238 réponses à ce sujet

[Mystranna Kelteel]

ReconTeam wrote...
Of course what is? Sure, if something is extremely unlikely IRL it is also extremely unlikely in the game? So how is this a justifaction for such a decision on Bioware's part? Their sexualitites should be grounded in some level of reality, not absurd, very unlikely, scenario like that you support. It is simply bad writing in an effort to pander to a small group.

B. Well I disagree with you. It is not absurd to complain about extremely poor writing or what one can easily consider a retcon based on what we know of these characters.

A) I'll keep the importance of real life statistics and probabilities in mind the next time BioWare decides to have a long-range space chase boil down to mere mere seconds and minutes of timing (conduit), or have 6 people Shepard met on opposite sides of the galaxy all be located in one tiny spaceport, or...

No, nevermind, it could be quite a while if I kept going.  The point is that apparently a character's sexuality (which is going to be optional content) is far more serious and much more vital when considering it's basis in real life statistics, even when those statistics are still very possible.

I could consider a lot of things a retcon.  Doesn't mean they are retcons.  Similarly, I agree that you can complain about extremely poor writing, but, you know, only after you've actually experienced said writing.

[Ryzaki]

@CulturalGeekGirl: Except unlike all the other characters (save Samara) Mordin rejects Shepard.

[diskoh]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Again, the "consistency" of these characters is not a lore consistency but a perceived consistency with your assumptions about them.

You can play ME1 and assume that Garrus is not into human women because he won't romance you.
Then you can play ME2 and have that assumption be proven incorrect.

You can play ME1 and ME2 and assume that Garrus is not bisexual because he can only romance a femShep.
Then you can play ME3 and maybe your assumption will be proven wrong.

Both cases are the same. If the former is not a lore inconsistency then neither is the latter. It is a personal inconsistency that is only inconsistent within your mind based on your own predispositions and assumptions.

Excellent post, and a good end to the thread. Thanks for participating everyone.

[MACharlie1]

onelifecrisis wrote...

This whole "Garrus never said he's not gay" argument is a bit silly. Wrex never said he's not into flower arranging, but I think a lot of people would be surprised if he revealed in ME3 that it's always been his favourite passtime.

It would be odd because first they don't have flowers on Tuchanka. And second, Wrex is as likely to be into flower arranging as Ashley is - they both prefer a nice boom-stick. And if we were see that Wrex was into flower arranging, it wouldn't be a canon contradiction it would just be odd since it's unexpected for a Krogan warlord. Now if he was into flower arranging and putting flowers into Krogans plates then it'd be a contradictory. I could actually see Wrex admiring any type of floral on Tuchanka - it'd have to be one freakin tough flower to surive that world.  

And you can't say that Ashley/Kaidan don't have the personality to be homosexuals. As I've said before, I wouldn't have a problem if Shepard could act surprised if someone turned out to be bi. 

[Raiders Fan 223]

Xilizhra wrote...

As of now there's more evidence to suggest Garrus is completely straight. He tells you a nice story about him and a female Turian. He has only ever mentioned he's into women in dialog.

So mentioning one woman in one conversation=totally straight?

'

To play devil's advocate, if he had mentioned a male at some point in his diologue, some people likely would have labeled him bi/gay.  I might be mistaken, but I don't remember him doing so.

[diskoh]

I met my wife in college, was friends with her for about 5 years, then we admitted our feelings and started dating.

Apparently to many people this is a retcon, because people can only be attracted if they announce it when you first meet.

[Inquisitor Recon]

Where does this flawed thinking come from? "Despite the fact that these characters talked about their relationship with women, never hinted they were interested in male Shepard, or have nothing to suggest they are bisexual, there is a slight chance they are all bisexuals."

An extremely slight chance, and you want Bioware to go this route because it is "politically correct" and gives you what you want? Of course I am going to oppose this absurd scenario.

[TheKillerAngel]

Want me to make a poll on this topic?

[RGFrog]

Meh, why not take the argument out of everything at the begining. Let the player decide in the settings what LI roles he/she prefers. Be it all straight, all ghey, all bi, a mix, or "I don't care just give me the story you want to tell".

Then everyone can have what they want.

Bioware making these kind of broad-stroke changes in the final act is the problem that should really be addressed. If the writers, the producers, or whoever is pulling the strings is willing to deviate from the first two games with this content I have to wonder what else will jump the shark in the final chapter...

