior bonus = 65 defense at lvl 22.  Heroic Defense/warding increases it both by 30 something points, but warding is very unwieldly since your target or your tank might move around, and I rarely use it.

As such, you can only really count on Heroic Defense. Which means less than 100 defense. You'd still be hit by the Revenant in question at least 50% of the time. 

Often times it takes your mage(s) longer to set up full defensive buffs on your Dex tank than it does to set up a Taunt + Force Field with a high HP tank.

Totally incorrect. It only takes Heroic Defense for my tank to be completely immune to hit roll attacks (glyph of warding is overkill and unwieldly) AND still be able to continually apply threat via taunts/threaten/regular melee attacks. The force fielded tank can NOT do this, so if you pull aggro, then your tank can't do anything about it and your squishies must scramble for dear life.

Plus, force field + taunt STILL works on dex tank. It's just that Heroic defense is the superior option, since he can still be largely invulnerable while be able to keep aggro for practically forever.

Both tanks work, it's just that Dex tanks are better for tanking single bosses whereas a high armor/hp tank is better at tanking large groups of a variety of mobs.

I've said it before, if a red boss can NOT hit the dex tank reliably, how much more for trash mobs?

Sure the dex tank has less hp to tank spells, but that's where Templar's Holy Smite comes in. Plus the fact that Alistair already has 288 hp... more than enough to tank enemy spell damage before he rips them a new one.

Dex tank gets chewed alive against spells. Dex tanks cannot dodge an attack from flank, behind, or while they are stunned

That's incorrect. Your defense still applies even when the enemy is stunned, as I've seen my archer still miss against stunned opponents from her previous scattershot. Of course, someone who can look into the code can disprove me, but this is my experience.

And flanking/behind? You do know Shield Tactics exist to completely eradicate any such notions, right?

The most a Dex tank can do is off-tanking. Only a Con tank can get you through on any difficulty above Easy.

Oh, puh-leeze. I'm using a dex tank, and he works wonderfully at Nightmare.

Seriously guys, are you guys just theorycrafting or this comes from actual game experience on Nightmare? I've tested CON tanks via Oghren (see above), and its nowhere near as effective as DEX tanks, considering I used more resources than I usually do.

[DragoonKain3]

SheffSteel wrote...

DragoonKain3 wrote...
And for the record, if a revenant (a red boss) can not reliably hit my tank, do you seriously think that yellows and whites (aka trash mobs) would be able to hit him even with overwhelming numbers? And with Taunt focusing all the attacks on him...

Small point here. It depends on the rule system and how attack/defense compare. If the rules are working out  so that, in D&D terms, the revenant needs a natural 20 to hit, then yes, you're going to get hit a lot more when mobbed by little gippers than when fighting one tough enemy. However, if the rules system doesn't have a minimum chance to hit (or if the Revenant isn't hitting that limit) then things are very different.

AFAIK, there is no minimum chance to hit (look over at datoolset wiki). Or if there is, its VERY small (like 1%).

I've had Alistair surrounded by numerous melee + archer guys, and he didn't take a single point of damage for the entire duration. Or if he did get hit, I did not notice it since only 1 out of 100 attacks wnet through.

[DragoonKain3]

Confirmed. I froze Revenant with cone of cold, dealing no damage but still freezing him, and attacks can still miss.

[Discobird]

SheffSteel wrote...
Small point here. It depends on the rule system and how attack/defense compare. If the rules are working out  so that, in D&D terms, the revenant needs a natural 20 to hit, then yes, you're going to get hit a lot more when mobbed by little gippers than when fighting one tough enemy. However, if the rules system doesn't have a minimum chance to hit (or if the Revenant isn't hitting that limit) then things are very different.

There is no minimum chance to hit in this game.  If your defense is at least 50 points greater than your attacker's attack rating, you'll dodge every attack (at least, according to my best reading of the code).

[DragoonKain3]

Actually, isn't the formula...



bHit = RandomF(100.0) < AttackRating - DefenseRating



Since the game generates a random number up to 100, if your defense rating is gretaer than the enemy's attack rating, you cannot be hit at all?

[Discobird]

Yeah, but AttackRating is effectively initialized to a value of 50 before adding the attacker's attack rating

It's set up so that if the attacker's attack rating = the defender's defense rating, he has a 50% chance to hit.

Modifié par Discobird, 19 novembre 2009 - 10:43 .

