238 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Siona wrote...

-Skorpious- wrote...

I'm not against homosexual characters or romances in games, but I am against relationships that break previously defined characteristics of said characters.

Garrus mentions his "sparring" match with a female turian. Thane was madly in love with his wife. Jacob seems truly hurt that Miranda doesn't feel any connection with him. I feel it would go against characteristics of said characters if this was reversed in ME3; especially considering that they didn't open up to Shepard a mere few months ago, but suddenly decide that an imminent reaper invasion is the time to do so.

Except this proves nothing. I'm a bisexual player; I talk about my male ex to others, does this mean if I don't mention my female exes in the same breath, I'm straight?

Rather than assume someone is straight until proven gay, I prefer the system of waiting until a person specifically says 'hey, I like ___'. Regardless of what they may have said in the past, this does not leave out the option of being interested in men or women or hanar or whatever until a character specifically says 'no, that's not my thing'.

This sums it up best.

I don't have a whole lot of personal investment in this; I have Liara, and in all likelihood, she's enough for me. But she isn't enough for some people. And as I lose nothing from this alteration, and many others will gain from it... I'll support it if it happens. I have faith in Bioware.
I also liked the DA2 solution. If wholly gay romances can't be made due to a lack of resources, this is the next best thing.

[jlb524]

bisexuality =/= homosexuality

This isn't clear for some.

[N7Armada]

I think what he is saying more is that back when they did character development for ME1 it's a safe bet they never saw Garrus as a homosexual or bi. And to change that now just to satisfy a general audience cheapens the story. I think that is what the op was getting at. Yes you control the universe but through Shepards actions not everyone else's. What would be hilarious is professing your love for Garrus only to gave him tell you he is not gay.

[aksoileau]

I was surprised they caved in on this issue. But whatever I guess.

[JetsoverEverything]

you know what maybe they all realized that since there is probably no hope for survival they decided to experiment with another gender

seriously though Casey did say there will be new squaddies so maybe they will be the Bi/****** ones
idk my mind is all over right now.

[Fuzrum77]

Kazanth wrote...

Fuzrum77 wrote...

This is absurd. I agree with the OP completely. No offense to the gay folks out there or those that like same sex relationships in their games. But this makes NO sense. Nowhere in the first 2/3 of the Mass Effect "saga" has male Shepard shown -any- inclination toward homosexuality.

Why does a character have to show that they're homosexual/bisexual? By that logic my Shepard can't be straight either because he's shown no inclination towards heterosexuality either. See how silly that sounds?

Actually, yes I do. Point taken. But my other point still stands as to the established squadmates. Just please don't have them pulling an Anders from Dragon Age, and I'm okay with it.

[Siona]

Alpha-Centuri wrote...

Siona wrote...

Except this proves nothing. I'm a bisexual player; I talk about my male ex to others, does this mean if I don't mention my female exes in the same breath, I'm straight?

No, and what I think what you are forgetting about is perception. If you only talk about your male ex, and never your female ex, you shouldn't be shocked that people think you are straight. Early in the thread, someone (paraphrasing here) said that it shouldn't come as a shock, and that its your fault for thinking that. As rational human beings, we use the evidence around us and make judgements. It might not be the correct choice, but it is what we do to function as humans

Walks like a duck, talks like a duck... people are going to think its a duck.

You talk about your male ex 24/7 without once mentioning or insinuating having a female ex, people are going to think you are straight.

Theres been no evidence at all that the current squad characters are bi (save for Jack and Tali *LOTSB*).


[Edit] Note: Im not saying that its not possible that they could be gay. It would just be a surprise and come out of the nowhere. Also, I'm not saying that there shouldn't be S/S. But they should establish S/S characters.

Except you're missing the point; yes, if I only talked about a male ex for one conversation then, later on, mentioned a female one, people might be surprised and their believed perceptions would be changed. But it does not change the base fact that I *am* bi, regardless of what I choose to tell/not tell people. The same can work for characters. Our perception of them is not necessarily the truth of it, even if it's all we have to work off of.

