68 réponses à ce sujet

[JHorwath]

Naminator236 wrote...

MarloMarlo wrote...

And don't forget that Force Fielded characters are better tanks than both high dex and high con and armor ones.

HAHAHAHAHAHA


/thread right here

QFT!

[code2501]

JHorwath wrote...
What happens when you get grabbed by an Ogre an punched, repeatedly. 

Thats usualy right about when I paralize, fear, prison or freeze the ogre... but hey to each their own.

Personally I'm more upset that the 2hander set feels so useless compared to BnS for tanking or DW for DPS.

[prmsntrcrps]

I had no trouble with my 600 hp sword and board tank on hard, with just enough dex to grab all shield skills. He did get hit alot, but with heal and group heal costing 2 talent points to get you will most likely have them on two mages.



I do see your point, but as I had no clue how much defense would be needed to be unhittable I opted for the other way on my first playthrough. Can you live through grip abilities though if your stuns are on cd? I could with some heals.

[code2501]

prmsntrcrps wrote...
Can you live through grip abilities though if your stuns are on cd? I could with some heals.

I would not know, I never leave myself without an available stun method for grabs... I think its called strategy.

Enemy>status>grabbing....Useability>Paralyze
Enemy>status>grabbing....Useability>Crushing Prison

Usually does the trick on a high SP mage, rogues and fighters have other abilities that also do the trick.

Modifié par code2501, 20 novembre 2009 - 07:26 .

[DragoonKain3]

A force fielded tank is not a tank when it can not keep aggro, as I mentioned before.

And when the rest of your party is min/maxed as well, odds are you will pull aggro away from the FF'ed tank. Which is a 'very bad thing', so you only should use FF in dire situations.


Note that the beauty of the dex tank is that you don't worry have to worry about hit rolls at all, allowing you to put more emphasis on keeping the tank alive from other threats. I mentioned before that a dodge tank can be preempted to be immune to magic as well, and he still does not have to worry about hit roll attacks even under the ward. (or you can just one-shot enemy mages with mana clash or render them totally useless with nuetralization glyph, if you want to go on the offensive)

As such, you can put ALL your focus on the one thing thats still a threat to your tank, which are auto-hit attacks, mainly grabs. And considering you don't have to worry about normal attacks OR magic, your force field and/or your cone of cold should always be up whenever you need it to save your tank.

And the best part is? Auto-hit attacks aren't very numerous, and the ones you have to worry about for (grabs), can only be done by ogres and high dragons. Which is to say, is not a whole lot of monsters, meaning you really only have to worry about your tank in these rare occasions.

As we all know, the less time we have to worry about the tank and the less resources we spend on keeping him alive, the more time and resources we can spend on pwning the enemies.

[code2501]

DragoonKain3 wrote...
And the best part is? Auto-hit attacks aren't very numerous, and the ones you have to worry about for (grabs), can only be done by ogres and high dragons. Which is to say, is not a whole lot of monsters, meaning you really only have to worry about your tank in these rare occasions.

Yes, and if you can't land a spell on a dragon to break the grab, just wait till the character is dead and then revive them. Its only a 2 minute cooldown.

Modifié par code2501, 20 novembre 2009 - 07:50 .

[Cat Lance]

So glad to hear I'm not the only person tanking with my rogue! My motto has always been, don't let them hit you to begin with! *dances* (Yes, I heart the new smileys)

[Kalikratidas]

You are forgetting about Arcane Warriors. Currently with Arcane warrior at 14 i reach 59 armor (With Juggernaut armor, can go more with dragon bone) with High defense and resistances: 100 psychical, 100 magic, 75 on rest. The high resistances are due to the shimmering shield spell. They also get more avoidance from Fade shroud. They are currently the best tanks in the game imo. Their flaw up to 14 level is that they are auto-attack machines since you play them with ~6-7 upkeep spells and have no mana (you need to keep your fatigue high since fatigue is the arcane warriors attack rating, i am at 126% fatigue), but once reaching 14lvl you can also make them blood mages using health to spellcast and heal them from allies health (Or spellcast, instantly drop blood magic and heal). You might luck threat mechanics, but opening up an attack with a crushing prison and auto attacking for more damage than a 2 handed warrior's auto attack will make the job. In comparison to a better geared Alistair with full shield talents, the arcane warrior comes better in almost every situation.

[Maria Caliban]

DragoonKain3 wrote...

As such, you can put ALL your focus on the one thing thats still a threat to your tank, which are auto-hit attacks, mainly grabs.

Grabs are not auto-hits. During the fighting in Denerim, the orge tried to grab my tank PC and she just resisted it.

[Pseudo310]

Seems to me that perhaps Constitution could stand to be made a bit more beneficial.

[DragoonKain3]

Grabs go through a resistance check, most probably physical. Which means jack in terms of high defense, though,

As for Arcane Warrior, sure they have better survivability when Shimmering Shield (SS) is on. But fact of the matter is, SS does NOT turn off when its supposed to (when mana is expended, since it has a big drain on mana over time), meaning that you can have it indefinitely on and be indefinitely invulnerable. Which is an exploit no matter how I see it, so bringing in a bugged skill to the arguement is quite silly.

