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[Someone With Mass]

It's a little harsh to expect everyone to have the same viewpoints as you.

Also, being a part of the construction of the Normandy might encourage future operations and constructions if they think it turned out well.

The Alliance have a lot they can gain on that.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 17 mai 2011 - 06:52 .

[Nathan Redgrave]

Saphra Deden wrote...

That's a different debate, and it was just an example. A theoretical. Imagine that the Normandy had been developed without any turian influence at all.

That wasn't my point; it's just a bad example. I already gave you a better one, didn't I? The nuclear booby-trapped probes, you know, the ones the Alliance might have faced censure for?

Or imagine it was the batarians who launched this anti-Cerberus raid.

Going to the batarians is another matter entirely. The Turians are just cool toward humans over past hostilities. Batarians are hostile in the present day, and that's not exactly a secret. Hell, there was once this amusing incident in which a batarian survey group deliberately falsified a survey report on a planet with medium mineral wealth, saying it had rich mineral wealth in a deliberate attempt to bait human interests to throw money away on a bad venture. That was a fun little misadventure...

My point is that the turians could be considered rivals, but not exactly hostiles. They're not on the same level as the batarians in the sense that the batarians would most likely grasp whatever advantages fate handed to them whereas the turians are more likely to pass such an advantage up if Alliance relations seem worth strengthening at the time (a likely scenario if Shepard saves the Council, as news reports indicate the Hierarchy is going out of their way to do just that; in the opposite timeline it's a riskier partnership by far, since it appears the Turians are on the defensive in the wake of humanity's rise to power).

Or that we designed the Normandy with the salarians.

I get what you're driving at, dammit, it was just a bad example.

Just use your damn brain and I'll be satisifed.

*yanks invisible dagger from chest*

[Nathan Redgrave]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Going to the batarians is another matter entirely. The Turians are... blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah I'm too dense to just answer the questions posed by the analogy.

This is what I mean when say that posing analogies in any discussions with people on this forum is tedious.

Thank you for dodging the point. There's nothing more intellectually stimulating than writing out an answer and having the person you're debating with blatantly refuse to answer it. Also, that wasn't about your initial analogy, it was about your batarian point being faulty at heart. I know the risks of the turians getting their hands on human technology. I also wonder how likely it is that the turians are going to get vital schematics or anything else that allows them to replicate such technology by interrogating an arrested prisoner. What, do Alliance personel have ship specs carbon-scored onto their brains or something? It's more likely the turians would gain intel on what the Alliance has done or is doing, rather than the technical specs of the tech the Alliance has created or is creating.

EDIT: Slight change above for clarification.

Modifié par Nathan Redgrave, 17 mai 2011 - 07:33 .

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...
I don't, but I do expect them to understand very simple analogies. I'm sick of what should be a one or two sentence analgoy being turned into a three paragraph essay because I know if I don't you people will ignore the main point and attack it on some irrelevant detail that, obviously, misses the point. It's tedious.

News flash: Everyone on this forum is forced to endure that.

[Moiaussi]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Any Cerberus member who has infiltrated the Alliance will have done so presumably to learn things and spy on the Alliance. Thus they'll be privy to Alliance secrets. Operational details, research, expenditures, strategies, future plans, that sort of thing.

Once the turians have them they can gril lthese Cerberus operatives for these same secrets.

To the extent they have memorized them, perhaps.

However, those secrets are already out. In not acting immediately against the infiltration, even more secrets will leak. It is like you are objecting to bailing water out of the sinking ship because you are afraid to get wet. Sure you feel nice and dry on the upper decks for now, but that doesn't mean the leaks aren't there.

Also, the information you are paranoid about getting into Turian hands is all information we should be sharing with each other right now anyway. Hello? Reaper invasion????? The Alliance needs a clean house to fight, or Cerberus has to step out of the shadows and make its case and either ally up or get out of the way.

The stakes are too high right now for petty cold war posturing.

[Nathan Redgrave]

Moiaussi, you do realize that the "Reaper invasion" angle can easily be turned into a reason to leave Cerberus alone for the time being, right?

[Someone With Mass]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Moiaussi, you do realize that the "Reaper invasion" angle can easily be turned into a reason to leave Cerberus alone for the time being, right?

Or even better. They can leave Shepard alone for the time being. 

[Moiaussi]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Moiaussi, you do realize that the "Reaper invasion" angle can easily be turned into a reason to leave Cerberus alone for the time being, right?

