241 réponses à ce sujet

[Sabriana]

Thanks, but no thanks. I don't want to ape other players, and I definitely won't go after what a youtube person tries to tell me. I play my way, and I learn my way. With other RPGs it was difficult, but it was fun. This time it wasn't. You call it stealth, I call it teleport. With those ninjas all around, and the AI misbehaving, I had no time to AOE all over the place, especially when I needed the mages to stay alert, and not to plunge head-first into melee.

I play single player RPGs because I have no desire to be "told" what to do by others, how to do it, and I especially don't want to be told "u r doin it rong!!!!111!!!" I play my way, at my pace, and I learn my way. If it doesn't work the first time around, I keep on trying. This is the first RPG where none of the antagonists and the NPC AI made sense. If they did for you, congrats.

[Skilled Seeker]

Filament wrote...

The vast majority of games I've played, I've not voiced my opinion on them in a single way that can be measured by the rest of the world except by my purchase. WRPGs tend to be an exception, I do come to forums to talk about them. But even then, that's all I've done. No metacritic ratings or anything else. For most gamers, I imagine they don't post to forums or give metacritic scores for ANY games they play. You can take the general tone on the forums and the metacritic userscore as maybe an indicator of feelings about DA2 (perhaps it is divisive, yes), but to take these as a literal representation of all gamers' opinion on the game is foolish.

Exactly. Seems some people here don't like logic when it collides with the agenda they're pushing.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Firky wrote...

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Not the point I was trying to make, Firky. In an interview, Mr. Laidlaw was asked if the majority of people disliked DA2 was because it was "dumbed down". Mr. Laidlaw's response was "I suggest they play on Hard". You serious?!?!?

Dunno, sorry. You lost me. I'm not sure how "dumbed down" equals a majority of Origins fans not liking DAII.

From what I've heard, fans who read this interview were upset by Laidlaw's reply because it implied  combat (the ONLY thing that Hard/Normal/Whatever mode changes) was the only thing people who disliked DA2 were complaining about.

Most people who complain about the game being "dumbed down" are referring several elements DA2 did not carry on from DA:O, apparently so as not to frighten away the Action gamers it was trying to attract, and the continued focus on combat alone left not a few people feeling cold.

(Disclaimer: I do not remember reading the interview personally. If the focus/context was combat, then Laidlaw's comment was perfectly valid IMO.)

Edit: Oh, and to keep on topic I have started the game with the intention of a full playthrough three times (once for each class) and finished twice (warrior and mage. Rogue stopped once reaching Kirkwall). I've decided to wait until the game's fully patched until playing again. Normal mode every time--not a combat junkie here.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 16 mai 2011 - 10:12 .

[Skilled Seeker]

Sabriana wrote...

Thanks, but no thanks. I don't want to ape other players, and I definitely won't go after what a youtube person tries to tell me. I play my way, and I learn my way. With other RPGs it was difficult, but it was fun. This time it wasn't. You call it stealth, I call it teleport. With those ninjas all around, and the AI misbehaving, I had no time to AOE all over the place, especially when I needed the mages to stay alert, and not to plunge head-first into melee.

I play single player RPGs because I have no desire to be "told" what to do by others, how to do it, and I especially don't want to be told "u r doin it rong!!!!111!!!" I play my way, at my pace, and I learn my way. If it doesn't work the first time around, I keep on trying. This is the first RPG where none of the antagonists and the NPC AI made sense. If they did for you, congrats.

DA2 on Nightmare is harder than DAO on Nightmare. Perhaps tone the difficulty down?

I'm not telling you how to play, but if your playstyle fails then it might be a good idea to change it if you want to do well. The guy I linked has videos in a lot of playstyles and succeeds using all of them.

Assassins don't teleport because they are actually there. Using cone of cold will reveal them for example.

He also has threads in the gameplay section dealing with advanced tactics to prevent your companions from doing things you don't want them to. Hence how he is able to play just controlling Hawke, obviously he manages to set the right tactics up to keep the companions in check.

It's a learning experience, if you are determined to play on Nightmare, then take some of your advice and keep trying. There is nothing wrong or noobish with getting help from more experienced players or looking up immunity tables to understand what works and what doesn't.

The fact is DA2 is beatable with a wide range of playstyles, on Nightmare, controlling only Hawke with no pausing and no companions down, and without using any exploits. This suggests to me that Nightmare is simply hard but not broken otherwise this wouldn't be possible. And when you are dominating Nightmare like this, it is most certainly fun and satisfying!

Modifié par Skilled Seeker, 16 mai 2011 - 10:07 .

[Sabriana]

@ Shadow of Light Dragon

Q: What would you say to the PC gamer who feels like Dragon Age II was "dumbed down" compared to Origins?

ML: I would suggest that they play on Hard, frankly. Origins on normal delivered a pretty painful experience on the PC if you were new to RPGs, and I firmly believe that it turned people off. There's a very clear "skill gap" between someone new to Dragon Age II and a returning Origins player, and I think it's very easy to forget how steep that learning curve could be once you've overcome it.As such, we've made the early game quests and encounters more forgiving, especially on normal, to help someone just getting their feet under them acclimate. Hard, however, presents a solid, and consistent challenge to veterans, and one where I think teamwork, pause-and-play, and smart thinking are all quite important.

