183 réponses à ce sujet

[Moiaussi]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Shepard has enough experience with the Council's reluctance to incite the wrath of the Terminus races to make a call like that without knowing much about the Council's stance on the Reapers. Shepard also was unaware that the two most likely forms of evidence--Sovereign and Vigil--were a bust.

Understood, but when he found out they were a bust, he could have responded with what he did know, and pointed out that even if the Reapers aren't coming, there are immediate threats that need to be dealt with.

At the time, does he even know that the Collectors and Reapers are linked?

I'm sorry, but what beacon? Firewalker? There's no indication that they got anything from that relating to the Reapers--the e-mail just mentions new avenues for energy transfer and biotics. And how do you know they're actively keeping all of that from the Alliance? It could simply be a matter of having to work around Alliance and Council distrust of Cerberus intel.

It was a side mission, and it was a perfectly intact beacon. And we know it is being kept from a combination of facts, namely that there were Cerberus research teams there rather than Alliance and/or Council, and in other similar situations (the Collector trap), we know that TIM has actively suppressed intel.

Also if Shepard dies, it is a Cerberus fleet heading for the Collector base, not an Alliance fleet.

[Nathan Redgrave]

Moiaussi wrote...

Understood, but when he found out they were a bust, he could have responded with what he did know, and pointed out that even if the Reapers aren't coming, there are immediate threats that need to be dealt with.

At the time, does he even know that the Collectors and Reapers are linked?

No, but from his perspective, there aren't any other explanations for why the Collectors have suddenly taken an interesting in "collecting" human colonists en masse. The idea that keeps coming up with Anderson and the VS--that Cerberus is behind it--is a bit too conspiracy-theorist to ring as plausible to Shepard.

I admit a particularly crafty Shepard would be well inclined to downplay the Reapers and up-play the Collectors (I thought this would have made a nice angle for Charm/Intimidate options with the Council), but beyond that Shepard isn't being particularly foolish.

It was a side mission, and it was a perfectly intact beacon. And we know it is being kept from a combination of facts, namely that there were Cerberus research teams there rather than Alliance and/or Council, and in other similar situations (the Collector trap), we know that TIM has actively suppressed intel.

That was a video archive, if you're talking about the Blue Suns mission, and if you think another vision that nobody but Shepard is able to make sense of would count as evidence toward anything, you're being a bit too optimistic.

The Collector Ship trap is a special case; it was a distress signal intended to be recieved by Shepard and TIM knew it. Keeping a trapped distress call from its "intended" target isn't much in the way of suppressing intel, and probably did the turians a favor anyway. The Turians probably would have recognized the trap, but I doubt they'd have any idea what they were getting into. If Hackett's info in a pre-SM Arrival run is any indication, the Collectors would have wiped the floor with the Turians.

Also if Shepard dies, it is a Cerberus fleet heading for the Collector base, not an Alliance fleet.

Of course it is. Do you honestly think Cerberus is going to hand that sort of tech over to anyone else for study? That's why I never preserve the base, because I know it's only going to Cerberus, because Shepard knows it's only going to Cerberus, and trust the Illusive Man about as far as I can spit (which is a shorter distance than most people, by the by).

I just contest the idea that TIM would be actively suppressing intel in regards to the Collectors and Reapers outside of his own operations to stop them without the Alliance "getting in our way." (Reasonable precaution at the time of Horizon, as Alliance intel casts Cerberus as a prime suspect.) In Retribution he seems happy that Anderson will likely be taking action against the Reapers. I think it's less that he's actively suppressing intel than it is that he's disinclined to expect Cerberus intel to be taken seriously.

[Nathan Redgrave]

Saphra Deden wrote...

khordlambert wrote...

And considering the Geth we HAVE been fighting are a fragging minority I have to wonder how well that would really work.

There'd be no way for me to know that, now would there?

I wouldn't be drawing up plans for an invasion of geth space on account of there being too many bloody unknowns involved. How many are there? What are the defenses like? Nobody wants a potentially impossible and definitely costly invasion campaign unless they need it; better to just drive them back and keep them in their own space.

This would be simpler if recon beyond the Veil weren't such an issue. There isn't much to draw up plans with if you have no clear picture of what you're planning for.

[Seboist]

The problem with giving the Alliance/Council the CB is that they would have to go through the Terminus Systems in order to get to it.

[Nathan Redgrave]

Seboist wrote...

The problem with giving the Alliance/Council the CB is that they would have to go through the Terminus Systems in order to get to it.

Well, there's that.

[Seboist]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Seboist wrote...

The problem with giving the Alliance/Council the CB is that they would have to go through the Terminus Systems in order to get to it.

Well, there's that.

Clearly the alternative is giving it to Aria.

[Someone With Mass]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

I wouldn't be drawing up plans for an invasion of geth space on account of there being too many bloody unknowns involved. How many are there? What are the defenses like? Nobody wants a potentially impossible and definitely costly invasion campaign unless they need it; better to just drive them back and keep them in their own space.

This would be simpler if recon beyond the Veil weren't such an issue. There isn't much to draw up plans with if you have no clear picture of what you're planning for.