[MACharlie1]

Let's say Kaidan was in convo with Male Shepard. They're talking and suddenly Kaidan mentions that he had a boyfriend once. Would it be accectable if Shepard can give a "Wait. You had a boyfriend? I had no idea you were attracted to that sort of thing." And Kaidan would reply in a "Well...yeah. Not big deal. Whatever." And then continue with his story and then leads into Shep "I should go" or some flirty response which would tick the romance. 

Basically what I'm trying to ask is, if it was addressed in one line, would it be a character derailment? Kaidan never expressed any interest before nor did he express any adversion. And like what is being said, Shepard (and players) would assume that he's straight and Shepard is reacting realistically  

[Inquisitor Recon]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
It is the same situation.  As far as I can tell Gianna "suddenly decided" she was heterosexual.  The other end being that she was always heterosexual and her relationships progressed differently over time and circumstance.

How crazy is that?  A relationship developing differently over time and circumstance, those circumstances including gender, place in life, situation, etc?  It boggles the mind that a character can, you know, develop.

No, no, you're right.  It be crazy that Garrus might slowly develop a crush on a dude.  Totally crazy.  Or that maybe they were always bi and they pursue relationships differenltly with the other gender.  Also totally crazy.

Oh, and, just so you're aware, bisexuals and homosexuals can reproduce.  Rather easily, actually, even in this day and age.

In all statistical likelihood she probably was straight, and it isn't even like she decided to sleep with Shepard right there and then.

A relationship developing like that is far different from a bunch of people suddently deciding they're gay for Shepard entirely out of the blue. Yes it is totally crazy in how incredibly unlikely it is. It is on the same level as those Tali fanatics who want a hybrid child. Shamless pandering at the cost of good writing.

Just so I'm aware? You wrongly presume I care about your attempts to raise "awareness."

[WizenSlinky0]

N7Armada wrote...

I think what he is saying more is that back when they did character development for ME1 it's a safe bet they never saw Garrus as a homosexual or bi. And to change that now just to satisfy a general audience cheapens the story. I think that is what the op was getting at. Yes you control the universe but through Shepards actions not everyone else's. What would be hilarious is professing your love for Garrus only to gave him tell you he is not gay.

Would it be hilarious if you went to have a hetero relationship and they told you they only do same-sex? Just curious.

Dis-continuity of character is a valid concern. However, the point is to shape your own unique "Shepard" story. Why is it in an issue if one player flags their Shepard as gay (by flirting) which in turn flags another character as such?

You would have to flirt to begin with just to even SEE that.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

One thing I've learned on this forum recently is that a lot of you people put an insane amount of importance on a person's sexuality in defining their personality.

It's part funny and part sad. Everyone tries to hide behind the "Oh, I only object from a storytelling POV." but... really? There are so many other things you should be complaining about if storytelling is your primary concern. Ye doth protest too much.

[Raiders Fan 223]

jlb524 wrote...

bisexuality =/= homosexuality

This isn't clear for some.

Yes, I understand that.  I think you can agree, however, that in this instance they are more or less one in the same.

N7Armada wrote...

I think what he is saying more is that back when they did character development for ME1 it's a safe bet they never saw Garrus as a homosexual or bi. And to change that now just to satisfy a general audience cheapens the story. I think that is what the op was getting at. Yes you control the universe but through Shepards actions not everyone else's. What would be hilarious is professing your love for Garrus only to gave him tell you he is not gay.

Yes. My big argument is that there has been little to no no hint that they are bi. People who believe they are or want them to be may point to indeterminable evidence. However, there have been hetero relationships, which points to the fact that they are, in fact, heterosexual.

[Inquisitor Recon]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

One thing I've learned on this forum recently is that a lot of you people put an insane amount of importance on a person's sexuality in defining their personality.

It's part funny and part sad. Everyone tries to hide behind the "Oh, I only object from a storytelling POV." but... really? There are so many other things you should be complaining about if storytelling is your primary concern. Ye doth protest too much.

I suppose where most of us come from people don't change their sexuality at the flip of a switch. To put it kindly, your promotion of this effort to make everybody bisexual is on par with some of the most absurd Talimancer demands.

