66 réponses à ce sujet

[MorseDenizen]

Isabela's all hands on deck followed by Reversed Grip in Maim mode generally does the trick for me, destealths, stuns and topples....

[mr_afk]

Cool, I'll add that in!

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Also, i've got assault/scatter to work though it's really unreliable/requires an enemy to be standing nearby. I might do some more testing on a fully upgraded tremor - as that could make destealthing a lot more simpler for warriors.

Here's a video of my S&S build. It demonstrates the scatter method of destealthing -  the assault clip isn't very exciting as the only reason why it worked was the enemy was stupid enough to walk up the stairs into it.

Modifié par mr_afk, 17 mai 2011 - 07:33 .

[mr_afk]

Awesome. I'll add it to the OP and will probably spec my warrior into that.

p.s. check out the new fancy CCC triangle I made!

[tonnactus]

m14567 wrote...

Cool pic, another thing warriors can use is stonewall/bulwark, whether it is worth wasting two talent points is probably a good question but it'll take backstab damage down to about 10-15.

If you take still damage,it wasnt right timed,because otherwise you would take zero damage(on the xbox i just activated stonewall like 1-2 seconds after they dissapear/their backstab did zero damage)

I guess spirit pulse and holy smite should work at least reliable against templar hunters and rage demons(fade creature/double damage)

At least i remember that this worked against templar hunters on hard.

[AreleX]

mr_afk wrote...

Awesome. I'll add it to the OP and will probably spec my warrior into that.

p.s. check out the new fancy CCC triangle I made!

Triforce of terrible! Nice pic, my dear el basura!

Modifié par AreleX, 17 mai 2011 - 10:30 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Eh if I want to deal with assassins I:
Warrior: Silence them and kill them.
Rogue: Assassinate
Mage: Crushing Prison

[mr_afk]

 @m14567 - Yep, I'll get into all the damage mitigation techniques soon. The most reliable from my experience is the dropping the dog and retreating, but things like stone wall and barrier will help if you really must get stabbed. I still think it's lame how their attacks ignore armour/elemental resistance. 

@tonnactus - Hmm I think you may be right. I didn't know righteous strike was aoe though - I really should try out templar for a change haha.

@Arelex - hahaha I had to google that. I appreciate the sentiment though 

@Giggles Silence stops them from stealthing right?

[AreleX]

Silence stops stealth, but, as with everything else, it can't interrupt it once it's started, so you have to use it really early for it to be guaranteed to work.

[Giggles_Manically]

Get the upgrade to cleanse.
AREA SILENCE!

I just hope I can un-stealth them with a good whirlwind many times.

[mr_afk]

Ah.. Okay, if that's established I don't need to test it out (phew).

What I might add in is the benefits of stun/force abilities available for warriors.
By a combination of shield bash, pommel strike, (+assault and cleave) you can keep enemies in an almost perpetual state of interruption such that they can't actually stealth. If you run out of abilities (I haven't got the upgrades yet which will help greatly with cooldowns) all you need to do is apply standard destealthing/damage mitigation techniques.

So basically, you don't even need silence - though it could make things easier with its 20s duration

Modifié par mr_afk, 18 mai 2011 - 02:21 .

[ezrafetch]

mr_afk wrote...
What I might add in is the benefits of stun/force abilities available for warriors.
By a combination of shield bash, pommel strike, (+assault and cleave) you can keep enemies in an almost perpetual state of interruption such that they can't actually stealth. If you run out of abilities (I haven't got the upgrades yet which will help greatly with cooldowns) all you need to do is apply standard destealthing/damage mitigation techniques.

I agree.  Been running a S&S and the Tranquility fight (which I somehow used to always have trouble with) was a total cakewalk.  Basically I stun-locked the Hunter when he showed up (Pommel Strike into Shield Bash into Assault into Scatter), but even though he made it out of that sequence with 1/3 health, it was easy enough anyways since the sheer killing power of S&S bulldozed the rest of them so quickly.  Though I'm not sure how the blighter made it out of a Glyph of Paralysis.  I set one on the ground, it triggered on an invisible/stealthed guy (i.e. the Hunter), but he still ended up backstabbing either me or Dog...it was really odd.

My thought is that for Warriors, the key for anti-assassins is not the de-stealthing process, but it's eliminating them pre-stealth or post-stealth before they re-stealth (for mages, it's easy to de-stealth.  Rogues probably have to operate the same way as Warriors, but their spike damage capabilities eliminates the need to stunlock assassins).  And yeah, Pommel Strike just as good as it was in DA:O.  With the upgrade, it may be better.  It's certainly worth the 2pts to get it and upgrade it.  I (and others) had severely underrated it before (until, as usual, IN1 proved us wrong), but now I think it's a great utility skill.

Modifié par ezrafetch, 18 mai 2011 - 06:26 .

