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What's a rivalry romance like?

Débuté par Rolenka , mai 16 2011 03:24

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51 réponses à ce sujet

#26
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Posté 17 mai 2011 - 12:37

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You don't have to be mean to Merrill to get Rivalmance.

I was uber nice to her all along, and at Mirror Image I was at 95% Friendship with her. Then I refused to give her the ancient carving knife.

KABOOM. Merrill Rivalry +175.

Then, just destroy a few Evil Tomes and she's locked in Rivalry.

Hawke can be very protective of Merrill in a Rivalmance. My Templar!Hawke is the only thing standing between Merrill and demonic possession. She is her guardian and her shield. I find it a lot more romantic, and no less realistic, than my BloodMage!Hawke's "Yay let's cut ourselves together" Friendshipmance with Merrill.

Especially in the Fade, where I set up Merrill's Tactics so good, and deliberately gave her a head start. She immediately put Anders and Varric to Sleep and raised a Tempest above them which killed them in 3 seconds. Then it's an epic showdown of Merrill vs. Templar!Hawke right in the Fade version of Templar Hall. FRELLING EPIC.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 17 mai 2011 - 12:44 .

#27
Xilizhra
Posté 17 mai 2011 - 12:39

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Yes... it's ginormously mean to Merrill.

#28
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Posté 17 mai 2011 - 12:49

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Why? The only mean thing my Templar!Hawke did or said to Merrill was not giving her the knife, and that's because Hawke defers to Marethari's wisdom. Hawke is not Mage herself, and it's natural for her to trust a Dalish Keeper who's basically Merrill's mom.

It's like if your girlfriend is a crackhead, and her mom wants her to go into rehab, and you take her mom's side. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

With BloodMage!Hawke it's different. My BloodMage!Hawke is just as fascinated by the Eluvian's magical power as Merrill, and has a much stronger will than Merrill so that she is confident to face any kind of demonic temptation (she tricked and killed Torpor in the Fade). In that case, BloodMage!Hawke is certain that with her powers and Merrill's combined, they can truly discover the secrets behind the Eluvian.

That kind of logic doesn't work with Templar!Hawke, unfortunately.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 17 mai 2011 - 12:51 .

#29
Xilizhra
Posté 17 mai 2011 - 12:53

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It would be... except her mom is quite possibly a pride abomination getting off on her daughter's despair.

#30
jlb524
Posté 17 mai 2011 - 01:05

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The issue I have with that is that Hawke and Marethari are practically stabbing Merrill in the back by not giving her the tool because it's rightfully hers. She invoked the whatchamacallit in order to earn the arulin'holm, which belongs to all members in the clan including Merrill...Marethari then turns around and gives it to a human after Merrill keeps her end of the bargain.

Modifié par jlb524, 17 mai 2011 - 01:06 .

#31
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Posté 17 mai 2011 - 01:06

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Xilizhra wrote...

It would be... except her mom is quite possibly a pride abomination getting off on her daughter's despair.

Not until some 3 years later and only as an act of desperation (whether misguided or not). You can't possibly be saying that Marethari is a pride abomination all along?!

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 17 mai 2011 - 01:06 .

#32
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Posté 17 mai 2011 - 01:10

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jlb524 wrote...

The issue I have with that is that Hawke and Marethari are practically stabbing Merrill in the back by not giving her the tool because it's rightfully hers. She invoked the whatchamacallit in order to earn the arulin'holm, which belongs to all members in the clan including Merrill...Marethari then turns around and gives it to a human after Merrill keeps her end of the bargain.

Marethari is the Keeper, and if she decides a human can keep the tool from Merrill, then it's in accordance with tradition. You cannot say Merrill has a better understanding of Elven tradition than Marethari, because Marethari is whom she learned it from.

Also, the knife is given to who performed a service (in this case, killing the Varteral) to the clan. Hawke & others played instrumental roles in performing the service, even though they are not Dalish. In my game on Nightmare, Merrill couldn't possibly have killed the Varteral without Hawke's help because well, she has no Force Mage specialization or Creation tree.

All I'm saying is, Rivalmance with Merrill could make just as much sense as Friendshipmance, without Hawke being mean or abusive in the tiniest. You only need a different perspective, and that is what Role Playing is about.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 17 mai 2011 - 01:14 .

