179 réponses à ce sujet

[jpace335]

My fear lies in sacrificing some elements of the game for the sake of romances.

[seirhart]

I play bioware games for story, romance and game play; if me 3 doesn't expand on romances but give us other things we asked for I still would not buy it.

Bioware is also known for having romance options in all of there games

[mereck7980]

I don't understand what the OP is more concerned about, the content of Bioware's games or the mental health of a very large part of the ME fanbase? Romance options are well....optional. If you don't like them skip them.

As for BW catering to a VERY large part of the community, how would continuing the narrative options laid down in the first two games be catering to the fanbase? Its not like they will be adding LI plot lines into a ME game for the first time in the series. BW has been using romance to enhance the plot of their games since at least Baldur's Gate 2 (and possibly earlier but my memory isn't as good as it used to be) its not like this is a new thing they are doing here.

@jspace335 have you ever played a BW game besides ME?

Modifié par mereck7980, 16 mai 2011 - 03:11 .

[alienatedflea]

RaenImrahl wrote...

-Skorpious- wrote...

If the ME crew pulls a DA2, then my Shepard will fear suprise buttsecks more than the reapers. 

Pretty low-brow comment.  Let's keep the level of discourse, such as it is, above this, please.

Sir, I mean no disrespect but you have to agree with the bad job done in DA2 when it came to romances...making everyone bi so when you say no to someone they hate you for your sexual preference...the poster does have a point and especially having a well established character (After two games) all of the sudden comes out will not fair well to most people

[-Skorpious-]

I think many of us (myself included, hence my less than reputable comment earlier) are passionate about Mass Effect and fan-favorite characters such as Garrus. Whenever a favorite character is involved, many of us are frightened about changes made to that character; especially when they regard such huge and controversial topics such as a shift in sexuality.

For example: Some of my friends disregard Luke and Leia's final "scene" in A New Hope as non-canon. It is canon. Luke and Leia DID share a passionate kiss despite being brother and sister. There is no changing or ignoring such facts.

Why bring this up? If Garrus hits on Shepard (or even presents a male Shepard with the option to pursue a romance) their is no denying the fact that Garrus is a bisexual character. You can pretend that the conversation never took place, but it DID take place - the option DID present itself. The player, despite wanting to believe differently, will always be reminded of the fact that Garrus can potentially harbor feelings for their Shepard.

Many people dislike sudden core changes in characters. Using Garrus as an example again, it is a fact that he has never shown interest in male Shepard's in both ME games - why should he start? Why should his personality take such a drastic turn such as a change in sexual orientation?

As such, I believe people have the right to fear for their favorite characters "canon"' personality; even if they have no say in the final product.

Modifié par -Skorpious-, 16 mai 2011 - 03:17 .

[jpace335]

@mereck, I'm actually concerned about both (you would be concerned more for the latter if you have ever seen that Tali sweat thing from this forum).
You are just simply veering a bit off from my point. Romances can stay. They are plot supplements, and we all know BW uses them as such.
And as for your last question, I got into BW with KotOR 1 and 2. I have also played DA.

[MACharlie1]

-Skorpious- wrote...

For example: Some of my friends disregard Luke and Leia's final "scene" in A New Hope as non-canon. It is canon. Luke and Leia DID share a passionate kiss despite being brother and sister. There is no changing or ignoring such facts. 

Wait - wait. I know this is off topic but... Luke and Leia kissed in ANH? In a final scene? The only kiss those two shared was in TESB when Leia gets pissed off at Han near the beginning.  

And as for your last question, I got into BW with KotOR 1 and 2. I have also played DA.

KOTOR 2 was Obsidian. 

Modifié par MACharlie1, 16 mai 2011 - 03:19 .

[jpace335]

Modifié par jpace335, 16 mai 2011 - 03:21 .

[jpace335]

@MACharlie, thank you for correcting me. I derped a bit there.

[Mr. MannlyMan]

ReconTeam wrote...

The fact is that the whole romance thing has gotten out of control. Look at the first page of these boards. Count the # of topics related to romancing something. There are constantly people who want to romance somebody they currently can't so they whine and complain until they get their way. It's frustrating at best, especially when you consider the fact that Bioware could be adding real, meaningful, gameplay or story related content instead of pleasing special interest groups who want to sleep with an elcor, or want Kaidan to suddenly turn gay.