Only by die hard Cerberus fans who think that an organization with only 120 operatives (per EDI) can defeat the Reapers solo in any believable way, and those people will believe that no matter what I say.

[Nathan Redgrave]

EDIT: Cerberus at least knows the truth and is acting to do something about it, which is something, goddammit. Even Admiral Hackett gives them a grudging nod of appreciation for their actions in ME2, at the end of Arrival. If your enemy is the enemy of your other enemy, sometimes you just have swallow your pride and take what you can get.

Kind of like Anderson did with the Turians--ZING!

Someone With Mass wrote...

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Moiaussi, you do realize that the "Reaper invasion" angle can easily be turned into a reason to leave Cerberus alone for the time being, right?

Or even better. They can leave Shepard alone for the time being. 

Point... missing it. Ah, well.

The "Reaper invasion" angle is something that tends to come up against Anderson in this particular issue, as reason to lay blame at his and Kahlee's feet for the Grayson debacle (something they could never have anticipated, by the by). Of course, it's understandable that Anderson still doesn't percieve Cerberus as potential allies after ME2; he's not exactly that deeply in the loop on the specifics and most of what he sees of Cerberus is from the same angle we saw them from in ME1. But my point was that bringing up the Reaper invasion as a reason the take out Cerberus ASAP is practically begging to have your own argument bite you in the arse.

Modifié par Nathan Redgrave, 17 mai 2011 - 08:11 .

[Someone With Mass]

And yet somehow, they've managed to gather enough people to afford throwing them at Shepard, who will most likely kill them all with ease.

[Moiaussi]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Moiaussi, you do realize that the "Reaper invasion" angle can easily be turned into a reason to leave Cerberus alone for the time being, right?

Or even better. They can leave Shepard alone for the time being. 

The fact that they should all have been listening to Shepard all along is just a standard cliche. Shepard never tries to make any formal case, though, always insisting that people (and governments) should just blindly follow.

[Someone With Mass]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...
The "Reaper invasion" angle is something that tends to come up against Anderson in this particular issue, as reason to lay blame at his and Kahlee's feet for the Grayson debacle (something they could never have anticipated, by the by). Of course, it's understandable that Anderson still doesn't percieve Cerberus as potential allies after ME2; he's not exactly that deeply in the loop on the specifics and most of what he sees of Cerberus is from the same angle we saw them from in ME1. But my point was that bringing up the Reaper invasion as a reason the take out Cerberus ASAP is practically begging to have your own argument bite you in the arse.

Well, they are in Shepard's way quite a lot in ME3, and they've sent their best assassin to take him out. Can't really blame them for wanting Cerberus out of the way, so they can focus on the Reapers undisturbed.

[Moiaussi]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Moiaussi, you do realize that the "Reaper invasion" angle can easily be turned into a reason to leave Cerberus alone for the time being, right?

Or even better. They can leave Shepard alone for the time being. 

Point... missing it. Ah, well.

The "Reaper invasion" angle is something that tends to come up against Anderson in this particular issue, as reason to lay blame at his and Kahlee's feet for the Grayson debacle (something they could never have anticipated, by the by). Of course, it's understandable that Anderson still doesn't percieve Cerberus as potential allies after ME2; he's not exactly that deeply in the loop on the specifics and most of what he sees of Cerberus is from the same angle we saw them from in ME1. But my point was that bringing up the Reaper invasion as a reason the take out Cerberus ASAP is practically begging to have your own argument bite you in the arse.

Working with Cerberus does not equal leaving them alone. Cerberus was actively withholding vital information from the Alliance. I am not talking about intel regarding itself either, but intel regarding the Collectors and Reapers.

[Nathan Redgrave]

Moiaussi wrote...

The fact that they should all have been listening to Shepard all along is just a standard cliche. Shepard never tries to make any formal case, though, always insisting that people (and governments) should just blindly follow.

By the time ME2 rolls around the Council is being pretty unreasonable about it. Sovereign, even in pieces, was a pretty stellar piece of work, and the whole "lolsarenlied" line of reasoning is a flimsy rebuttal that fails to account for the Beacon or Vigil in any meaningful way. A Prothean specialist who understood the nature of the beacon like Liara did could have given the Council reason to take Shepard's vision more seriously, and the Council seems to think Shepard imagined/made up the Prothean V.I. on Ilos. Their stance on Sovereign being geth technology also reeks of grasping-at-straws logic, especially if Legion happens to be in your squad during the meeting with the Council.