#33
Xilizhra
Posté 17 mai 2011 - 01:24

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Not until some 3 years later and only as an act of desperation (whether misguided or not). You can't possibly be saying that Marethari is a pride abomination all along?!

It's entirely possible that she was one since Act 2.

All I'm saying is, Rivalmance with Merrill could make just as much sense as Friendshipmance, without Hawke being mean or abusive in the tiniest. You only need a different perspective, and that is what Role Playing is about.

Hawke takes the same actions; it's up to player interpretation to determine whether they're mean or abusive. In my opinion, you cannot play the rivalmance without being some of each.

#34
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Posté 17 mai 2011 - 01:34

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Xilizhra wrote...

Not until some 3 years later and only as an act of desperation (whether misguided or not). You can't possibly be saying that Marethari is a pride abomination all along?!

It's entirely possible that she was one since Act 2.

Then she has gone 3 years as a Pride Abomination without anything too bad happening, while functioning normally as a Dalish Keeper without anyone in the clan noticing. Why couldn't she have kept going like that for another, say, 15 years, and you know, die of natural causes?

In game, it's pretty obvious that the Marethari you talked to at Sundermount's base in the "A New Path" quest ("Your First is going to summon a demon...") is a very different Marethari than one you meet in Pride's End. In Pride's End it's apparent that Marethari is barely holding on to her consciousness while fighting the demonic possession within, while a few hours ago at Sundermount's base she sounds as calm as ever.

In short, I think any interpretation of Marethari's possession happening some time OTHER than during Hawke&Merrill's hike up Sundermount during "A New Path" is going to require a lot of extra plot happening off camera, and can only be entertained by specific players in their own version of the story.

#35
Xilizhra
Posté 17 mai 2011 - 01:39

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Then she has gone 3 years as a Pride Abomination without anything too bad happening, while functioning normally as a Dalish Keeper without anyone in the clan noticing. Why couldn't she have kept going like that for another, say, 15 years, and you know, die of natural causes?

I think she was trying to engineer Merrill's downfall.

In game, it's pretty obvious that the Marethari you talked to at Sundermount's base in the "A New Path" quest ("Your First is going to summon a demon...") is a very different Marethari than one you meet in Pride's End. In Pride's End it's apparent that Marethari is barely holding on to her consciousness while fighting the demonic possession within, while a few hours ago at Sundermount's base she sounds as calm as ever.

She also sounds perfectly calm when trying to convince Merrill not to kill her, when it's definitely Audacity speaking. That was definitely a performance, and so too could the whole thing be.

#36
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Posté 17 mai 2011 - 01:41

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Xilizhra wrote...
Hawke takes the same actions; it's up to player interpretation to determine whether they're mean or abusive. In my opinion, you cannot play the rivalmance without being some of each.

If you count the single act of withholding the knife, then I agree.

I only did this Rivalmance because I learned you can get +175 Rivalray by withholding the knife (I usually get Frienship maxed before that, so I get Friendshipmance even if I hold the knife, which doesn't make sense). I never said a single mean thing to Merrill, I swear. She, by contrast, called me a shemlen, but I forgave her.

#37
jlb524
Posté 17 mai 2011 - 01:42

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iOnlySignIn wrote...
Marethari is the Keeper, and if she decides a human can keep the tool from Merrill, then it's in accordance with tradition. You cannot say Merrill has a better understanding of Elven tradition than Marethari, because Marethari is whom she learned it from.


But it really isn't in accordance to tradition, as I understand it at least from the dialog.  Marethari decides to go against it, which I suppose she has a right to, but it's still going back on her word.  Marethari knows more than Merrill in general, but it seems that Merrill knows about that particular rite.

iOnlySignIn wrote...
Also, the knife is given to who performed a service (in this case, killing the Varteral) to the clan. Hawke & others played instrumental roles in performing the service, even though they are not Dalish. In my game on Nightmare, Merrill couldn't possibly have killed the Varteral without Hawke's help because well, she has no Force Mage specialization or Creation tree.


Then she could have given it to anyone in the party.  My understanding is that it's supposed to go to the dalish elf who invokes the rite, regardless of how she accomplishes the task or even if she gets others to assist her.

Regardless, you're free to RP how you like.  It just seems to me keeping the tool is like a betrayal even if Hawke's intentions are good.  I mean, that's part of the reason she gets so angry.

Modifié par jlb524, 17 mai 2011 - 01:42 .

