183 réponses à ce sujet

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...

That makes them traitors.

If the Alliance gets its hands on them they're getting sent to prison or executed.

Yeah. And that's why they're sticking with Cerberus.

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...
Right, so if your Shepard hates Cerberus she should hate them.

What? Why?

They aren't the ones ordering the twisted experiments and leading me into rather moronic traps.

[KenKenpachi]

I take it you two never heard of something called...a Pardon have you?

Traitors yes or maybe, but given the reason and Shepards soon to be attonement (in the form of the reapers showing up) I'm sure a pardon would be issued, provided Alliance Crew were allowed with the Cerbrus Crew. After all if not, it would take months to train a new crew in the ships operation. So why not forgive the old one? Plus its not really being a tratior.

Being a Traitor would mean having been in service when they jumped. And not having quit and joining a know terrorist group. Plus selling alliance military information. In fact if you were to throw up charges like that the best place to look would be at the Now dissgraced Admiral Anderson. The SR1 blueprints found some way to Cerbrus.

[LorDC]

I honestly don't see how Council can be defended in Ekuna incident without galaxy-scale hypocrisy. They forced few hundred thousand quarians to wander in space just because they wanted to give planet to species of their choice.
I actually just remembered one more such incident. You know, Skyllian Verge. Although it was beneficial to humanity it does not change the fact that Council more or less allowed us to start colonization of Batarian space.

[LorDC]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...
Right, so if your Shepard hates Cerberus she should hate them.

What? Why?

They aren't the ones ordering the twisted experiments and leading me into rather moronic traps.

But Cerberus and TIM never ordered such twisted experiments. It was cell-leaders who were in charge who ordered torture of little children.

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...
By joining and staying with that organization though they are culpable for its actions. Only a couple of them joined for Shepard. The rest joined for completely unrelated reasons and even justify what Cerberus does (like Kelly).

They have no knowledge or influence in what Cerberus is doing beyond providing the obvious manpower, so I fail to see why I should hold them accountable for something, say, Gavin Archer or those scientists that conducted those experiments on rachni clones did.

[Someone With Mass]

LorDC wrote...
But Cerberus and TIM never ordered such twisted experiments. It was cell-leaders who were in charge who ordered torture of little children.

And TIM is in charge of the cells.

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...
Bull**** and it wouldn't matter anyway. They knew Cerberus was criminal and still joined. That's a crime.

I don't think they did.

[Someone With Mass]

And you have a very, very naive viewpoint on things.

[LorDC]

Someone With Mass wrote...

LorDC wrote...
But Cerberus and TIM never ordered such twisted experiments. It was cell-leaders who were in charge who ordered torture of little children.

And TIM is in charge of the cells.

But he didn't knew.

[LorDC]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...
Bull**** and it wouldn't matter anyway. They knew Cerberus was criminal and still joined. That's a crime.

I don't think they did.

So they joined organization they don't know anything about? And didn't even care to do research. Normal people usually try to find something about place they are going to start working. Even more so if job involves serving on warship owned by some paramilitary group. Or do you suggest that everybody on Normandy is blind stubborn moron who does not want to know anything beyond pushing buttons at their workstation?

[Someone With Mass]

LorDC wrote...
So they joined organization they don't know anything about? And didn't even care to do research. Normal people usually try to find something about place they are going to start working. Even more so if job involves serving on warship owned by some paramilitary group. Or do you suggest that everybody on Normandy is blind stubborn moron who does not want to know anything beyond pushing buttons at their workstation?

Or perhaps the recruiter told them what they wanted to hear, since it's his/her job.

[Moiaussi]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Uh, yes, there is. The constant turian posturing against the Alliance is evidence of their opposition. They opposed to humanity joining the Council, getting a Spectre, and criticize human foreign policy. Even without that, they are military rival even if they are a political ally. You admit it yourself that the best solution is to clean out the Alliance internally. This could have been accomplished, but it would have required Anderson being patient and not rushing off to save his love interest's friend.

Convenient that you forget that the Council also ordered the Turian government to end the war against the Alliance. The Alliance did get a Spectre, and did join the Council. They aren't a military rival, they are a military superior. They would have won the first contact war if it had continued. It would have been expensive for them, but they would have won it.

Quit whining that you think they are evil simply because you aren't given everything you want.

Anderson made the situation worse by running to the turians. He made the Alliance look incompetent and he leaked Alliance intel to the turians. In any confrontation with the turians now the Alliance will be at disadvantage thanks to him. The Alliance looking like it can't solve it's own problems undermines its credibility which harms its relations with every race in the galaxy.

