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[mr_afk]

Introduction
One of the toughest enemies to deal with in the DA2 universe is the stealth-er. Whether it be cheeky assassins backflipping in your face or rage demons diving into the ground, facing invisible enemies requires specialised tactics.

There are many of such tactics floating out there in there but discovering all the methods available and what works best for you can be quite a pain. This is a compilatory effort to group and explain the fundamental methods that can be used to reduce an enemy stealthing from a dreaded jaws moment to a simple 'meh' moment.

There are four concepts that will make your dealings with such enemies much less painful:
- Crowd control
- Killing them fast
- Destealthing them
- Soaking the dmg

In short, assassins and rage demons will do most of their damage through their assassination/backstabs. This is due to the rather nasty way their attacks avoid armour and/or elemental resistance.
The only way to prevent them delivering this debilitating attack is by not allowing them to stealth.

Crowd control (especially chained) can prevent assassins from been able to stealth in the first place. Killing them fast also serves this purpose, as been dead is known to make it harder to stealth.
If they do manage to stealth, the best approach is to simply unstealth them. Failing that, you want to have the right sponge to soak up the dmg - as having your weaker companions one-shotted is a somewhat undesirable outcome.

CROWD CONTROL

A simple concept, crowd control just involves disabling the enemies - as if the enemy is disabled it can't stealth and stick sharp implements into your back. Chaining CCs (not sure if it's an actual term) refers to the nifty process of stacking one CC after another, such that your chosen target is almost permanently out of the fight and unable to avoid any damage you want to inflict. 

General:
All attacks, both basic and abilities have slight CC potential. The exact nature of this CC will depend on the element type you are using and if you are inflicting enough force (refer lower for explanation of force mechanics).
This means that basic attacks and dmg spells will all have the ability to interrupt enemies and prevent them from attacking - inflicting minor freeze/slow, immolation, stun, horror, and weird-scrubbing-at-eyes or knock-back. This allows tactics such as focus fire to potentially cause semi-permanent CC (something akin to knock-back locks). 
(As an interesting side note, damage aside I think that elemental weapons may have larger CC potential as instead of imparting knockdown they impart elemental effects which seem to last longer.)

However, this does not work quite as well on most assassins and rage demons. This is partially due to typically been of elite rank and thus having a greater max health (so more force is needed to trigger effects) and also due to the way that they become invulnerable and untargetable while stealthing (so that they generally cannot be interrupted out of it). Due to the potential for all abilities to CC I will just list the CCs of reasonable duration and reliability. Stuns are included, but due to their short duration they must be followed up with further CCs to be effective.

Mages:
Mages have almost all the crowd control abilities.

Winter's grasp - Freezes and/or Slows (variable time?). Sets up Brittle.
Cone of Cold - Ditto.
Petrify - Paralyse (15seconds). More reliably sets up Brittle.
Crushing Prison - Paralyse (10seconds). High damage CCC against Staggers.
Glyph of Paralysis - Paralyse (10seconds). Can paralyse groups.
Sleep - Paralyse (10seconds). Relatively unreliable at paralysing target. Can paralyse groups.

Gravitic Ring - Slow (20 seconds). Slows enemies to a complete halt based on distance from epicentre.
Haemorrhage - Paralyse (unspecified). Seems to stop groups of enemies from attacking for a brief period, though whether this if from a version of a knock-back effect (e.g. due to damage/animation) or paralyse chance I can't say. High damage CCC against Staggers.

Mind Blast - Stun
Horror - Stun (10seconds) - One of the best early game single target CCs.
Fist of the Maker - Stun. CCC against Staggers.

Warriors:
The constant knock-back/interruptions from the force of a warriors autoattacks can provide almost enough CC to prevent stealthing. Unfortunately they may be able to still escape, so using stuns and atacks with large force is the more reliable option. 

Cleave - Stun CCC. Once upgraded to claymore, brittle targets will be stunned. Bit of a rubbish CCC really.
Pommel Strike - Stun (8seconds). The short cooldown (10secs) and extended stun duration means that it can be useful. Sets up Stagger.
Devour - Stun (5seconds). The long cooldown (100+secs) means that this can't be relied upon for stuns. CCC against Disorient. Sets up Stagger.
Holy Smite - Stun. 50% chance.
Silence - While technically not a CC, silence prevents enemies from using abilities and thus prevents stealthing.