[Art3m]

NOOOO!!!111 We've lost maleShep...gotta evade interactions with new char then XD

[Mystranna Kelteel]

ReconTeam wrote...
In all statistical likelihood she probably was straight, and it isn't even like she decided to sleep with Shepard right there and then.
A relationship developing like that is far different from a bunch of people suddently deciding they're gay for Shepard entirely out of the blue. Yes it is totally crazy in how incredibly unlikely it is. It is on the same level as those Tali fanatics who want a hybrid child. Shamless pandering at the cost of good writing.
Just so I'm aware? You wrongly presume I care about your attempts to raise "awareness."

I don't presume you care.  If you cared about being aware I'm sure you would be more aware than you seem to be.
And, christ, what is with you people and your "suddenly deciding to change sexuality" crap?  Are you really assuming that much that this won't be handled in the writing? (Not that I think it needs to be, but y'all are kinda scary with your insistence that this is some kind of apocalypse.)
It baffles me, and rather amuses me, how you're all crying about how lazy this is from a writing perspective when you have absolutely ZERO information about what said writing even is.

Also, don't be so persistent about telling me what is or is not "statistically likely".  That's pretty much a BS argument in a sci-fi videogame full of similar, and much worse, story-telling faults then the optional sexuality of half a dozen (max) people.

[Fuzrum77]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

One thing I've learned on this forum recently is that a lot of you people put an insane amount of importance on a person's sexuality in defining their personality.

It's part funny and part sad. Everyone tries to hide behind the "Oh, I only object from a storytelling POV." but... really? There are so many other things you should be complaining about if storytelling is your primary concern. Ye doth protest too much.

While what you're saying may be true, everyone in this thread is talking about it...because it happens to be the topic of the thread. And the romance option (gay or not) with Anders in DA2 ruined that character. But that was just one issue I had with DA 2. I've got a bucket-full of problems with that game. I just don't want them to ruin some wonderful characters in the ME series like they did in the DA series.

[Alpha-Centuri]

Siona wrote...

Alpha-Centuri wrote...

Siona wrote...

Except this proves nothing. I'm a bisexual player; I talk about my male ex to others, does this mean if I don't mention my female exes in the same breath, I'm straight?

No, and what I think what you are forgetting about is perception. If you only talk about your male ex, and never your female ex, you shouldn't be shocked that people think you are straight. Early in the thread, someone (paraphrasing here) said that it shouldn't come as a shock, and that its your fault for thinking that. As rational human beings, we use the evidence around us and make judgements. It might not be the correct choice, but it is what we do to function as humans

Walks like a duck, talks like a duck... people are going to think its a duck.

You talk about your male ex 24/7 without once mentioning or insinuating having a female ex, people are going to think you are straight.

Theres been no evidence at all that the current squad characters are bi (save for Jack and Tali *LOTSB*).


[Edit] Note: Im not saying that its not possible that they could be gay. It would just be a surprise and come out of the nowhere. Also, I'm not saying that there shouldn't be S/S. But they should establish S/S characters.

Except you're missing the point; yes, if I only talked about a male ex for one conversation then, later on, mentioned a female one, people might be surprised and their believed perceptions would be changed. But it does not change the base fact that I *am* bi, regardless of what I choose to tell/not tell people. The same can work for characters. Our perception of them is not necessarily the truth of it, even if it's all we have to work off of.

I agree with you. My/Other people's perception does not change the fact that you *are* gay. That can never be in question, because its your decision. I was objecting to the argument that it wouldn't be out of character.

If someone acts one way, and does something else, its out of character.

Tiger Woods cheating on his wife with 50 women is out of character (his character was family man devoted husband).

Garrus could be gay. But it should come as a shock, because he never mentioned it.

[RiotLaFontaine]

-Skorpious- wrote...

SilentNukee wrote...

People don't seem to understand...
There are probably only going to be a small variation of "bi" squadmates, by that, I'm picturing Kaidan/Ashley, Liara, Tali and Garrus.
Hudson specifically said it will be "flagged" by conversation. Don't want to be involved in gay conversations? Then, don't choose the flirty options when communicating. You won't even know it even existed. It's not going to be forced onto you, unless you provoke the topic. The end.