Also doesn't change the fact that that mage has no aggro management at all. Once the enemy targets a squishy, there's nothing you can do about it. Sure the AW would outlast the enemy even if everyone is dead, but again, that's more due to the fact that SS is broken as of right now.

Modifié par DragoonKain3, 20 novembre 2009 - 03:44 .

[Elanareon]

I think dragons don't miss.... And the Grapple my the grapple...! And the biting around and the tossing around!!

[Siven80]

Interesting subject. Sure high Dex is great for tanking, so is high con for that matter. Though personally i like my massive armor, and a good level of dex and con. Just buff up with spells etc whatever is needed

[Wompoo]

JHorwath wrote...

I think the problem is when facing a large amount of monsters at once.  If they have quick attacks then you could be in trouble.  More monsters = greater number of attacks = greater chance to get hit = more hits = more damage > low health coupled with a stray fireball or other magical attack = death.

Then again, my rogue tanked Branka when they were one against one and she couldn't touch him vs my high con warrior who got crushed against her.  However, does that mean my rogue can take 15-20 skeletons at once like my high con warrior?  No.

I think having a high dexterity character is situational at best.  However, in the right situation a high dex character is great.  I'm kind of biased as I really like a warrior who has a high health rating, high strength, and high armor.  I just love that character build.  They are like a walking steel wall. mac truck, bulldozer, giant bolder, ect...

Above has been my experience as well.. a full sword and board build can take a huge amount of damage over a high dex character, specially when facing a horde of Dark Spawn (which is their task, take the heat and let everyone else burn them down). Playing a new CC mage at present and quite frankly I have found Shale to be a seriously good tank. I loved my high dex dual wield warrior, but no way could it just storm into the eye of a storm and survive without  spamming heal pots (not a good idea I know, but sometimes a big fight is more forefilling then nibbling away at the edges). Shale admittedly does little damage when Stone Heart is up, but she can hold that hate. Alister makes a great off tank, but I try to keep his tactic layout simple... sword board I find, is just to much for the AI to do well.

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[Vichr]

Eduku wrote...

I would be interested to see how it would go if someone made a rogue and put all their points purely into dex (and used daggers with the hotfix, I guess)

I did that on my rogue, my favorite character so far. 20 str, 30 cunning (to be able to open every chest in the game), the rest went in dexterity. Used the dex/dagger hotfix. If i remember correctly, at the end i had over 90 dexterity buffed, and over 150 defense rating. Character was literally unhittable, the only thing that could kill me were mobs that grab you, or that devour thing like spiders/wolves do and casters of course. Also with haste (pity momentum doesnt work with it), flame and frost weapons and three grandmaster elemetal runes in every weapon the killing speed was insane - basicaly every hit is a critical due to high critical chance, auto critical to stunned targets and attacks from stealth every 10 secs.  

Soloing it on nightmare as a dex dagger rogue, level 13 right now and it´s going well so far.

[Rynas]

Vichr wrote...

Eduku wrote...

I would be interested to see how it would go if someone made a rogue and put all their points purely into dex (and used daggers with the hotfix, I guess)

I did that on my rogue, my favorite character so far. 20 str, 30 cunning (to be able to open every chest in the game), the rest went in dexterity. Used the dex/dagger hotfix. If i remember correctly, at the end i had over 90 dexterity buffed, and over 150 defense rating. Character was literally unhittable, the only thing that could kill me were mobs that grab you, or that devour thing like spiders/wolves do and casters of course. Also with haste (pity momentum doesnt work with it), flame and frost weapons and three grandmaster elemetal runes in every weapon the killing speed was insane - basicaly every hit is a critical due to high critical chance, auto critical to stunned targets and attacks from stealth every 10 secs.  

See my sig  That's only 125 defense, level 16.

Soloing it on nightmare as a dex dagger rogue, level 13 right now and it´s going well so far.

Nice to hear that's possible!  Something to try next...

[Cat Lance]

Pseudo310 wrote...

Seems to me that perhaps Constitution could stand to be made a bit more beneficial.

I think constitution is, if you are playing a character who's taking hits instead of dodging them. I know,  if a critter starts actually landing hits on my rogue, she needs to get healed right away, because I've totally neglected the constitution stat. So, it's simply that the characters, like people, can find different ways of doing things.

[Deviija]

Yes'm. By game's end, my rogue had around 120 - 130ish dodge/defense. The rare times she did get hit, she'd be hurting fairly bad. Ogres doing the special move of picking you up and punching you? Total kill move.



But I dunno. I think as a shield defense master, you could get away with a high dex tank build without ever needing much in the way of con. My Alistair was tanking several yellow mobs at a time and didn't seem to hurt too bad.



Course, I'm on Normal mode.

[Dalereth]

I'm still on my first playthrough and just came to this realization last night. I was fighting a high dragon trying desperately to keep Alistair (SnB with high Con) and Sten alive, only to realize after they died that my Rogue did a much better job of it. Pretty much killed the thing on his own.



A bit of a startling realization given that it flies in the face of normal RPG conventions, but it is what it is.