#38
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Posté 17 mai 2011 - 01:43

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She also sounds perfectly calm when trying to convince Merrill not to kill her, when it's definitely Audacity speaking. That was definitely a performance, and so too could the whole thing be.

Possibly, but why?

Xilizhra wrote...

Then she has gone 3 years as a Pride Abomination without anything too bad happening, while functioning normally as a Dalish Keeper without anyone in the clan noticing. Why couldn't she have kept going like that for another, say, 15 years, and you know, die of natural causes?

I think she was trying to engineer Merrill's downfall.

OK, that's why.

But... why? What does she get out of Merrill's downfall? Nothing, unless she's some kind of sadistic pervert (which is clearly a very personal interpretation, and not remotely part of the story of the majority of the players).

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 17 mai 2011 - 01:48 .

#39
HogarthHughes 3
Posté 17 mai 2011 - 01:48

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It just feels wrong for me to deny Merrill the tool for the Eluvian after that quest. Why even take her there to get the thing just do deny her it? I suppose that could just be more of a failure in quest structure, where the only way to progress her relationship with Hawke is to do it. Feels too much like Hawke is a parent figure or something though when I do it, on my pro-templar runs I just ignore her completely as she is a blood mage, pity you can't just kill her on the way to Kirkwall or refuse to take her there.

*edit - to be more on topic, I really didn't like the Isabella rivalmance, the others were better for me but with her, it made me wonder why Hawke and Isabella were even still talking.  I suppose some people just love arguing, but even Fenris for all his hate never seemed quite so opposed to Hawke as Isabella did as rivals.  I'm more of a mind where, if you don't like someone and all you do is argue, then why would you pursue a casual semi-friendship or even romance with that person?

Modifié par HogarthHughes 3, 17 mai 2011 - 01:53 .

#40
Xilizhra
Posté 17 mai 2011 - 01:49

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If you count the single act of withholding the knife, then I agree.

It's a single act, but so is Anders blowing up the Chantry. It's a pretty big act, at least emotionally.

But... why? What does she get out of Merrill's downfall? Nothing, unless she's some kind of sadistic pervert (which is clearly a very personal interpretation, and not remotely part of the story of the majority of the players).

We know that she's prideful and quite adamantly against Merrill restoring the Eluvian, but never giving a reason why after Merrill cleanses it of its taint. I believe that she isn't naturally a sadistic pervert, but I do believe that Audacity could have entered and twisted her.

#41
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Posté 17 mai 2011 - 02:00

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jlb524 wrote...
Then she could have given it to anyone in the party.  My understanding is that it's supposed to go to the dalish elf who invokes the rite, regardless of how she accomplishes the task or even if she gets others to assist her.

Regardless, you're free to RP how you like.  It just seems to me keeping the tool is like a betrayal even if Hawke's intentions are good.  I mean, that's part of the reason she gets so angry.

That's a very good point. I admit I've been infuriated by the Dalish "smug sense of superiority" (read: Racism).

I fought the the Varteral to help the Dalish, even though I'm not Dalish, and now I have no right to keep the knife, simply because I'm not Dalish? I have no right because I'm of the 'wrong' race? That's Racism at its most poignant. Call it tradition anything, but I feel Hawke deserves the knife as much as Merrill, if not more because Hawke did all the fighing.

Saying Hawke has no right to keep the knife because they're not Dalish is like saying Hawke has no right to become the Champion of Kirkwall after killing the Arishok because they're Ferelden.

#42
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Posté 17 mai 2011 - 02:05

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Xilizhra wrote...

If you count the single act of withholding the knife, then I agree.

It's a single act, but so is Anders blowing up the Chantry. It's a pretty big act, at least emotionally.

As big as killing hundreds of innocents people and sparking a Thedas-wide war which leads to the death of possibly millions of innocent people, I'm sure.

I'm sure everyone in Thedas cares as much about that mirror as the Mage-Templar conflict. In fact I hear them talking about it obssessively in every street corner.

But... why? What does she get out of Merrill's downfall? Nothing, unless she's some kind of sadistic pervert (which is clearly a very personal interpretation, and not remotely part of the story of the majority of the players).

We know that she's prideful and quite adamantly against Merrill restoring the Eluvian, but never giving a reason why after Merrill cleanses it of its taint. I believe that she isn't naturally a sadistic pervert, but I do believe that Audacity could have entered and twisted her.