*my post from another thread*

I think many of us (myself included) are passionate about Mass Effect and fan-favorite characters such as Garrus. Whenever a favorite character is involved, many of us are frightened about changes made to that character; especially when they regard such huge and controversial topics such as a shift in sexuality. 

For example: Some of my friends disregard Luke and Leia's final "scene" in A New Hope as non-canon. It is canon. Luke and Leia DID share a passionate kiss despite being brother and sister. There is no changing or ignoring such facts.

Why bring this up? If Garrus hits on Shepard (or even presents a male Shepard with the option to pursue a romance) their is no denying the fact that Garrus is a bisexual character. You can pretend that the conversation never took place, but it DID take place - the option DID present itself. The player, despite wanting to believe differently, will always be reminded of the fact that Garrus can potentially harbor feelings for their Shepard. 

Many people dislike sudden core changes in characters. Using Garrus as an example again, it is a fact that he has never shown interest in male Shepard's in both ME games - why should he start? Why should his personality take such a drastic turn such as a change in sexual orientation?

As such, I believe people have the right to voice their fears over their favorite characters "canon"' personalities; even if they have no say in the final product.

Although Garrus DOES have many lines in ME1 and ME2 that are "bi-friendly" - one can even look at the mentor/apprentice relationship he has with Shepard in ME1.  It would be a natural development of their friendship, especially in a time of war, and some of us were examining this very possibility in the months prior to ME2's launch (and there was ample enough material and suggestions even at that time).  It wouldn't be OOC or unnatural for him to be bisexual since the seeds are already in place.  It's not something that's an instantaneous revelation, but something that needs to develop over time as all relationships do, just as it occurred for femShep in ME2 - they had to build up to it over the span of two games; who's to say it can't take three games for Garrus and maleShep to consider and develop the possibility of romance between them?

So it's not necessarily out-of-character and neither does Garrus say he isn't bi.  I'd also like to point out that even though Garrus is able to have a relationship with femShep in ME2, nowhere in ME1 does he indicate his sexual orientation or his interest in Shepard or his ability to entertain an interspecies relationship.

So . . . . I don't see how it would be a drastic change, because it certainly would not be one.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

ReconTeam wrote...
I suppose where most of us come from people don't change their sexuality at the flip of a switch. To put it kindly, your promotion of this effort to make everybody bisexual is on par with some of the most absurd Talimancer demands.

I never said I "promoted making everyone bisexual".  I don't really care, since I know who I want to romance and the other people's sexualities won't even come up in my game.  See, I have the ability to know what's being put in place for the sake of the videogame and reaching multiple demographics.  Not everything has to satisfy my personal biases and what I find plausible through modern "statistics".

No, my standpoint here is that you have no idea whether or not these people are being written as "suddenly changing sexuality", or if they've always been bisexual and merely pursue their relationships differently, or if they did consider themselves straight before and fell in love with a specific person.

There are many ways this can occur in naturally and well-written ways.  I think some of you have deeper agendas then you'd care to admit.

[antique_nova]

Maybe, Joker's reference to Garrus having a pole up his ass is more literal and truthful than we thought.

*Shudders

No flame intended

Modifié par antique_nova, 16 mai 2011 - 04:02 .

[Eradyn]

IccaRa wrote...

-Skorpious- wrote..

Why should his personality take such a drastic turn such as a change in sexual orientation?

The problem here is people thinking this would be a drastic change, which is a hyperbole of the highest order.

One should also not make the mistake of lessening the importance of sexual orientation and gender identity.  It cannot be understated how important these are to people as individuals and as societies.  Laws are enacted and torn down around these premises.  Throughout history, and even in a number of countries today, people are tortured and murdered over sexual orientation and gender identity.  Were it not important to people, were people not so defined by their sexual orientation and gender identity, there would not be this debate, there would not be LGBT or hetero pride marches, there would not be fights over legislation.