Personally, I like females. So, my female shep tends to gravitate to female characters. My male shep does the same. But, I've never seen characters like Garrus, Thane or Jacob as homosexual or bi at all and would be disappointed if BW changed this. New characters, fine.

But returning characters that were obviously NOT gay or bi suddenly changing is merely pandering and quite frankly is insulting. It's insulting to the gay community that is being treated like a fad/fashion hung upon characters like frilly suit of armor rather than a true social constraint. It's insulting to gamers as BW is only doing this to increase sales to a demographic. It's insulting to the story as sexual paradigms should have and seemed to have been already established.

Don't agree? Then present a logical argument as to why it's suddenly so important that everything change and why it's so important that the word is out about the changes?

[Xilizhra]

ReconTeam wrote...

Where does this flawed thinking come from? "Despite the fact that these characters talked about their relationship with women, never hinted they were interested in male Shepard, or have nothing to suggest they are bisexual, there is a slight chance they are all bisexuals."

An extremely slight chance, and you want Bioware to go this route because it is "politically correct" and gives you what you want? Of course I am going to oppose this absurd scenario.

It's not a matter of political correctness, it's a matter of expanding options for people who want them.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

SilentNukee wrote...

diskoh wrote...

Insom wrote...

It's too late for them to add any gay relationships for male Shepard at this point and make squad members that are straight, bi.

Which character has declared they are straight?

^^^^^ This, x1000.
No one has specifically announced their sexual preferences.
I don't care how much you love your favorite character, he/she has not announced if he/she was "straight", "bisexual" or "gay" at any point in time.
I don't care that they shared a little story with you involving a member of the opposite sex. It doesn't prove anything.
I don't care that you had a male on female or female on male sexual relation, that still doesn't prove anything.
Sexual identity doesn't stop a person from being the way they are. (So many people seem to think it does...)

Heh, people make it sound like 'declaring' one's sexual prefence means they're being honest about it.

[Fat Headed Wolf]

strive wrote...

I don't understand how people are flipping out over a character "suddenly" being interested in the same sex kills their character/personality. When we had no clue that Tali nor Garrus was interested in humans prior to ME:2, and I was given the impression from ME1 that outside of Asari inter-species relationships were nearly unheard of.

I think it's the belief that the new homosexual characters will rip their pants off like an NBA player does during pre-game.  

Also, I think some are a bit scared that their fav character will come onto them (even for the slightest time) and that will always be in their minds. Of course, some could be a bit uncomfortable with homosexuality. When not taken to far, I suppose that's O.K. It's all cultural after all. I don't eat dogs, I think it's gross, but some people do and don't think it's strange at all. 

It's all culture. I can't criticize someone's culture as being "wrong" while I consider mine as "right".

Modifié par Fat Headed Wolf, 16 mai 2011 - 04:56 .

[onelifecrisis]

diskoh wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

This argument that characters like Garrus have never said they're not bi is pretty ridiculous. Wrex never said that he's not into flower arranging, but I think a lot of people would think it a little odd if in ME3 he declares it's always been one of his favourite passtimes.

diskoh wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

DoNuTwInGs wrote...
when they've shown zero interest in the past games.

That's my fear as well.

You're not giving enough credit to the writing. You guys are acting as if Kaidan is going to show up and say "Hey Shepard, I'm back and I'm GAAAAAAAAY!!!!"

That's exactly what happened with Tali in ME2. Hey Shepard, you're back and I always had the hots for you!

That's not how I viewed it at all. I saw an organic development to a relationship, just like they often evolve in real life. In real life there are more occurances than 1) You're immediately attracted to each other and jump into a relationship or 2) You are never attracted to each other. Relationships develop in many different ways.

In my opinion Tali was written well, had a logical and reasonable explanation, and was a very sweet storyline. I'd love for the s/s stories to be as good as that one.

Tali's feelings did not "develop". They're thrown at you (via Kelly) the second she steps onboard. And if you go through the romance she claims she always had these feelings and was just incredibly good at hiding them in ME1. That's not a development, it's a retcon. It's just a retcon that a lot of people liked.

[Raiders Fan 223]

TheKillerAngel wrote...

Want me to make a poll on this topic?

I wish I would have done that

[Inquisitor Recon]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
No, nevermind, it could be quite a while if I kept going.  The point is that apparently a character's sexuality (which is going to be optional content) is far more serious and much more vital when considering it's basis in real life statistics, even when those statistics are still very possible.