Rogues:
Probably the worse at CC but as they need the least (as they are the best at the killing things fast part) it works out pretty well.

Pinning shot - Pinning (10seconds). Currently its ability to setup a Disorient is bugged.
Miasmic Flask - Stun (6seconds). Can stun groups (friendly fire issues).
Fatiguing Fog - Slow (10seconds). Won't prevent assassins from stealthing but will slow them down. Sets up Disorient.
Power - Stun. 6% chance (if Speed and Precision are also stacked with harmony there is an 8% chance). Additional damage vs Stunned enemies (so may be useful if you rely lots on stuns for CC).

Other:
While not strictly speaking disabling an enemy, imparting knockdown/force effects and throwing around enemies do have some CC effect. Here are some attacks with enough damage or a large enough force multiplier will enable short term force effects. 

Mages - pull of the abyss, telekinetic blast, mind blast, spirit bolt (imparts short-term horror), stone fist (knockdown)
Warrior - shield bash, assail(?)
Rogues - rush

KILLING THEM FAST

While it is all well and good to have an enemy permanently locked away in a corner for an entire fight, things become much more simple when you simply kill them off instead.

The central reasons for killing stealthy enemies fast is that
- They do stacks of damage when left to their own devices
- They will steal and drink potions (not including rage demons)
- It is a pain to try and maintain CC for too long

This leads to the rather straight-forward solution - Kill them fast. There are two approaches to killing something fast, namely focus fire and CCCs. The need to kill an enemy fast is inversely proportional to your ability to maintain crowd control. For example, if you had an assassin trapped in the middle of a gravitic ring and no other serious threats running around you could take your leisure in dispatching it; whether by autoattacks or something more flashy.

Also, if you're not locking them down with CCs there's nothing to stop them stealing your potions. This can greatly reduce your ability to kill them fast so the best next thing is to simply not carry any potions to steal. You can also carry elfroot root potions without any risk of potion stealing.

This means that if you don't plan on using too much crowd control (e.g. non-force mages) it becomes a little more important to kill things in a fast and efficient way. I am of the opinion that everybody should have fun experimenting to find out what works for them, so by no means take these following tactics/strategies as the be all and end all.

Assassin-Killing Stratagems
Basically, your party set-up will determine the tactics you use. This means that there are many very different approaches to take.

Focus Fire Method
Not sure how much of a 'method' this is, but attacking enemies which are been CC'd is an effective way to get in a few free shots. By focus firing the full dps of your party can be unleashed on that hapless individual. This allows you to kill enemies very fast without pulling off any CCCs.

Attacking non-CC'd enemies can work as well, however this method faces problems such as the assassin simply chugging down a potion then disappearing in a puff of smoke. Thus if you're going to whittle any enemies health down little by little, you're best off doing it while they can't escape.

CCCs
Strictly speaking, this method does not necessarily have to be distinct from focus fire methods. However, if you pull off a high damaging CCC or chain CCCs you shouldn't require any additional help to end most enemies.

Firstly, you need to setup a CCC which can than be capitalised immediately after. If the enemy is still alive, either finish him off with a few damage abilites/autoattacks or setup another CCC. The most reliable methods to kill enemies involve a combination of followup CCC's as this removes the ability for the enemy to heal or stealth as it simply dies so fast.

The CCC Triangle


Alternatively, if that fancy bit of photoshop doesn't work for you, just check out the dragonage wiki which is a great stop for any information.


So here are some boss/elite killing methods:

One Target (applicable to any boss, whether it be mage, assassin or commander)
Mage Hawke
Merrill: Petrify --> CC & Brittle - Cold spells could work here as well
Varric: Archer's Lance --> CCC
Aveline: Shield Bash --> Stagger & minor CC (from force) - Pommel strike could work here as well
Mage Hawke: Haemorrhage --> CCC & Dead.