[mr_afk]

I've always liked pommel strike and shield bash. I just didn't like warriors enough to bother to debate over warrior abilities etc (because I knew nothing about them). However, after seeing an elemental Aveline in action and getting the new dlc I've finally got into the whole warrior thing. I think it's the whole glass-cannon warrior thing I really like, as been able to dish out the most damage in the group is almost necessary for me to find it enjoyable (my hawkes are just such glory-seekers ahaha).

But yeah, the combination of scatter and assault is probably the highest damaging aoe attack - and when paired with clustered disoriented enemies it's basically a wide spread assassination. I've been recording a few fights from my new build and there's some pretty hilarious ones where all the bosses/enemies which I used to find hard to kill get killed in the first 10 seconds haha (this is without disorient as Varric is still too low levelled). E.g. that room with captain reiner.

Also, with a pure strength warrior (no need for con with dlc gear) and elemental weapons the amount of force from shield bash will reliably horror/nature almost any enemy. Using elemental weapons makes inflicting force effects is immeasurably better as instead of flying backwards out of reach they just get CC'd. I'm hoping that tremor works reasonably-well as waiting for assassins to stab my dog slows things down so much.

Might upload a second compilation later today once my camera batteries recharge and I can record a few more fights. My camera still seems to have shat itself quality-wise but i've got some audio for a change.


As for assassins...I've seen one backstab its way out of a gravitic ring.. My dog ran up to it and it warped around to the edge of the ring to stab it then escaped. So I assume it's just one of those things assassins do. :/

Modifié par mr_afk, 18 mai 2011 - 07:10 .

[andraip]

It seems to me that you only need to apply the stagger effect to the assassin to reliably destealth him, works well for me with Claymore & Sunder.

It might be a good thing to list the Assassins that have the Annihilate upgrade (ignores critical resistance immunity), atleast I don't know it (the assassins normally don't live long enought to tell me).

And finally, nice pic.

Modifié par andraip, 18 mai 2011 - 04:47 .

[mr_afk]

Hmm i think that if you're staggering them via claymore and sunder you would destealth them simply due to the force of your basic attacks and not so much the status effect.
In the case for a crit (sunder) and if you have destroyer, you would be doing a +100%dmg critical hit against an enemy dmg resistance decreased by 50%.
This means that you should be doing quite a lot of damage = lots of force despite the relatively small force multiplier of basic attacks.

The only problem trying to destealth with basic attacks is that firstly you'll probably need to get a few hits in before getting a stagger/crit/enough force to destealth, and targetting the stealthed enemy will be impossible unless there are other enemies nearby.
I suppose 2H weapons with the giants reach upgrade would find such a method much easier compared to S&S - and this method won't work for mages or rogues (single target dps).

In the event of a stealthed enemy near another enemy I think using abilities such as mighty blow/scythe/scatter/assault would be more reliable and quicker - and pulling off a destealth faster is important because at any moment they might decide to stab you.. 

I wasn't aware that there was such a thing as critical resistance? do you mean the armour/elemental resistance-ignoring properties of their criticals/backstabs? I thought all of them had that and that against assassin/rage demon attacks only dmg resistance works...just to be annoying like that. Though maybe it's only elites and higher, as the silent sisters etc. seem to do crap all damage.

But yeah, assassins don't really live long around me either. Very sad. haha

And i'm glad you liked it!

Modifié par mr_afk, 18 mai 2011 - 10:09 .

[andraip]

Well, Elite Assassins in NM also have lots of health, and I'm pretty sure that there wasn't any knockback animation, but I might be wrong, the assassin just pops up with the stagger symbol.

Mighty Blow/Scythe/Scatter/Assault also may kill a party member that stands nearby, and so you would do the job for the assassin , tbh, I just find it cool to have a possibility to destealth an assassin without the need to resort to a spell or talent.

I meant Immune to critical hits, some Assassins still score critical hits against this (like Bartrand), some others don't do it, if you don't receive a critical hit the backstab from the assassin only does about 1/3 damage (don't know the real numbers), as for the Silent Sisters, they don't have the Backstab/Assassinate talent, just the Stealth talent, when they pop off from stealth they just execute a normal attack.

[tonnactus]

andraip wrote...

It might be a good thing to list the Assassins that have the Annihilate upgrade (ignores critical resistance immunity), atleast I don't know it (the assassins normally don't live long enought to tell me).

And finally, nice pic.

Enemies in this game play by other rules then hawke and partymembers anyway. They dont have identical talents,because otherwise no one could tank if an enemy rogue really use assassinate. That would be a one hit kill regardless of your armor,damage resistance and health.

[tonnactus]

mr_afk wrote...

I wasn't aware that there was such a thing as critical resistance?

Safeguard: The warrior shrugs off the extra damage from critical hits.(sword and shields talents)
If this really doesnt work against backstabs(would be retarded,why take this talent then?,but so are most elemental immunities) its time to respec my warrior build...