In this matter, the Alliance CAN"T solve its own problems. If it could, these people would already have been under arrest. Of course you conveniently ignore the fact that the infiltrators are doing harm.

There is also no guarantee the turians only arrested Alliance officials with known Cerberus connections. They could have just as easily used the raid as an excuse to grab any Alliance officer who they didn't like or who had sensitive intelligence that they wanted. Giving the turians the power to do that was incredibly reckless and naive.

It wasn't the whole Turian armed forces, it was a small task force, and Anderson was there for oversight. There is no evidence that it wasn't a clean operation and no evidence that there will not be due processs.

None of this has anything to do with Cerberus or its policies, I'm not arguing about that. Cerberus could be a religious group focused on the worship of Zeus, hell bent on converting all humanity to their way of thinking, and this would still be a terrible thing for Anderson to do.

Why would Cerberus be more objectionable if they were simply preaching? If Cerberus simply advocated using harsher techniques rather than putting such techniques into practice, they would likely not even be criminal. This really is just about you not liking being told no to anything, isn't it?

[LorDC]

Someone With Mass wrote...

LorDC wrote...
So they joined organization they don't know anything about? And didn't even care to do research. Normal people usually try to find something about place they are going to start working. Even more so if job involves serving on warship owned by some paramilitary group. Or do you suggest that everybody on Normandy is blind stubborn moron who does not want to know anything beyond pushing buttons at their workstation?

Or perhaps the recruiter told them what they wanted to hear, since it's his/her job.

I could have swallowed such excuse if they were serving on some cargo ship. But they are serving on frigate. That means you have good chance to get killed. Not to mention that Cerberus is known as criminal organization.
"They've tricked me! Bastards!" is plausible excuse for one man. But not for the whole ship crew.

[Moiaussi]

LorDC wrote...

I honestly don't see how Council can be defended in Ekuna incident without galaxy-scale hypocrisy. They forced few hundred thousand quarians to wander in space just because they wanted to give planet to species of their choice.
I actually just remembered one more such incident. You know, Skyllian Verge. Although it was beneficial to humanity it does not change the fact that Council more or less allowed us to start colonization of Batarian space.

Most countries limit immigration. That particular world was far better suited to the Elcor. There are plenty of other worlds out there. This isn't RL Earth where there it is hard to find unoccupied space.  Most of the galaxy is unexplored. Why that world?

The war that sent the Quarians into space was already over 100 years in the past. It is hard to consider them refugees at that point, since they could have set up long ago, outside Council space. They didn't just choose any world, but that one. There is a difference between allowing refugees to settle, and letting them squat in housing that is already privately owned, effectively deposing the owners.

Actually the evidence is that the Batarians didn't completely control that region. Not only did they have considerable pirate activity there, but even with the help of those pirates they weren't sufficient to defeat even a small Alliance colony. It was space both the Alliance and Batarians were attempting to colonize simultaneously. The Batarians objected, tried to object in force, and lost. Humanity retalliated. Then the Batarians pulled back.

There is arguably some hypocracy in that on the one hand the Council were claiming territory when they weren't there on the ground yet, and in the other they are denying another race under similar circumstances. The only defence I can come up with there is that suitable Elcor worlds might be harder to find than suitable Quarian worlds. Any barren chunk of rock would be terraformable into something suitable to the Quarians, but naturally high gravity is tougher to arrange and not something that can be terraformed per se. Also the Council likely did control that area of space. They certainly had no qualms against sending ships there, unlike the Skyllian Verge, which they leave to others to police.

[Moiaussi]

Saphra Deden wrote...

You have your head stuck in the past, and somewhere else too, I might add.

Snappy comeback. So anything that is done in the Alliance's favour doesn't count since it is in the past? Hmmm, everything that you claim was done against the Alliance was also done in the past. Stop trying to cherry pick your evidence.

The Alliance wasn't given the chance.

Anderson can only oversee what they decide to allow him to see. There was no due process by default seeing as these people were arrested by a foreign power.

The Alliance had years to investigate and deal with this.

The Turians are usually pretty 'by the book.' What is your evidence these Turians weren't?

[KenKenpachi]

Saphra Deden wrote...

KenKenpachi wrote...

I take it you two never heard of something called...a Pardon have you?

The Paragon, ever the righteous.

It's not  criminal because I can get pardons for my friends.

How many Cerberus people are you planning to pardon? Just the ones on your ship?

Pretty much. and I play as a Paragade for the most. And yes being "Righteous" and having friends in high and low places pays off. Welcome to the real world. Being a Jack ass unsurrpisingly leaves you dead in a ditch one day. But why am I bothering, your not too bright and are 100% with  Cerberus and bend facts to suit your side of the story. Which is funny as its a damn game.