The heretic geth were about 5% of their total number. So, yeah. A campaign against them on that size wouldn't be so beneficial. 

[Moiaussi]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

No, but from his perspective, there aren't any other explanations for why the Collectors have suddenly taken an interesting in "collecting" human colonists en masse. The idea that keeps coming up with Anderson and the VS--that Cerberus is behind it--is a bit too conspiracy-theorist to ring as plausible to Shepard.

I admit a particularly crafty Shepard would be well inclined to downplay the Reapers and up-play the Collectors (I thought this would have made a nice angle for Charm/Intimidate options with the Council), but beyond that Shepard isn't being particularly foolish.

That is exactly what I was suggesting though. Shepard keeps acting as if everyone should just believe him or simply do what he says because he is 'the hero.' If he had simply said 'regardless of whether the Reapers exist or not, colonies really are disappearing. Here is what I know. Now, do I have your leave to investigate?

That was a video archive, if you're talking about the Blue Suns mission, and if you think another vision that nobody but Shepard is able to make sense of would count as evidence toward anything, you're being a bit too optimistic.

Even without the cipher Shepard recognized the term 'Reapers' from the initial beacon, and that beacon exploded in his face. Presumably an intact one would provide a much better transfer. There is no reason at all to assume it wouldn't work for anyone else using it. We know it worked for Saren.

We also know for a fact that the cipher is transferrable by mind link.

The Collector Ship trap is a special case; it was a distress signal intended to be recieved by Shepard and TIM knew it. Keeping a trapped distress call from its "intended" target isn't much in the way of suppressing intel, and probably did the turians a favor anyway. The Turians probably would have recognized the trap, but I doubt they'd have any idea what they were getting into. If Hackett's info in a pre-SM Arrival run is any indication, the Collectors would have wiped the floor with the Turians.

What do you mean 'intended to be received by Shepard?' That isn't even implied. Why would he need to jam a signal intended for Shepard? Why would he even get said signal before Shepard? The worst that would have likely happened to the Turians is they would have lost a boarding party, then their cruisers would have opened up and the Collector vessel would have been toast. An un-upgraded SR2 was enough to take out the Collector ship in only a couple passes. A cruiser based task force should have been able to take it down easily. It wasn't that tough a ship.

If it had been so tough a Turian task force would have lost to it, the SM would really have been suicide. Shepard would never have made it onto the base. The Collector ship wasn't even neccessary to get to the base. They got the IFF later, from yet another source TIM suppressed.

Of course it is. Do you honestly think Cerberus is going to hand that sort of tech over to anyone else for study? That's why I never preserve the base, because I know it's only going to Cerberus, because Shepard knows it's only going to Cerberus, and trust the Illusive Man about as far as I can spit (which is a shorter distance than most people, by the by).

You are making my case. Think about what you are saying. TIM is more worried about Cerberus getting all the toys than about actually stopping the Reapers.

I just contest the idea that TIM would be actively suppressing intel in regards to the Collectors and Reapers outside of his own operations to stop them without the Alliance "getting in our way." (Reasonable precaution at the time of Horizon, as Alliance intel casts Cerberus as a prime suspect.) In Retribution he seems happy that Anderson will likely be taking action against the Reapers. I think it's less that he's actively suppressing intel than it is that he's disinclined to expect Cerberus intel to be taken seriously.

Unfortunately, that means that the Alliance are less prepared than they should be for the Reapers' coming. TIM is putting Cerberus above survival.

[Moiaussi]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

I wouldn't be drawing up plans for an invasion of geth space on account of there being too many bloody unknowns involved. How many are there? What are the defenses like? Nobody wants a potentially impossible and definitely costly invasion campaign unless they need it; better to just drive them back and keep them in their own space.

This would be simpler if recon beyond the Veil weren't such an issue. There isn't much to draw up plans with if you have no clear picture of what you're planning for.

Of course good intel is a part of any such planning process. Recon beyond the veil isn't a problem at all. The Geth can't see the Normandy.

[khordlambert]

Moiaussi wrote...




Unfortunately, that means that the Alliance are less prepared than they should be for the Reapers' coming. TIM is putting Cerberus above survival.

No he's not! Cause Cerberus IS humanity and... I honestly cannot say this with a straight face. How on earth do the Cerberus supporters go through this kind of mental gymnastics?

Modifié par khordlambert, 18 mai 2011 - 05:07 .

[Nathan Redgrave]

Moiaussi wrote...

What do you mean 'intended to be received by Shepard?'

Ask yourself why the Collectors would be interested in luring in a random ship full of turians and then ask yourself who else the Collectors already know is keeping an ear to the ground for any sign of Collector activity. After Horizon, and more specifically after Shepard arrived so quickly on Horizon, Harbinger knows Shepard is keeping informed of Collector activities somehow. Passing a false distress call through seemingly unrelated channels makes for a good tactic, but Harbinger evidently screwed up the encryption. 

Why would he even get said signal before Shepard?

Because he's the source of Shepard's info. Do you see Shepard keeping tabs on turian communications?

The worst that would have likely happened to the Turians is they would have lost a boarding party, then their cruisers would have opened up and the Collector vessel would have been toast.