Found it at:

www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/dragon-age-2/show_msgs.php


Edited to add:

I am hardly a noob at RPGs or combat in them. I always play on the hardest setting first, in all the many RPGs I have played. CoC did not reveal most teleporters, and my PC was often far too busy doing damage control, and by the time the mages were ready, it was too late. Please don't patronize me.

Modifié par Sabriana, 16 mai 2011 - 10:09 .

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

Yes, I agree with Dragon there as well. It was offensive that all the reasons people voiced for disliking DA 2 were hijacked and then simplified (ironicly enough) into the Laidlaw interview to just be a question of combat difficulty. You get two ninja cookies, which can be exchanged for two free ninja rogue teleportations in DA 2.  +

[Firky]

@SoL Oh, right. I guess I associate the term "dumbed down" with combat. I tend to think of RPG elements, like inventory etc, as "simplified", UI as "streamlined" etc.

Personally, I think combat is very hard on hard and NM, from battling with it and learning its ins and outs, but I can understand why someone would want to enjoy the game for different reasons on lower difficulties.

[Firky]

OK, well, from that response, I'm guessing that he was answering the question based on combat. If the interviewer actually meant something else, they could have clarified, or that may be a shortened version of his entire answer. (That's normal to do in interviews.)

@ Alistairlover. Well, you did say that you had done a first playthru on NM, and I assumed you were, thus, commenting on combat too.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

And I think that may suggest a fundamental outlook of Laidlaw and how he's designed Dragon Age 2.

He believes the primary gameplay focus should be on combat. As opposed to looking at combat as a tool to be used to promote roleplaying and advancing the narrative.

He sees an RPG as combat+story.

I don't see how the combat+story = RPG concept can be considered an evolution of the genre. That's the very barebones of what an RPG was a good 20-30 years ago. If anything, it's an utter devolution.

Funny, really. Well... it would be. Except that he may lead the next Dragon Age game with this vision. So, not funny at all.

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

Sabriana wrote...

@ Shadow of Light Dragon

Q: What would you say to the PC gamer who feels like Dragon Age II was "dumbed down" compared to Origins?

ML: I would suggest that they play on Hard, frankly. Origins on normal delivered a pretty painful experience on the PC if you were new to RPGs, and I firmly believe that it turned people off. There's a very clear "skill gap" between someone new to Dragon Age II and a returning Origins player, and I think it's very easy to forget how steep that learning curve could be once you've overcome it.As such, we've made the early game quests and encounters more forgiving, especially on normal, to help someone just getting their feet under them acclimate. Hard, however, presents a solid, and consistent challenge to veterans, and one where I think teamwork, pause-and-play, and smart thinking are all quite important.

Found it at:

www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/dragon-age-2/show_msgs.php

Q: Alot of people were disappointed, expecting oranges instead of apples.

L: I like apples alot, they grow on trees. Birds nest in trees, you like birds don't you? When I was young I enjoyed apple pie. If people are disappointed without their oranges they should just consider apples and apple pie. Or perhaps an apple struddle. Stop thinking of oranges, just think of the apples, yum, apples...

[Skilled Seeker]

You guys do know good old Mike was the lead designer on DAO too? It wasn't that Brent Knowles fellow. So obviously Mike is capable of making both kinds of games.

Modifié par Skilled Seeker, 16 mai 2011 - 10:15 .

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

You guys do know good old MIke was the lead designer on DAO too? It wasn't that Brent Knowles fellow. So obviously Mike is capable of making both kinds of games.

Lol. Laidlaw was Lead for about 6-8 months on Dragon Age: Origins, right at the end of the project. The PC game was already finished by the time he came along.

Knowles was Lead for about 4-5 years during engine design and the majority of development.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

@Sabriana: Thanks for that!

@Firky: After looking at the interview myself, I can only agree with you. Interviewer could have clarified, and a few of the preceding questions were combat-related. That said, Laidlaw's comment looks fine to me.

Context is a wonderful thing

(PS: I found NM in DA2 pretty easy--barely had to touch tactics. I was playing a 2H warrior, and usually teamed up with Aveline (tank)/Anders (heal), Fenris and Varric depending on what I was up against. Hardest fight in the whole damn game for me was the first dragon at the Bone Pit!)

[Skilled Seeker]

Sabriana wrote...
I am hardly a noob at RPGs or combat in them. I always play on the hardest setting first, in all the many RPGs I have played. CoC did not reveal most teleporters, and my PC was often far too busy doing damage control, and by the time the mages were ready, it was too late. Please don't patronize me.

I didn't call you a noob. I explicitly said you weren't. It sounds like you are angry that you couldn't handle Nightmare on your first go and blame it on the game mechanics. Just take the pride hit and tone it down or learn about how it works like I did. Fact is, DA2 isn't other RPGs and doesn't have to conform to the difficulty standards set by them. It's much harder (and a lot of people including myself were asking for this after the joke difficulty of Origins). All the problems you are stating are explained in the videos on the channel I linked. If you refuse to learn, suit yourself, but having learned I can tell you that there is nothing broken and it certainly is doable. Of course it takes a large degree of skill and micromanagement which not everyone possesses. Hence the reason lower difficulty levels exist.