^ This. In so many ways.

Except I'm leaning more towards the eye-for-an-eye rule, in that giving us 12+ romances means inevitably shifting focus AWAY from content that would actually benefit the vast majority of gamers, just to add more options for those few who would take notice, isn't really the best design choice.

I hardly think we need 12 romances to please the majority of gamers; this is not real life. We're not looking for "The One", or somebody who we think we would actually be compatible with IRL; we just want some available romance options for our characters, not a ****ing buffet of bachelors and bachelorettes! The sad thing is that I think Bioware just feels obligated to fulfill all of these demands, when they should know better as a game developer... deeper dialogue options for a few romances is infinitely better than shallower dialogue options for a slew of romances.

Modifié par Mr. MannlyMan, 16 mai 2011 - 03:28 .

[jpace335]

@Mr. MannlyMan, yes that's exactly the point.

[RaenImrahl]

alienatedflea wrote...

Sir, I mean no disrespect but you have to agree with the bad job done in DA2 when it came to romances...making everyone bi so when you say no to someone they hate you for your sexual preference...the poster does have a point and especially having a well established character (After two games) all of the sudden comes out will not fair well to most people

I neither agree nor disagree with his assessment of DA2... *especially* in the Mass Effect forums.  I was not admonishing his sentiment, but rather the choice of words and phrases. Along those lines, I believe calling a group of forum users "crybabies" and using other derogatory terms to describe their discussion is equally inappropriate.

Moderators are given a lot of discretion in interpreting the forum's rules of conduct.  For my money, as long as the discussion is civil and does not aim to spam off-topic or bait others into a vitriolic response... I frankly don't care what people say.

[mereck7980]

jpace335 wrote...

@mereck, I'm actually concerned about both (you would be concerned more for the latter if you have ever seen that Tali sweat thing from this forum).
You are just simply veering a bit off from my point. Romances can stay. They are plot supplements, and we all know BW uses them as such.
And as for your last question, I got into BW with KotOR 1 and 2. I have also played DA.

I have felt the wrath of the Talimancers on more than a few occasions so trust me I have been concerned for their "grasp on reality", but at the end of the day they are just REALLY passionate fans.  

Bioware has staked their reputation as a development studio primarily on the story driven aspect of their games.  Any writer worth their salt will tell you that romance enhances drama.  Given the fact that ME3 will be the climax of an epic narrative (arguably the most epic story ever told in a video game franchise) the fanbase is waiting with baited breath to see a conclusion to all the narrative threads woven into the previous two installments. 

I personally think it would be terrible if the dev team didn't go all out and completely wow us with amazing (or heart wrenching) conclusions to the romance options in ME3.  I get the point you are trying to make, but given the amazing connection a lot of fans have with the characters in this universe why deny them the closure they so desprately want?

Modifié par mereck7980, 16 mai 2011 - 03:27 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

Mr. MannlyMan wrote...
^ This. In so many ways.

Except I'm leaning more towards the eye-for-an-eye rule, in that giving us 12+ romances means inevitably shifting focus AWAY from content that would actually benefit the vast majority of gamers, just to add more options for those few who would take notice.
I hardly think we need 12 romances to please the majority of gamers; this is not real life. We're not looking for "The One"; we just want some available romance options for our characters, not a ****ing buffet of bachelors and bachelorettes! The sad thing is that I think Bioware just feels obligated to fulfill all of these demands, when they should know better as a game developer... deeper dialogue options for a few romances is infinitely better than shallower dialogue options for a slew of romances.

I see your point. But even if many more romances are added what makes the preference of gay players more important than those who want Shiala as an LI, or a female turian, or Gianna Parisin, and so on? As it is now this reeks of nothing more than pandering to the"politically correct" at the cost of writing. I fully expect a DA2 "everybody is bisexual" load of horse manure.