Usually the second half is not necessary except for in the case of bosses. In this combination the enemy is under permanent interruption and receiving two of the most powerful CCCs in the game (though still not comparable to assassinate).

The strategy of hitting off a Brittle CCC right off the bat is applicable to all classes, though generally the best brittle CCC is assassinate for hawke assassins, and archer's lance (through companions) for any other hawke.
Friendly fire is a large issue for the archer's lance so if you do set up tactics involving the brittling of elites and the following archer's lance, be sure to check if that lance is going straight up another companion's backside.

Rogue DW Hawke (courtesy of Jack-Nader):
Hawke: Rush --> Knockdown
Hawke: Assassinate --> Dead or almost dead
Hawke: Twin Fangs --> Dead

By knocking down enemies you have ample of time to casually assasinate them (which should kill most enemy assassins) and twin fang them (if they manage to survive).
By solely using hawke your party is allowed to concentrate on the rest of the mob. An alternative way to kill off assassins from the start of the fight with assassin-Hawkes is

Merrill/Anders: Petrify/Winter's Grasp --> Brittle & CC
Assassin-Hawke: Assassinate --> CCC & Dead

Warrior S&S Hawke
Varric: Fatiguing Fog --> Disorient
Hawke: Assault/Scatter --> CCC & Dead

Hawke: Combination of Shield Bash, Pommel Strike, Assault and Scatter --> Constant stun/interrupt & Dead


Targeting a Group
When dealing with groups of assassins/mobs in numbers that are almost as dangerous, picking off one assassin is probably not the most efficient way to do things.

Mage Hawke
Mage Hawke: Pull of the Abyss --> Clusters enemies
Varric: Fatiguing Fog --> Disorients and Slows group (Slow provides minor CC and prevents them from unclustering)
Mage Hawke: Walking Bomb --> Disorient CCC = twice the max hp of the enemy if killed
Aveline: Scatter & Assault --> Disorient CCC & exploding the walking bomb

or alternatively, if a gravitic ring is dropped on the disoriented cluster (for proper CC)
Merrill: Stone Fist --> Disorient CCC and/or exploding the walking bomb
Hawke: Spirit Bolt --> Disorient CCC and/or exploding the walking bomb
Here's the Brekker fight as example


General Tactics
Other CCCs and combinations to how they are utilised are very viable. 
For example, Arelex used the spike damage of rogues to trigger Walking Bombs.

I'll list more strategies soon (and maybe some videos to demonstrate)

SOAKING THE DMG

When all your destealth abilities are on cool-down and getting stabbed seems inevitable, all is not lost - there are still means to reduce the damage of the deadly backstab.

Mitigating the damage from backstabs is done by two ways - Using the right character and increasing dmg resistance.

The idea of the 'right character' involves simply not getting your party members stabbed, especially the more fragile ones. The best and most reliable appoach to this is to use the dog (who is amazing at soaking backstabs and immune to rage demons) and decoy. This involves dropping the dog/using decoy and retreating a few steps, basically leaving it as a sacrificial sponge inviting a backstab. This usually works quite well due to the assassin's tendency to stab the nearest thing and the large amounts of threat they somehow seem to draw.
However, if you wait too long what may happen is that the assassin is already right next to you and you'll get stabbed. Which is very sad.

Failing that, the next best approach is to bail your fragile companions/everybody out of there and hope for the assassin to either to stab a sturdier companion with more hp and damage resistance (i.e. Aveline) or for it to run out of stealth. This approach is best coupled with the next part, increasing damage resistance.

Increasing damage resistance is referring not only to passives and armour properties (which will help a lot), but also to abilities such as stonewall and barrier. Fully upgraded, these abilities will confer 100%dmg resistance. This means that these abilities will render assassin attacks ineffective.
The nasty tickier part is the really short duration times (e.g. barrier has 6seconds). This makes timing it a lot harder as too late and you feel the full force of their stab, too early and it will run out...

Another thing to consider for your tank is getting immunity to critical hits. This can be done either by the S&S talent safeguard or via Ring of No Wishes and Aveline's unique dlc ring. Immunity to crits prevents most backstabs from dealing crazy damages and will practically remove the threat of backstabs for that companion.