These facets of our persona are that important to us that people will fight for them.  They help define a huge chunk of who we are as individuals (and from indivudals to societies) and how we view other individuals.  You cannot pretend it wouldn't be drastic.  Already, a mere tweet, vague and not naming or defining ANY specific ME3 LIs this applies to, has caused an eruption of sorts in the forum.  And no names have even been dropped as to what characters will or will not be affected.

Whether or not this should be an "issue" is not relevant before reality.  The reality is that it does affect people of all orientations and identities.  People are not merely reacting over pixels, they are reacting over clashes of real world philosophies and beliefs that affect each of us intimately.  But then, this is the power of video games in today's world.

[jlb524]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
It baffles me, and rather amuses me, how you're all crying about how lazy this is from a writing perspective when you have absolutely ZERO information about what said writing even is.

I think regardless of how this is implemented, some people still claim the writing is crap on principle....like with the DA2 romances.

[atheelogos]

Raiders Fan 223 wrote...

First, I want to say that if pro S/S romance topics are allowed on this forum, then anti S/S romance topics should be allowed as well. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and I personally don’t get the fascination with same sex romances. Please read this entire post before you attack/judge.
 
Bioware, don’t screw this up. This sounds like it could be one of the best games in history – and based on what we’ve heard so far, it’s starting to look that way.   However, Casey’s tweet about same sex romances and LIs in ME3 is potentially devastating.
 
I understand Liara (and Kelly Chambers, I guess) are already considered S/S LIs. That’s fine. However, ME3 will be RUINED if, all of a sudden, a large proportion of existing characters turn out to be bi. It will honestly ruin the epicness of the series. Miranda, Thane, Garrus, Tali, Jacob… male shep – all bi? Don’t you see how this could make people who don’t share the views of those who post in the “Fight for the Love thread” a tad uncomfortable?
 
Proposed Solution – A compromise
In the world of Mass Effect, it is impossible to please everyone, because each player gets to create their own canon (a big reason why it is one of the best game series ever). If you must, make a small number of the current LIs interested in the same sex (like Kaiden and Jack). Don’t make it available for every character, and don’t even hint at it in the slightest for those who have romanced a different sex in ME 1 and 2. In addition, add one or two new LIs (James Vegas, for example) who might be openly interested in an SS romance.
 
I admit (as you likely now know if you read this entire post), that I am against SS romances.    Call me homophobic, I honestly don’t care. And I’m not trying to offend anyone who is gay or wants to pursue SS romance. But some people need to understand that SS romances, while interesting and desirable for some, can be potentially upsetting for others.

"add one or two new LIs (James Vegas, for example) who might be openly interested in an SS romance." Casey said there will be no new LI

"Miranda, Thane, Garrus, Tali, Jacob… male shep – all bi? " In all fairness Tali Miranda and Ashley were orginally suppose to be bi.

With that said it would seem out of place if Kaidan, or other NPCs, hit on me in 3 when they showed no interest in ME1. It would just seem out of place ya know? I like the fact that their doing S/S romances in 3. I just hope they do it in a way that makes sense.

[Inquisitor Recon]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
I don't presume you care.  If you cared about being aware I'm sure you would be more aware than you seem to be.
And, christ, what is with you people and your "suddenly deciding to change sexuality" crap?  Are you really assuming that much that this won't be handled in the writing? (Not that I think it needs to be, but y'all are kinda scary with your insistence that this is some kind of apocalypse.)
It baffles me, and rather amuses me, how you're all crying about how lazy this is from a writing perspective when you have absolutely ZERO information about what said writing even is.

Also, don't be so persistent about telling me what is or is not "statistically likely".  That's pretty much a BS argument in a sci-fi videogame full of similar, and much worse, story-telling faults then the optional sexuality of half a dozen (max) people.

It's telling how you believe "awareness" to be people just agreeing with your opinion. Considering how poorly Bioware has handled this in the past I think the response is appropriate. Moreso because "you people" are indeed demanding everybody become bisexual.

Statistics are still going to apply in the future. This entire concept of "Shepard-sexuals" is a story-telling fault on par with the worst of them.

[Xilizhra]

There are many ways this can occur in naturally and well-written ways. I think some of you have deeper agendas then you'd care to admit.

ReconTeam's agenda is quite open, so far as I know.