[Blitzkrieg0811]

I agree with OP. I don't want to see ME3 become an overpriced dating sim

[jpace335]

@mereck, well phrased. I just want to know what your interpretation of "what the fans want" is.
What does everyone want? A satisfying conclusion that neatly ties off the tale of Shepard and the Reapers as well as his/her romance from ME1 and/or ME2. But what BW plans on doing should make you wary, seeing as you do care about this. It's beginning to look like the drama originally around romances will be diminished due a glut of options and possibly forced relationships. No one's yet mentioned this, but do you feel wowed or heart wrenched when you say "sorry, not interested" and are met with RENEGADE +5?
Be cautious with words like "what most fans want".

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Mr. MannlyMan wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

The fact is that the whole romance thing has gotten out of control. Look at the first page of these boards. Count the # of topics related to romancing something. There are constantly people who want to romance somebody they currently can't so they whine and complain until they get their way. It's frustrating at best, especially when you consider the fact that Bioware could be adding real, meaningful, gameplay or story related content instead of pleasing special interest groups who want to sleep with an elcor, or want Kaidan to suddenly turn gay.

^ This. In so many ways.

Except I'm leaning more towards the eye-for-an-eye rule, in that giving us 12+ romances means inevitably shifting focus AWAY from content that would actually benefit the vast majority of gamers, just to add more options for those few who would take notice.
I hardly think we need 12 romances to please the majority of gamers; this is not real life. We're not looking for "The One"; we just want some available romance options for our characters, not a ****ing buffet of bachelors and bachelorettes! The sad thing is that I think Bioware just feels obligated to fulfill all of these demands, when they should know better as a game developer... deeper dialogue options for a few romances is infinitely better than shallower dialogue options for a slew of romances.

I honestly doubt this is the case. Bioware has stated before that players who complete any romance are in the minority (I can't remember where I read this.)  They've also said (or strongly implied) that they're including more non-romance dialogues this time too.

Flipping a switch so that a romance is available for both genders isn't necessarily that hard, I mean modders can do it, however imperfectly. All it requires is a handfull of slight line rewrites, and an hour or two of extra voice actor work, if that. Not a huge amount of devtime or effort, really.

While I like the idea of strongly defined characters with cannonical preferences, I also think it's rather petty of me to say "but Jacob being straight FOR ME is so important that you can't have what you want." It sucks when the character you like best in a game is not interested in the gender you like to play. Imagine that your favorite Mass Effect love interest had never been interested in your Shepard. Wouldn't you want them to be? Like if Miranda had been a same-sex only relationship, I think there would be a lot of straight guys in here saying "Yes! Open Miranda up to dudes!" But maybe not.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 16 mai 2011 - 03:33 .

[jpace335]

If it's been established that people who complete romances are a minority, (and people who are very vocal about them are a minority in that group) then how does BW's decision make sense?

[mereck7980]

Mr. MannlyMan wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

The fact is that the whole romance thing has gotten out of control. Look at the first page of these boards. Count the # of topics related to romancing something. There are constantly people who want to romance somebody they currently can't so they whine and complain until they get their way. It's frustrating at best, especially when you consider the fact that Bioware could be adding real, meaningful, gameplay or story related content instead of pleasing special interest groups who want to sleep with an elcor, or want Kaidan to suddenly turn gay.

^ This. In so many ways.

Except I'm leaning more towards the eye-for-an-eye rule, in that giving us 12+ romances means inevitably shifting focus AWAY from content that would actually benefit the vast majority of gamers, just to add more options for those few who would take notice, isn't really the best design choice.

I hardly think we need 12 romances to please the majority of gamers; this is not real life. We're not looking for "The One", or somebody who we think we would actually be compatible with IRL; we just want some available romance options for our characters, not a ****ing buffet of bachelors and bachelorettes! The sad thing is that I think Bioware just feels obligated to fulfill all of these demands, when they should know better as a game developer... deeper dialogue options for a few romances is infinitely better than shallower dialogue options for a slew of romances.

I partially agree with what you are saying but I think you are missing something that many vocal members of this community think is vital.

The ME story is a very personal one for the player.  BW designed these games in such a way that the user gets to make meaningful desicions about most aspects of the narrative.  If you saw the possiblity of a romance that just wasn't available it might have made the narrative seem less like "your" story.  A lot of fans felt like they couldn 't completely embrace this type of story telling because their preferences were left on the cutting room floor.  