A fun (albeit risky) way to do things for reavers is to simply wait for what is effectively a ~200-400% boost to their damage. Of course if simply kills you instead that won't be too useful.

DESTEALTHING

The First Basic Principle
The basic principle to destealthing enemies is that of force. Force is the game mechanic which determines whether attacks will interrupt actions and inflict additional effects.

In basic terms,
force = dmg inflicted x force multiplier - fortitude

In order for that force to do anything it needs to be large enough relative to the max health:
1. <10% of max health = twitch of head - no interruption of actions
2. <20% of max health = knocked back a step - interrupted actions
3. <30% of max health = knocked back several steps - interrupted actions
4. >30% of max health = knocked of down/sent flying - interrupted actions

(Note that the knockback effect is specific to physical damage and that elemental damages will have different effects - but still based on the same force mechanics.)

These force mechanics apply both ways - usually force mechanics focus on methods to reducing knock-back issues, but hey, why not use these mechanics to give enemies some knockback issues of their own?
It is by interrupting an enemy that it is destealthed. This means that attacks without enough force (<10% of enemies max health) will only result in some pretty dazed colours/bit of blood but no destealthing.

So how do you increase the force of your attacks?
Quite simply by increasing your damage and using abilities with large force multipliers. Getting the force mage spec if you're a mage will also be very useful due to the passive 125% force.

Increasing damage can be done by:
a) Increasing your base stat and/or crit dmg (pretty obvious)
Equipping weapons with a high base dmg (also pretty obvious)
c) Using elemental abilities/weapons (as they bypass enemy armour)
d) Using elements corresponding with elemental weakness (double the damage)

Increasing your damage isn't all that important when paired with the right abilities (though the base damage is included in most force calculations and damage does play a role in some cases). We'll get to the abilities later.


The Second Basic Principle
You may think that all you need to do now is just smack around assassins with the force but there's still a few extra elements involved in the art of destealthing enemies.
The second concept is that enemies have an invulnerable period as and after they stealth which only certain abilities can ignore. This means that timing plays a large role in pulling off a successful destealth.

In most cases you will have to wait a second or so after an enemy stealths before attempting to destealth it. However, there is a fine line between going too early such that your ability does nothing and going too late such that the assassin has moved away and is just about to stab you. Which is the unpleasantness which we're aiming to avoid.
So, timing is everything. 

With experience it should become second nature, but in the beginning you'll have experiment around a bit and get a feel of it. I'll link some videos which have nice demonstrations of the timing you need later.


The Third Basic Principle
If I made it seem like almost anything with enough force can destealth enemies I apologise. In theory they can, but in practice only abilities with aoe (area of effect) damage will be able to reliably target stealthed enemies. This is due to the rather annoying way that assassins become untargetable the second they start to stealth.
A few non-aoe abilities can also be used with practice though they are slightly trickier, as they rely on positioning the stealthed enemy between another targetable enemy.

But anyhow, we'll get on to the part you're interested in.


The Abilities 
Here is the summary of the abilites that can be used for destealthing:



Here is the more comprehensive/detailed list of all the techniques I've learnt about/may be possible. If I've missed anything please tell me and I'll add it in. The ones in bold are the main ones you'll be wanting to be using.

Mage
Elemental:

• Fireball - (1.35 x base dmg; x2/x4): Much like the fist of the maker, fireballs can destealth enemies if you have high enough base damages and/or stack-loads of +%fire. Fireballs may have greater ability against enemies vulnerable to it.
• Firestorm - (1.3/1.7 x base dmg; x2): Similar to the fireball, this is one of the most unreliable ways to destealth enemies. I'm not even sure if it's possible. As before, it may have more luck against vulnerable enemies.
• Cone of Cold - (3.05 x base dmg; x2): Probably one of the best way to destealth rage demons and a decent method against anything else, the cone of cold sports reasonably high damage, especially against enemies weak to cold (e.g. Templar Hunters & Rage Demons)

Primal:

• Chain Lightning - (3.14 x base dmg; x2): Rather unreliable as it depends on there been an enemy near the stealthed assassin. Basically, zapping an enemy nearby a stealthed enemy will cause the lightning to arc across and zap it out of stealth. This mainly has uses when there's a crowd of enemies and one of them stealths in the middle of it. I'm pretty sure tempest doesn't work.