I do not mean to offend you in the slightest and I am sorry if you take offense to what I am saying.

[Skilled Seeker]

mrcrusty wrote...

Skilled Seeker wrote...

You guys do know good old MIke was the lead designer on DAO too? It wasn't that Brent Knowles fellow. So obviously Mike is capable of making both kinds of games.

Lol. Laidlaw was Lead for about 6-8 months on Dragon Age: Origins, right at the end of the project. The PC game was already finished by the time he came along.

Knowles was Lead for about 4-5 years during engine design and the majority of development.

Ah I see, my mistake. Still Laidlaw was partly the lead on Origins and would certainly have been the lead on Awakening and the DLC. Also if Brent left way before development on ][ started, then why do people state he left because of ][?

[Firky]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
(PS: I found NM in DA2 pretty easy--barely had to touch tactics. I was playing a 2H warrior, and usually teamed up with Aveline (tank)/Anders (heal), Fenris and Varric depending on what I was up against. Hardest fight in the whole damn game for me was the first dragon at the Bone Pit!)

There you go. Clearly my play style needed a shake up. (I'm still just going through quite slowly, due to being horrendously overcommitted, but I picked up quite well at lvl 9.) Strangely, I found the Bone Pit dragon (one opponent) much easier than the large groups.

PS. Given that this thread is supposed to be about playthurs, how many did you do before you tried NM? Part of my problem was lack of familiarisation with build. 

Modifié par Firky, 16 mai 2011 - 10:28 .

[Skilled Seeker]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

mrcrusty wrote...

And I think that may suggest a fundamental outlook of Laidlaw and how he's designed Dragon Age 2.

He believes the primary gameplay focus should be on combat. As opposed to looking at combat as a tool to be used to promote roleplaying and advancing the narrative.

He sees an RPG as combat+story.

I don't see how the combat+story = RPG concept can be considered an evolution of the genre. That's the very  at all.barebones of what an RPG was a good 20-30 years ago. If anything, it's an utter devolution.

Funny, really. Well... it would be. Except that he may lead the next Dragon Age game with this vision. So, not funny

Exactly. I'm not looking for fast-paced combat mechanics(I would play GOW, DMC etc, etc if I was), or a story that railroads me(Act 3), or a PC that isn't my PC(I projected my own personality and voice onto The Warden, Bhaalspawn and Revan, while Hawke isn't MY character, but BioWare's).

But you do not speak for all of us and you must understand this. I like fast paced combat and voiced PC. Is my opinion inferior to yours? Who should Bioware listen to?

Modifié par Skilled Seeker, 16 mai 2011 - 10:27 .

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

mrcrusty wrote...

Skilled Seeker wrote...

You guys do know good old MIke was the lead designer on DAO too? It wasn't that Brent Knowles fellow. So obviously Mike is capable of making both kinds of games.

Lol. Laidlaw was Lead for about 6-8 months on Dragon Age: Origins, right at the end of the project. The PC game was already finished by the time he came along.

Knowles was Lead for about 4-5 years during engine design and the majority of development.

Ah I see, my mistake. Still Laidlaw was partly the lead on Origins and would certainly have been the lead on Awakening and the DLC. Also if Brent left way before development on ][ started, then why do people state he left because of ][?

Because he did leave over Dragon Age 2... apparently. He has a blog where he sort of explains it.

http://blog.brentkno...08-summer-2009/

We were nearing the end of active work on design content for Dragon Age… there was still a lot more bug fixing/polishing/ and fill-content generation ahead but the core plot/writing and level design was finished. My work was rapidly shifting into that of reviewing what the team had put together. Discussion on Dragon Age 2 began around this time and looking ahead I knew that I wasn’t going to be satisfied with what Dragon Age 2 would be. Party control/tactical combat are huge factors in my enjoyment of a role-playing game as is adopting the role of the hero (i.e., customizing my character).

I was fairly certain Dragon Age would transition towards more of a Mass Effect experience, which while enjoyable is not the type of role-playing game I play. Could I be the lead designer on such a  title? Certainly… though if I were going to work on a game adopting a set-in-stone protagonist I’d rather work on something lighter, like a  shooter.

Through a series of circumstances it was decided that with my not wanting to participate on Dragon Age 2 it was time to transition in a new lead to finish the Dragon Age console versions and ramp up for Dragon Age 2.

Skilled Seeker wrote...
But you do not speak for all of us and you must understand this. I like fast paced combat and voiced PC. Is my opinion inferior to yours? Who should Bioware listen to?

Voiced PC, if not chosen by the player, is a removal of RPG elements (character customisation). Which opinion is more "correct" is up to Bioware to decide and both sides do have their merits, but it is fact that with a voiced PC without player input, it is less of an RPG.

... man, this forum has plenty of issues with copy pasting and updating posts.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 16 mai 2011 - 10:32 .