I could consider a lot of things a retcon.  Doesn't mean they are retcons.  Similarly, I agree that you can complain about extremely poor writing, but, you know, only after you've actually experienced said writing.

No it isn't very possible, especially when they've only ever hinted their interest in women. Basically you want to have Bioware go with these absurd scenario for personal reasons, suspension of disbelief be damned.

[Inquisitor Recon]

Xilizhra wrote...
It's not a matter of political correctness, it's a matter of expanding options for people who want them.

No, it's political correctness. I rather doubt you would support some of the other more odd suggestions out there for the sake of "expanding options."

[J. Finley]

The only thing I'm asking for out of this is that people that don't want to be effected by it don't get effected by it.

[SilentNukee]

ReconTeam wrote...

Where does this flawed thinking come from? "Despite the fact that these characters talked about their relationship with women, never hinted they were interested in male Shepard, or have nothing to suggest they are bisexual, there is a slight chance they are all bisexuals."

An extremely slight chance, and you want Bioware to go this route because it is "politically correct" and gives you what you want? Of course I am going to oppose this absurd scenario.

Everyone assumes I'm straight because I've been with the same guy for 4 years and don't talk about my past. Is that true? No. I'm quite the bisexual. I can talk about my past and share a story about another guy, still doesn't change what I actually am.
It's not extremely slight, it's totally possible. Until someone in the squad completely comes out stating they're straight, then that'll be that. Until then, there's always a possibility. (Except for Jack, since she pretty much says she's straight.)

[DoNuTwInGs]

With all the LI's now, Shepard might be overwhelmed...

http://i.imgur.com/Vr5MN.png

Modifié par DoNuTwInGs, 16 mai 2011 - 04:54 .

[diskoh]

Raiders Fan 223 wrote...

TheKillerAngel wrote...

Want me to make a poll on this topic?

I wish I would have done that

Hard to make a poll using the OP of this topic because it's a strawman. Nobody ever asked or suggested that every squadmate be bi, and that's not a realistic option.

What the Fight for the Love thread asked for was same sex romance option. That's it. The "compromise" offered up of 1 male and 1 female is what we asked for from the start.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

ReconTeam wrote...

Where does this flawed thinking come from? "Despite the fact that these characters talked about their relationship with women, never hinted they were interested in male Shepard, or have nothing to suggest they are bisexual, there is a slight chance they are all bisexuals."

An extremely slight chance, and you want Bioware to go this route because it is "politically correct" and gives you what you want? Of course I am going to oppose this absurd scenario.

How is that flawed thinking?  Garrus mentions one relationship he had.  It happened to be with a woman.

For all we know he could have had 30 stories about "sparring" with military men.  Maybe he deemed them inappropriate for the current company, maybe the story about the female was more relevant to his point.  Doesn't matter; the point is that discussing one relationship does not give other people the entire romantic history of that person.

Quite the contrary, I think "flawed thinking" would be telling yourself that Garrus's story proves he is straight and will never diverge from it.  That line of thinking is purely arrogant and rife with assumptions.  Are you just afraid that your assumption might be wrong?  Did you place that much importance on your one little assumption derived from a single conversation?

[Alpha-Centuri]

TheKillerAngel wrote...

Want me to make a poll on this topic?

Forum goers are a very vocal, and are a smalllll minority.

I can't take a [digital] step without  talking to a FemShep player. Yet 85%+ play MaleShep in general.

[Xilizhra]

ReconTeam wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
It's not a matter of political correctness, it's a matter of expanding options for people who want them.

No, it's political correctness. I rather doubt you would support some of the other more odd suggestions out there for the sake of "expanding options."

You presume a fair amount. But fair enough. Lay them on me.

[Eradyn]

I think it might be relevant to the discussion, as he was brought up, to mention that Kaidan has gay romance lines in ME1 and a reunion in ME2 (if triggered in ME1 and carried over). Obviously cut from the game, but a lot of verbal dialogue (not all the lines made it in before this was scrapped) from the m/m romance was left in the files.

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Final Romance Scene
ME2 Romance Continuation With Kaidan

Modifié par Eradyn, 16 mai 2011 - 04:56 .

[Ryzaki]

Jayman1337 wrote...

The only thing I'm asking for out of this is that people that don't want to be effected by it don't get effected by it.

This is strongly agree with but I want it to apply for all the romances in general. 

No one should be accidently stumbling into an unwanted romance.