Spirit:

• Walking Bomb - (LOTs of dmg); Probably the most unreliable ability, not even sure why I'm including it besides the possibility for major hilarity if you manage to pulls this off. I believe I've done this once but I am not too certain, I think it works to kill any nearby stealthed enemies (which is just effective as destealthing really)

Arcane:

• Mind Blast - (base dmg; x6/x18); Another reliable ability. Probably the main one that non-force mages will use. 

Creation:

• Gylph of Paralysis - (N/A); Paralyses enemies. It is one of the few abilites that can affect enemies in the process of stealthing and back-stabbing. I am not too sure about its destealthing abilities however, so someone tell me and I'll update this. Also, if this works sleep might work. Though I have doubts.
• Glyph of Repulsion - (base dmg; x6/x18); I'm also not too sure about this. From my understanding it should work, but I've never heard of it before and haven't tested it.

Force Mage:

• Fist of the Maker - (1.8 x base dmg - 0%armour); One of the handiest destealth tools due to its smaller radius and fast cooldown, this ability does require a decent base damage to work properly. Equipping good staves and pumping magic will help a lot. One issue with this spell is its tendency to one-shot companions.
• Telekinetic Burst - (base dmg; x20/x30); This is the bigger and better version of fist of the maker. It will reliably destealth enemies and can be used without any concerns about friendly fire.[/b]
• Pull of the Abyss - (base dmg; x30); The most reliable destealth ability (though an upgraded telekinetic burst may be comparable). The only issue that may its huge radius and cooldown. Usually I would try to save this for last - as a last desperate measure if all other destealthing attempts fail because unlike fist of the maker and telekinetic burst, this ability actually is useful outside destealthing.
• Gravitic Ring - (N/A); Probably doesn't count as 'destealthing' as such, but much like the pull of the abyss, this ability can be used to prevent assassins from doing anything if you really have nothing else to use. In this case, simply drop the ring over where the enemy stealthed (as soon as you like, sooner better). This means that the assassin will either be slowed to a halt or be so slowed that it will run out of stealth before the gravitic ring expires. This allows your ranged companions to have a free shot at the exposed enemy.
  Examples of how to time/do things can be found in Arelex's Tutorial Video and this thread.

Blood Mage:

• Haemorrhage - (4.5/6.75 x base dmg - 0%armour) I've knocked a rogue out of a flip but never destealthed anything. I think the stun property can be used in a similar way to paralyse (interrupting their stealth action) but this is a very unreliable method.

Warrior
Two handed:

• Scythe - (3/4.5 x base dmg; x2/x3); This works by positioning the stealthed enemy between your warrior and your target (as you can't target stealthed enemies).
• Whirlwind - (3/4 x base dmg; x2); Somewhat more easy to aim, whirlwind is moving over to the assassin and timing it right. Here is a good example of these 2h abilities.

Weapon and Shield:

• Scatter - (4/6 x base dmg; x4/x6); Pretty situational and pretty tough to use, this ability lets out a rather wide but short arc. It does lots of damage coupled with lots of force so if a stealthed enemy is next to another enemy, scatter will quite effectively destealth it. Assualt may also destealth enemies but it is a lot more dependent on chance/lucky positioning - e.g. using assault while blocking a staircase such that the assassin walks into it).

Warmonger:

• Tremor - (base dmg; x8); So far I haven't managed to get this to work, but supposedly it can so I'll figure out a way to implement it into a useful strategy.

Templar:

• Holy smite - 2.4/(4.8 vs spellcaster/fade creatures); x4; This should be reasonably effective at destealthing rage demons and templar hunters

Note: When referring to non-damaging abilities, by base dmg I mean that is probably what will be used in the calculations (as opposed to damage dealt). I remember reading a post which said something like that anyway.

Rogue
Abilities such as bursting arrow can destealth and rush (and maybe archer's lance) can destealth in a similar method to warriors. I don't really know any others..

Bombs

• Combustion grendades will also provide a handy way to destealth enemies.