[SheffSteel]

oh well... that's a bit bent. Never mind

[JamesX]

GhoXen wrote...

Dex tank gets chewed alive against spells. Dex tanks cannot dodge an attack from flank, behind, or while they are stunned.

The most a Dex tank can do is off-tanking. Only a Con tank can get you through on any difficulty above Easy.

That is not true.

The most you ever face against a spell user is 3.  You have the rest of your party.  Even with a Con+Shield tank you will still take out the mages first.  So all your Tank has to do is to survive against the initial barrage of spells then it become the same for a Dex or a Con Tank.

No spell outside of combos will do anything close to the 250-300 HP you will have even without pumping Con in the initial barrage.

Even with just chucking 1 normal potion you would live thorugh it.

Mages are dead.

Then  you get assulted by the standard barrage of normal attacks.  I can guarantee you will take more damage as a Con+Shield tank than a Dex+Shield tank.

Unless your armor is weakness you take over 200 damage then you don't need the extra HP.

Not sure if you tried to use a Dex+Shield tank.  But Con+Shield tank simply sucks.

This is the main reason even for Sten I pump his Dex up to 20.  Because otherwise he drops like a rock.  Dex is far more important than Con.

Modifié par JamesX, 19 novembre 2009 - 10:43 .

[DragoonKain3]

Oh I see. It initializes it to 50.



Interesting though that toolset wiki says its actually 54, or am I reading the wiki wrong, or is the actual scripts different?



I would not ask such pointless questions if I can find nss files. Grr... still can't find those stupid nss files in my toolset folder. I find ncs, but compiled already into hex lol. XD



I really should look harder for nss, or find a way to decompile those ncs files lol.

[Rynas]

It's best to have both! High defense and high con/armor.



The thing I've noticed with my nigh-unhittable dex rogue is that stun/paralyze/freeze seems to seriously screw up your defense, so armor/con is needed.



Resists + lots of health seems necessary against mages or bosses with tons of elemental damage. I guess you could take one or the other, but the key is surviving the initial wave of knockdowns/freezes/damage. Pumping both just seems safer.



Some bosses also seem to have auto-hit abilities that sometimes hurt a lot.



I guess, overall, it depends on the situation...

[Discobird]

DragoonKain3 wrote...

Oh I see. It initializes it to 50.

Interesting though that toolset wiki says its actually 54, or am I reading the wiki wrong, or is the actual scripts different?

Huh you're right that's weird. The wiki must just be out of date then. Here's the relevant snippet of code from combat_h.nss, as viewed in the toolset:

float fAttackRoll = 50.0;
. . .
float fAttack = fAttackRating + fAttackRoll + fFlanking - fPenalties;
. . .
if (RandomFloat()*100.0f < fAttack - fDefenseRating)
. . .

I would not ask such pointless questions if I can find nss files. Grr... still can't find those stupid nss files in my toolset folder. I find ncs, but compiled already into hex lol. XD

I really should look harder for nss, or find a way to decompile those ncs files lol.

I'm guessing you can't run the toolset itself then? I've been using the toolset to look at scripts but I don't how else to view them (sounds like maybe you can't  )

[vhatever]

High dex works well for single targets that use only melee attacks. If you really want a good tank for those situations though, you are better off with shielded warrior with heroic defense on him. Yoy may actually be better off increasing magic then con, since the heals all heal a flat amount of damage, as opposed to a % base heal. You just have to be very careful with the enemeies that have overwhelm-type abilites.

[JHorwath]

I'll stick with my Mac truck, thank you very much.

[JamesX]

Pretty sure Overwhelm does not work on people that cannot be knocked down. Shield Wall Upgraded negates that. I don't remember it ever happening to my take, but it happens to my dual wield all the time

[chatua]

Well considering how my rogue beefed on dex and cunning does 10% more party damage than my strength and con tank, I'd have to say....yea. Plus, its so amusing watchin the rogue block arrows with frikkin swords.

Modifié par chatua, 20 novembre 2009 - 12:50 .

[metatrans]

you need shield tactics for flanking immunity or else you'll get chewed up and spit out by big mob packs that will get behind your tank no matter what you do.



mind you theres nothing preventing you from boosting dex as a shield user.



my suggestion however is to boost str/con and then have a mage use heroic defense and/or glyph of warding to get high defense. best of both worlds.

[Rynas]

vhatever wrote...