BW expanding the LI choices in ME3 may sound like pandering, and it might indeed mean that some other content ideas don't make the final version of the game, but opening up the choices will allow those players that didn't feel as invested in this franchsie the opportunity to create the narrative they have been clammering for since day one.  

I personally like the idea of having fewer, more robust, LI options.  But the fanbase has spoken.  

[Mr. MannlyMan]

ReconTeam wrote...

Mr. MannlyMan wrote...
^ This. In so many ways.

Except I'm leaning more towards the eye-for-an-eye rule, in that giving us 12+ romances means inevitably shifting focus AWAY from content that would actually benefit the vast majority of gamers, just to add more options for those few who would take notice.
I hardly think we need 12 romances to please the majority of gamers; this is not real life. We're not looking for "The One"; we just want some available romance options for our characters, not a ****ing buffet of bachelors and bachelorettes! The sad thing is that I think Bioware just feels obligated to fulfill all of these demands, when they should know better as a game developer... deeper dialogue options for a few romances is infinitely better than shallower dialogue options for a slew of romances.

I see your point. But even if many more romances are added what makes the preference of gay players more important than those who want Shiala as an LI, or a female turian, or Gianna Parisin, and so on? As it is now this reeks of nothing more than pandering to the"politically correct" at the cost of writing. I fully expect a DA2 "everybody is bisexual" load of horse manure.

Because Shiala is just another asari to bone?

A gay romance would be in and of itself a huge addition. Which romance do you think would garner more attention from the media:

"In Mass Effect, TWO of the romances are with asari!" 

or

"Mass Effect has a same-sex romance!"

[jpace335]

I hope I can join you all in discussing this issue again soon.

[Inquisitor Recon]

Mr. MannlyMan wrote...
Because Shiala is just another asari to bone?

A gay romance would be in and of itself a huge addition. Which romance do you think would garner more attention from the media:

"In Mass Effect, TWO of the romances are with asari!" 

or

"Mass Effect has a same-sex romance!"

Who cares about the media? I want a better game, not pointless media controversy. It is only a "huge addition" to the "politically correct" crowd and that minority of gay players who demand this sort of thing.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

jpace335 wrote...

If it's been established that people who complete romances are a minority, (and people who are very vocal about them are a minority in that group) then how does BW's decision make sense?

Well, because if it's a small change that takes two developers two days to do, then why should you care if it gets changed? Most people won't care, because most people don't do romances anyway. The people who care will be the people who care about romances.

A lot of development time goes into features only a minority of players like. How many players scan every planet in every solar system and read every planet description (I do). How many people read every single Codex entry (I try, but haven't been able to finish). How many players use Singularity? 

Here's an example of a huge investment in content where we know the majority of development time is focused on the minority of players. More players play soldier (65%) than all other classes combined. If you see a dev saying "We're improving infiltrators" why don't you argue "how does this make sense? investing resources in a class that only a vocal minority plays. Just leave infiltrators as they are, they are fine, and focus on the SOLDIERS, who are the majority." 

Any time Bioware makes any improvements to any class that isn't soldier, they are catering to a vocal minority. Remember that.

[mereck7980]

jpace335 wrote...

@mereck, well phrased. I just want to know what your interpretation of "what the fans want" is.
What does everyone want? A satisfying conclusion that neatly ties off the tale of Shepard and the Reapers as well as his/her romance from ME1 and/or ME2. But what BW plans on doing should make you wary, seeing as you do care about this. It's beginning to look like the drama originally around romances will be diminished due a glut of options and possibly forced relationships. No one's yet mentioned this, but do you feel wowed or heart wrenched when you say "sorry, not interested" and are met with RENEGADE +5?
Be cautious with words like "what most fans want".

I may be generalizing when I say "what the fans want".  Let me clarify that statement.  "What a large number of very vocal fans want" is probably a better way of saying that.  Like you originally stated, there have been a huge number of threads on topics like the lack of same sex LI choices and the lack of "ideal" LI options for both male and female Sheps.  

The fans that want more choices have been much louder, in my humble estimation, than the fans that are happy with what is already in game. 

Like I said previously, I like the available LI options and I don't want any new ones in ME3.  That is my personal opinion, but there are a lot of people that disagree with me.