Companions

• In addition to the spells and abilities they can use, companions have some unique destealthing abilities. Isabela's all hands on deck, fenris's spirit pulse, and merrill's ensnare should be able to destealth enemies

I still need to compile more of the different methods to deal with assassins and maybe get some demonstration videos. If there's anything I've missed/you think could help people tell me and I'll see about adding it in.  

p.s. I hate bbcoding. May it crawl into a bush somewhere and die.

Modifié par mr_afk, 24 mai 2011 - 12:38 .

[andraip]

How to kill Assassins or other pesky creatures? That's easy, you apply the one and only rule in the DA universe, kill them before they kill you. Nothing more, nothing less.

Modifié par andraip, 15 mai 2011 - 08:42 .

[mr_afk]

That is true, but you can usually kill them faster if you don't have to wait for them to pop up and stab you in the back. Before the concept of destealthing things is grasped, people tend to accept daggers in the back as a necessary component of fights. Once they realise that you can simply destealth them, the combat system (with assassins etc. becomes a lot less tedious).. 

well, I hope it helps someone anyway. otherwise that would have been a huge waste of time i could have spent sleeping  hahaa

Modifié par mr_afk, 15 mai 2011 - 08:17 .

[SuicidalBaby]

rogues post 1.02 will reach stealth at some point.

[ezrafetch]

Hoo-rah! Good work, and so quick too.

My preferred way of dealing with Assassins is Petrify + Archer's Lance. Brittle FTW. Pretty much anything Brittle + Archer's Lance/Mighty Blow is the easiest way to deal with assassins pre-stealth. I'd hesitate to use Glyph of Repulsion just because the radius is way too small these days, but if you get it right, it should/will de-stealth assassins.. It just doesn't go far enough.

Scythe will operate the same way Rush does, just with damage and a 63.58% chance of offing a companion. I bet you could get Tremor and/or Mighty Blow to work, but it'd be really finicky and be mostly luck. You may also be able to Silence/Cleanse assassins, but I've never done a Templar. I remember reading that in Sabre's #1 Guide to Vanguarding (or whatever it's called) guide/thread or something.

[tonnactus]

Whirlwind also works for warriors.

[tonnactus]

ezrafetch wrote...
 You may also be able to Silence/Cleanse assassins, but I've never done a Templar. I remember reading that in Sabre's #1 Guide to Vanguarding (or whatever it's called) guide/thread or something.

Cleanse also removes the sustainables of your mages as far as i know.

[mr_afk]

@ suicidalbaby - I'm not sure what you mean. uhh something to do with the patch?

@ezrafetch - Yep, that's one of my favs now too! (I used to have a bias against petrify but that's changed now). For boss assassins I usually follow it up with a shield bash + paralysing haemorrhage which definitely offs them.

@tonnactus - Thanks! I had forgotten about whirlwind. I even saw a vid with it demonstrated. 


Well I'll add in all that info tmr, keep it coming everybody!! - saves me having to research 
I'm going to sleep. haha

Modifié par mr_afk, 15 mai 2011 - 08:34 .

[andraip]

I'm sure this post will help a lot of people, atleast I heard a lot of people complaining about the op and cheating assassins.

For a Warrior, Assail (3x force for 15 secs) might be interresting, combining this with dmg boosting talents the normal attack of a 2h warrior should be enought to destealth a assassin if an enemy stands beside him.

And Gravitic Ring also has another interresting effect (only without FF), if the assassin backstab a target that stands somewhere (if not to far away from the middle) in the ring, you can run away when the assassin pops up behind you, and the assassin will miss.

Modifié par andraip, 15 mai 2011 - 08:43 .

[Catalol]

Nice work, I'm sure alot of new players will benefit from this, it seems that assassin mating season just ended by the time Hawk reaches Kirkwall. The info on force mechanics is great too.

Agreeing with what Andraip said, I think it would be good to mention actually killing them before they even attempt a stealth. I found it to be a very consistent strat at the higher levels on my rogue and warrior, if not killing them out right in the first move they usually flat on their arse for follow up cc.