[Nathan Redgrave]

Moiaussi wrote...

Working with Cerberus does not equal leaving them alone. Cerberus was actively withholding vital information from the Alliance. I am not talking about intel regarding itself either, but intel regarding the Collectors and Reapers.

Actively withholding? From the guys who thought Cerberus might be responsible themselves? Can't imagine why they wouldn't drop info packets off on that particular doorstep.

Cerberus did take some risks on that point, mind, but it doesn't look like giving the Alliance said intel would have any particular benefits. Might be detrimental, as there definitely were elements in the Alliance that wanted to interfere with Shepard (fortunately we have Anderson and Hackett to thank for keeping them out of Shepard's hair).

[Moiaussi]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

The fact that they should all have been listening to Shepard all along is just a standard cliche. Shepard never tries to make any formal case, though, always insisting that people (and governments) should just blindly follow.

By the time ME2 rolls around the Council is being pretty unreasonable about it. Sovereign, even in pieces, was a pretty stellar piece of work, and the whole "lolsarenlied" line of reasoning is a flimsy rebuttal that fails to account for the Beacon or Vigil in any meaningful way. A Prothean specialist who understood the nature of the beacon like Liara did could have given the Council reason to take Shepard's vision more seriously, and the Council seems to think Shepard imagined/made up the Prothean V.I. on Ilos. Their stance on Sovereign being geth technology also reeks of grasping-at-straws logic, especially if Legion happens to be in your squad during the meeting with the Council.

While I for the most part agree with you, keep in mind that Shepard agrees to work with Cerberus before knowing any of that. Also, he could make the case regarding going after/dealing with the Collectors without having to mention Reapers at all.

He could also make the case for war preparations without mentioning the Reapers, on the basis that if Sovereign is of Geth design, the Geth could be building more, and that regardless, the Council were not prepared for that battle, that the current state of the military is lacking.

2 years of reduced Geth activity means nothing when the Geth production hasn't been reduced.

He simply keeps falling back on "OMG, Reapers!"

Meanwhile, Cerberus suppresses intel on the nature of the reaper husk, on an additional perfectly intact beacon they recover, on Prothean/Collector DNA, etc, etc, etc., all evidence that would make Shepard's case a lot easier.

[khordlambert]

Saphra Deden wrote...

I'd have been making plans to invade the Perseus Veil and destroy the geth once and for all myself were I an Alliance officer.

And considering the Geth we HAVE been fighting are a fragging minority I have to wonder how well that would really work.

[Moiaussi]

Saphra Deden wrote...

I'd have been making plans to invade the Perseus Veil and destroy the geth once and for all myself were I an Alliance officer.

Even if they were not implemented, such plans should have been drawn up. Shepard should have been doing recon into the veil at the start of ME2.

It was also retconned in ME2 that instead of 'no ship has ever returned from the veil' to 'brave prospectors occassionaly risk trips into the veil andreturn.'

Halcyon is the other side of the veil, and noone even mentions it in game. We only know this from the planet description.

[Someone With Mass]

Eh, if you deal with the heretic geth on Legion's loyalty mission, the rest of them won't bother you at all unless you enter the veil.

[Moiaussi]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Eh, if you deal with the heretic geth on Legion's loyalty mission, the rest of them won't bother you at all unless you enter the veil.

You don't know that until near the end of ME2 though, and even then it is unclear if there has been any proper recon sent into the veil.

[Nathan Redgrave]

Moiaussi wrote...

While I for the most part agree with you, keep in mind that Shepard agrees to work with Cerberus before knowing any of that. Also, he could make the case regarding going after/dealing with the Collectors without having to mention Reapers at all.

Shepard has enough experience with the Council's reluctance to incite the wrath of the Terminus races to make a call like that without knowing much about the Council's stance on the Reapers. Shepard also was unaware that the two most likely forms of evidence--Sovereign and Vigil--were a bust.

Meanwhile, Cerberus suppresses intel on the nature of the reaper husk, on an additional perfectly intact beacon they recover, on Prothean/Collector DNA, etc, etc, etc., all evidence that would make Shepard's case a lot easier.

I'm sorry, but what beacon? Firewalker? There's no indication that they got anything from that relating to the Reapers--the e-mail just mentions new avenues for energy transfer and biotics. And how do you know they're actively keeping all of that from the Alliance? It could simply be a matter of having to work around Alliance and Council distrust of Cerberus intel.