Wow, their "cruisers." You really assume they'd have a flock of cruisers ready and waiting? For a random event they have no real reason to send multiple cruisers at? You think the turians would know enough about what they were getting into to do that?

Modifié par Nathan Redgrave, 18 mai 2011 - 05:23 .

[Nathan Redgrave]

Moiaussi wrote...

Of course good intel is a part of any such planning process. Recon beyond the veil isn't a problem at all. The Geth can't see the Normandy.

One ship can't effectively do reconnaisance over an entire series of systems, it's too damn big. Think of the fuel, the times they'd have to vent their heat sinks and expose themselves--Normandy is optimized for short-range stealth ops, not the sort of thing you're thinking of.

[Moiaussi]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Of course good intel is a part of any such planning process. Recon beyond the veil isn't a problem at all. The Geth can't see the Normandy.

One ship can't effectively do reconnaisance over an entire series of systems, it's too damn big. Think of the fuel, the times they'd have to vent their heat sinks and expose themselves--Normandy is optimized for short-range stealth ops, not the sort of thing you're thinking of.

Come off it, they had no problems in ME1 or ME2 (other than the Collectors, who could see them). They were usually in hostile territory.

Fuel wasn't even an issue for the SR1 (unless you are going to try to argue that the Geth inexplicably left all the refueling bases running?)

There is no information on how big the Quarian empire was, either. For all we know it was only a few systems.

[Nathan Redgrave]

Moiaussi wrote...

Fuel wasn't even an issue for the SR1

It wasn't a gameplay issue. But canonically, ships require fuel to travel significant distances and they have to occasionally discharge their drive cores as well. Also, the Normandy's stealth system only works for a few hours. That's why I'm saying it's no good for this sort of op. And again, Geth space is too big for one ship to perform effective recon in alone.

Additionally, they'd have to use FTL to get from one geth-controlled system to another in a feasible amount of time, but FTL isn't compatible with stealth.

If the Alliance builds a fleet of stealth probes, that would be something. But the Normandy by itself is only good for excursions into geth space on a get-in/get-out basis.

Modifié par Nathan Redgrave, 18 mai 2011 - 05:45 .

[InvincibleHero]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Of course good intel is a part of any such planning process. Recon beyond the veil isn't a problem at all. The Geth can't see the Normandy.

One ship can't effectively do reconnaisance over an entire series of systems, it's too damn big. Think of the fuel, the times they'd have to vent their heat sinks and expose themselves--Normandy is optimized for short-range stealth ops, not the sort of thing you're thinking of.

i don't think that'd be an issue other than resupply. Space is awful big and the chances you run into anything far away from the relays is insignificantly small. I don't think they run silent all the time.

[Nathan Redgrave]

InvincibleHero wrote...

i don't think that'd be an issue other than resupply. Space is awful big and the chances you run into anything far away from the relays is insignificantly small. I don't think they run silent all the time.

Of course they don't, but you're still talking about a massive recon op spanning multiple systems, not all of which are actually known to the Alliance.

[InvincibleHero]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

i don't think that'd be an issue other than resupply. Space is awful big and the chances you run into anything far away from the relays is insignificantly small. I don't think they run silent all the time.

Of course they don't, but you're still talking about a massive recon op spanning multiple systems, not all of which are actually known to the Alliance.

Use the probes for something other than mining. Perhaps get scout patterns. (imagine if said by Mordin.)

[Moiaussi]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

i don't think that'd be an issue other than resupply. Space is awful big and the chances you run into anything far away from the relays is insignificantly small. I don't think they run silent all the time.

Of course they don't, but you're still talking about a massive recon op spanning multiple systems, not all of which are actually known to the Alliance.

Why wouldn't they? It is not a given that the Geth haven't expanded, but most of these were previously settled worlds. What was there is pretty much common knowledge. The real question is what is there now.

[Nathan Redgrave]

Moiaussi wrote...

Why wouldn't they? It is not a given that the Geth haven't expanded, but most of these were previously settled worlds. What was there is pretty much common knowledge. The real question is what is there now.

And finding that out means either retrieving intel on geth-claimed system coordinates or manually scouring space lightyear by cubic lightyear. Does that second one seem feasible to you?

[Moiaussi]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Seboist wrote...

The problem with giving the Alliance/Council the CB is that they would have to go through the Terminus Systems in order to get to it.

As well as the fact that each Council race would loot the thing for whatever they could carry and then scuttle off to their own little dark corner of the galaxy to study what they managed to carry. They wouldn't work together or share it. Better that one faction has the whole thing than half a dozen each a tiny piece.

They wouldn't officially share it, but don't you think it is strange that Garrus had such easy access to the Thranix plans?

[Someone With Mass]

Moiaussi wrote...
They wouldn't officially share it, but don't you think it is strange that Garrus had such easy access to the Thranix plans?

You mean just as easy access Jacob had to armor plating designs?

Not really.  They could just have a few contects within the military they can use.

[Seboist]

TIM isn't against sharing tech. At the end of Retribution he's thankful that Reaperfied Grayson is in Alliance hands as that means more people will be looking into the Reapers.