Though I guess it doesn't really help for newer players as knowing where they're going to spawn and having overall good court vision makes this strat easier to pull off. Will also not be doing the same kind of burst in relation to health at the lower levels compared to +16 imo.

[tonnactus]

Catalol wrote...


Agreeing with what Andraip said, I think it would be good to mention actually killing them before they even attempt a stealth.

This rarely happen on higher difficulties,and there are some fights with more then one of them.

Modifié par tonnactus, 15 mai 2011 - 10:24 .

[rumination888]

If you can pop something out of stealth with FotM, then you can pop it out of stealth with a Fireball(without any +fire damage).
Fist of the Maker has the lowest amount of force in the mage's arsenal.
1.8(FoTM) vs. 2.7(Fireball) vs. 5.4(upgraded Fireball)

Modifié par rumination888, 15 mai 2011 - 11:08 .

[frustratemyself]

Nice post mr_afk, very informative for us semi-hopeless players.

[mr_afk]

Thanks everybody, I'll update it some more now.

@rumination- yep, I think you're right. I'll go edit the fireballs to say they are pretty viable for higher damage mages. I was thinking that how the fotm it isn't affected by armour would play a part but fireballs also aren't affected by armour so....blehh haha.

@Catalol - The reason why I'm not so sure about listing strategies to kill them is that there are just too many possibilities! If stealthing isn't a problem it becomes exactly the same as normal enemies and you can just auto-attack them to death if you really want.

But I suppose that destealthing for warriors and rogues (while definitely possible) is a little harder - and given the limited destealth-abilities available and the short cooldowns enemy assassins have, it may be beneficial for some examples to pulling off quick kills. Maybe even an early game strategy section will be useful as pre-CCC's it becomes even tougher. My main problem is that I haven't played a warrior or rogue in a while so my strategies will be mostly based on what I've read/theorised..

So post any suggestions on your favourite assassin killing methods!!

Modifié par mr_afk, 16 mai 2011 - 03:44 .

[AreleX]

good thread

spawn mabari when assassin/rage demon stealths and it will almost always be targeted

gravitic can burn an assassin or rage demon's stealth duration and immobilize them

2h can use whirlwind

rogues can use rush

all my stuff has been listed

you are still the worst player

edit: check this video, i do the mabari trick a few times when an assassin stealths

Modifié par AreleX, 16 mai 2011 - 04:24 .

[ezrafetch]

The most general thing I (and everyone here) would say for anti-assassin technology is: use an appropriate CCC.

i.e.
2H: Brittle into Mighty Blow, Brittle into Scythe, Disorient into Devour + Insatiable
S&S: Disorient into Assault, Disorient into Scatter, Disorient into Devour + Insatiable
DW: Brittle into Assassinate, Stagger into Explosive Strike
Archer: Brittle into Assassinate
Mage: set up Brittle, Disorient into Walking Bomb, Stagger into Hemorrhage.
Companions: Brittle into Archer's Lance (Varric, Sebastien), Brittle into Bursting Arrow (Varric, Sebastien) Brittle into Mighty Blow (Fenris, Carver), Disorient into Assault (Aveline), Disorient into Scatter (Aveline), Stagger into Explosive Strike (Isabela)

You have your obvious setup abilities, personal ranking of how easy they are to set up:

Brittle: Petrify + Dessicate, Winter's Grasp + Winter's Blast [+Elemental Mastery], Cone of Cold + Deep Freeze [+ Elemental Mastery]
Disorient: Fatiguing Fog + Overpowering Fog, Confusion + Chaos
Stagger: Shield Bash, Cleave + Claymore, Sunder, Devour + Voracious, Pommel Strike + Pommel Blow, Tremor + Aftershock (inadvisable for use)

My favorites:
Brittle: Petrify into Archer's Lance, Petrify into Mighty Blow, Petrify into Bursting Arrow, Winter's Grasp into Archer's Lance, Winter's Grasp into Mighty Blow, Winter's Grasp into Bursting Arrow, Cone of Cold into Archer's Lance, Cone of Cold into Mighty Blow, Cone of Cold into Bursting Arrow
Disorient: Fatiguing Fog into Assault
Stagger: Shield Bash into Explosive Strike, Shield Bash into Hemorrhage

All of the ones I can think of at the moment...I didn't list Scythe as a companion CCC exploit because you'll likely kill yourself in the process of pulling it off, which is undesirable.  Chain Lightning doesn't do enough to one-off assassins, so that's why I didn't mention it.