High dex works well for single targets that use only melee attacks. If you really want a good tank for those situations though, you are better off with shielded warrior with heroic defense on him. Yoy may actually be better off increasing magic then con, since the heals all heal a flat amount of damage, as opposed to a % base heal. You just have to be very careful with the enemeies that have overwhelm-type abilites.

High dex works fine for multiple targets

It's mostly against auto-hitters or multiple casters that you get creamed.

[Discobird]

Rynas wrote...

vhatever wrote...

High dex works well for single targets that use only melee attacks. If you really want a good tank for those situations though, you are better off with shielded warrior with heroic defense on him. Yoy may actually be better off increasing magic then con, since the heals all heal a flat amount of damage, as opposed to a % base heal. You just have to be very careful with the enemeies that have overwhelm-type abilites.

High dex works fine for multiple targets

It's mostly against auto-hitters or multiple casters that you get creamed.

Haha, awesome. Seems like Evasion might actually be hindering you since the animation stops you from attacking (the evasion check occurs before the defense check so it's not like every evade would have been a hit).

[DragoonKain3]

Note that a dodge tank can be outfitted with an anti-magic ward, and he'd be effectively immune to all physical hit rolls AND magical spells. You can't say the same thing about armor tanks.



Besides, in nightmare, auto-hits that actually matter *cough*dragongrabs*cough* does so much damage over time that it WILL kill your tank regardless of how much hp he has, unless you stopped it prematurely. Vast majority of auto-hits, you can just scoff off and continue on your merry way.

[Rynas]

Discobird wrote...

Rynas wrote...

vhatever wrote...

High dex works well for single targets that use only melee attacks. If you really want a good tank for those situations though, you are better off with shielded warrior with heroic defense on him. Yoy may actually be better off increasing magic then con, since the heals all heal a flat amount of damage, as opposed to a % base heal. You just have to be very careful with the enemeies that have overwhelm-type abilites.

High dex works fine for multiple targets

It's mostly against auto-hitters or multiple casters that you get creamed.

Haha, awesome. Seems like Evasion might actually be hindering you since the animation stops you from attacking (the evasion check occurs before the defense check so it's not like every evade would have been a hit).

Yeah, I didn't notice the evades at the time, but I did in the vid.  With lots and lots of opponents, it might get so bad that you can't get enough hits off.

Here's another one for your entertainment, taken immediately after the previous one:



Hard to see in the vid because of the low quality, but she's level 16 and wielding a Rose's Thorn with paralyze/frost/lightning runes and a crappy grey iron version of Thorn of the Dead Gods.  Funny how the paralyze didn't proc in the first vid, but did in the second.

[JHorwath]

What happens when you get grabbed by an Ogre an punched, repeatedly.  I'll stick to my guns.  I made two characters from tips from the general masses on this forum and they both stink.

The only good party is the first one.  That includes classes that the masses dubbed useless.  However, I made the party to compliment one another and it's still the best.  All these little test are great in a controlled enviroment but when your playing the game things happen that you don't expect.  High con helps you when things get fubar and break out of your little fragile mold.  That's all I have to say.

*I think it's safe to say I've learned to do the opposit of what I read on these forums.

Modifié par JHorwath, 20 novembre 2009 - 06:02 .

[Rynas]

Ogre grab is one of the "autohit" things I mentioned above. Maybe the reason you haven't learned much is because you're not reading carefully?



Fwiw, I wouldn't recommend a dex rogue for grouping. The damage is noticeably worse than a Str/Cun rogue, and you're not going to get attacked much, anyway. Better to just dish out as much DPS as possible and let the tank absorb the blows.

[JHorwath]

Rynas wrote...

Ogre grab is one of the "autohit" things I mentioned above. Maybe the reason you haven't learned much is because you're not reading carefully?

Fwiw, I wouldn't recommend a dex rogue for grouping. The damage is noticeably worse than a Str/Cun rogue, and you're not going to get attacked much, anyway. Better to just dish out as much DPS as possible and let the tank absorb the blows.

I don't need to read it.  Your guy gets grabbed and he gets hurt, a ton.  Bad damage.    Besides, if you have a ton in your con and you get auto hit you have a better chance of living.  More hp = better chance of living.

Modifié par JHorwath, 20 novembre 2009 - 06:33 .

[Naminator236]

MarloMarlo wrote...

And don't forget that Force Fielded characters are better tanks than both high dex and high con and armor ones.

HAHAHAHAHAHA


/thread right here