The only problem trying to destealth with basic attacks is that
firstly you'll probably need to get a few hits in before getting a
stagger/crit/enough force to destealth, and targetting the stealthed
enemy will be impossible unless there are other enemies nearby.

Maybee upgraded assail could do this trick without giants reach.

Modifié par tonnactus, 18 mai 2011 - 06:29 .

[andraip]

tonnactus wrote...

Enemies in this game play by other rules then hawke and partymembers anyway. They dont have identical talents,because otherwise no one could tank if an enemy rogue really use assassinate. That would be a one hit kill regardless of your armor,damage resistance and health.

If you have 100% dmg resistance (upgraded barrier & upgraded stonewall) you would survive that.

However, I meant an Assassinate like talent, I know it isn't Assassinate.

Safeguard: The warrior shrugs off the extra damage from critical hits.(sword and shields talents) If this really doesnt work against backstabs(would be retarded,why take this talent then?,but so are most elemental immunities) its time to respec my warrior build...

There are also some rings that so the trick. FYI it works against the backstabs, but some assassins can ignore that (like the Annihilate upgrade), the only one I know is Bartrand. As I know normal assassins, rogues and that don't ignore the critical hit immunity (e.g. In the Brekker fight those 4-5 Coterie Rogues only did about 30 - 40 damage with their backstabs against Aveline with her Ring from the Item DLC (grants immunity agianst critical hits), and this was on NM).

Modifié par andraip, 18 mai 2011 - 07:14 .

[tonnactus]

andraip wrote...

If you have 100% dmg resistance (upgraded barrier & upgraded stonewall) you would survive that.

Not if some of them have some kind of vendetta talent,but ok.

Modifié par tonnactus, 18 mai 2011 - 08:46 .

[Siham]

Thanks a lot for this awesome thread, mr_afk !  

I found an interesting post made by Bioware about the next patch :

Luke Barrett wrote...

Assassins are being slightly nerfed in both their health and the damage threshold it takes to break their stealth in the next patch.

A quick note on assassins though - when they are doing the smoke bomb or backflip animation they are invulnerable (much like mage's teleport). Also, the backstab/stealth has a cooldown it's just incredibly short on Nightmare. My strategy is usually just load up on fire resist (or electric if you're in act 2) and just unleash hell with Rain of Fire (or Thunderstorm); once they pop out, petrify and focus fire... and if you have Black Emporium, the dog is the best assassin bait in the game (and it's immune to fire!)

Link : social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/300/index/7048387/31#7410806

Modifié par Siham, 21 mai 2011 - 10:51 .

[mr_afk]

No problems! Glad you liked it. It was pretty fun to write anyway.
Hm, I really should finish it up - really need to write up a summary/add some new tactics I've figured out with my S&S build.

But yeah, that's interesting..I actually like their high health - makes it more satisfying to smash their faces in!!
(it's my new aggressive hawke playthrough..it's rubbing off on me! :innocent:)

Well it's good they didn't reduce the damage they inflict, as it would significantly reduce the challenge of the game and render this guide pointless haha


@andraip & tonnactus - thanks for the info! I'll add that safeguard can greatly reduce the issue of backstabs for S&S warriors making Aveline/Hawke an even better damage sponge.
Hm.. I don't think I have enough spare points for my plan for my build so I probably won't get it myself...and I sort of enjoy backstabs tbh. Is one of the only ways my health goes down (and the only way I can thus benefit from blood/sacrificial frenzy).
It's actually quite a challenge to get injured when you have decent dmg resistance/armour and you kill most enemies in less than a second...and fireballing yourself everytime would somewhat suck. 

Modifié par mr_afk, 21 mai 2011 - 05:17 .

[ezrafetch]

Ring of No Wishes grants immunity to A. Crits and B. Stuns, so it becomes pretty much the #1 essential buy for every Warrior once they hit A3. It makes Safeguard and Perception useless. The thing that would have made Safeguard/Perception worthwhile was making sure an Assassin's Assassinate/backstab didn't critical. It makes operating with less health an easier proposition since you're without the threat of a crit'd backstab offing you.

[mr_afk]

Hmm. At no con (con=16 from +attributes) my warrior has 290 health (more than my companions), 17% dmg resistance and I don't get off'd by assassins and find it hard to get injured to any degree besides from backstabs. And I like getting injured as it allows you to see pretty awesome things (e.g. assaults and scatters ranging in the several thousands)

Maybe at higher levels when my gear becomes less powerful I'll have more issues, but i'm probably going to be using the etched ring and the puzzle ring of the black fox. And what's the fun of playing without the chance of getting off'd? haha

But thanks for the heads up: I'll add it to the guide alongside the info about the immunity to crit. I'll probably do it tmr as atm I'm too busy playing da2 when i should be sleeping 

Modifié par mr_afk, 21 mai 2011 - 08:36 .