Other anti-assassin tech would be Walking Bomb, but I personally can't ever get it to work right, so I'm not going to discuss it.

Modifié par ezrafetch, 16 mai 2011 - 04:19 .

[mr_afk]

Heh, here's a walking bomb technique.
(well actually, it wasn't demonstrated that well in that vid. oh well - I'll be able to explain my version once I get to it. Think there's quite a few setups out there).

and thanks! all good points. I'll include it all when I get to the tactics section...still going through CC.

p.s.  nice vid Arelex! I'll add it to the OP for demonstrations etc.

Modifié par mr_afk, 16 mai 2011 - 04:38 .

[Jack-Nader]

mr_afk wrote...

as been dead is known to make it harder to stealth.

Heh

* You forgot Rock fist. 
Spirit bolt also has a nice disabling effect. 
Rush should also be listed as a CC ability.  Infact that is its primary function.

For rogue hawke, all you need is rush, assassinate and twin fangs.  I've not encountered any rogue boss that can survive it.  No other party members are required.  Step one is to rush your target.  It is a guaranteed knock down provided you have high base damage.  Taking the second tier range rush ability actually boosts the chance of knocking things down.  I'm not sure why this is because it is not in the description.  Step 2 is to assassinate.  Assassinate will usually outright kill every single rogue boss in the game provided you have speced your Hawke correctly.  Failing that, finnish with twin fangs.  Rush gives you enough time to assassinate + twin fangs anything that has been knocked down so you have ample time.  Most importantly, this method frees up your 3 other party member to handle the mobs.

Modifié par Jack-Nader, 16 mai 2011 - 11:37 .

[Catalol]

Cool, I get what you mean. I was trying to get at the positioning of the PC in order to see/outright deal with them quicker, but i guess it didn't quite come out that way hehe
The guide is coming along very nicely, good job

@Tonnactus: Rarely? I'm consistantly doing so on NM though I agree that a stealth is unavoidable in some cases, off the top of my head thinking the Brekker fight.

[tonnactus]

Catalol wrote...


@Tonnactus: Rarely? I'm consistantly doing so on NM though I agree that a stealth is unavoidable in some cases, off the top of my head thinking the Brekker fight.

Enemy assassin at 20-10 percent health->usually first:Healthpot(even if dont have one in your inventory for them to steal,they have their own) and then they just do their backflip move.

Modifié par tonnactus, 16 mai 2011 - 06:41 .

[tonnactus]

m14567 wrote...

I noticed that Jevan seems resistant to even pull of the abyss, although when he stealths he usually just lobs the holy hand grenade rather than backstabbing.

He also serve as a commander. Its the same with castillion.Sometimes they stealth,but then just swing their daggers around when coming out of it.
Also,even when alone they will stealth unlike most of the other assasins.

[tonnactus]

m14567 wrote...

I think the crow assassin after Zevran is the same too maybe, although Jevan's health bar is like about a quarter of the screen which maybe makes him more resistant.

By the way,would have been made far more sense to make jeven a unique boss that use shield attacks like scatter for example instead of just another rogue...

I cant remember any sword and shield enemy warrior in this game actually using any kind of shield attacks.Not even those in Night Lies. Lame somehow.When it comes too elite enemies,its either mages or dual weapon rogues in 80 percent of the cases.Origins even had the genlock forgemaster that did massive damage with a bow.(and could switch to two handed weapons)

[mr_afk]

Does anybody know if it's possible to destealth assassins with tremor?
or if it even works?

I'm trying it out at the moment, and not only does it not destealth assassins, it doesn't seem to knockback anyone... it is unupgraded but you'd think that x8 force would work as x6 for mindblast works.. unless mindblast only works once upgraded (x18)?

I'm also using a S&S, though I doubt it makes any difference unless it's bugged.

Modifié par mr_afk, 17 mai 2011 - 05:09 .