Oh, so the demon corrupted her. Or perhaps it's a piece of a lyrium idol sold to her by a dwarf. Or perhaps she just thinks Pride Abominations look sexy, like how Orsino gets his kicks from becoming a Harvester. You should really become a writer at BioWare.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 17 mai 2011 - 02:08 .

#43
Maria Caliban
Posté 17 mai 2011 - 02:05

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A rivalry romance with Isabela is like Superman romancing Catwoman.
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#44
jlb524
Posté 17 mai 2011 - 02:05

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I don't think it's necessarily racism on their part, it's just how that particular tradition works, and it's how the dalish deal with property. They have items that belong to the clan and no one outside of it has a right to it...probably not even a dalish elf from another clan.

I was also thinking about Merrill's emotional and mental state after the varterral encounter and decided that it would be pretty damn awful, given Pol's death and the clan's reaction to her. THEN Marethari goes against tradition and hands the clan's tool to a human...I think that alone should have prompted her to become angry but I think her emotions were too caught up with her grief/shock over the whole mess prior. Plus, she probably assumed Hawke would just then hand it to her...

To reiterate, Hawke's intentions here could be noble, but the act itself is pretty mean, all things considered.

#45
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Posté 17 mai 2011 - 02:14

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jlb524 wrote...
I was also thinking about Merrill's emotional and mental state after the varterral encounter and decided that it would be pretty damn awful, given Pol's death and the clan's reaction to her. THEN Marethari goes against tradition and hands the clan's tool to a human...I think that alone should have prompted her to become angry but I think her emotions were too caught up with her grief/shock over the whole mess prior. Plus, she probably assumed Hawke would just then hand it to her...

To reiterate, Hawke's intentions here could be noble, but the act itself is pretty mean, all things considered.

Ah, now you make me feel I'm a bad, bad person. But at the very very least, my Hawke was still a million times nicer to Merrill than her own clan. I'll take comfort in that.

#46
Xilizhra
Posté 17 mai 2011 - 02:17

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Saying Hawke has no right to keep the knife because they're not Dalish is like saying Hawke has no right to become the Champion of Kirkwall after killing the Arishok because they're Ferelden.

Hawke also wasn't the one who asked for it.

As big as killing hundreds of innocents people and sparking a Thedas-wide war which leads to the death of possibly millions of innocent people, I'm sure.

I'm sure everyone in Thedas cares as much about that mirror as the Mage-Templar conflict. In fact I hear them talking about it obssessively in every street corner.

The sarcasm is somewhat deserved, but what I meant was that a single act can have great meaning.

Oh, so the demon corrupted her. Or perhaps it's a piece of a lyrium idol sold to her by a dwarf. Or perhaps she just thinks Pride Abominations look sexy, like how Orsino gets his kicks from becoming a Harvester. You should really become a writer at BioWare.

It's true, we never know nearly enough about, well, anyone.

#47
ReiSilver
Posté 17 mai 2011 - 02:49

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I've only done Fenris' Rivalmance and I gotta say it was hot and made sense, plus Fenris slamming my male Hawke against the wall... mmm
I was playing a mage Hawke so the relationship went a bit like this:
Hawke: That stuff that happened to you is terrible!
Fenris: Don't pity me! Mages suck... well except you.... maybe.
Hawke: well... that's sweet. I'm gonna help these mages escape templars
Fenris: OMG WTF stop being naive! Not every mage is you
Hawke: You have to let go of your past Fenris
Fenris: shut up and kiss me

#48
tsunderes
Posté 17 mai 2011 - 03:55

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Xilizhra wrote...

If you count the single act of withholding the knife, then I agree.

It's a single act, but so is Anders blowing up the Chantry. It's a pretty big act, at least emotionally.

But... why? What does she get out of Merrill's downfall? Nothing, unless she's some kind of sadistic pervert (which is clearly a very personal interpretation, and not remotely part of the story of the majority of the players).

We know that she's prideful and quite adamantly against Merrill restoring the Eluvian, but never giving a reason why after Merrill cleanses it of its taint. I believe that she isn't naturally a sadistic pervert, but I do believe that Audacity could have entered and twisted her.


wtf am i reading. :mellow:

#49
Ryzaki
Posté 17 mai 2011 - 04:11

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I wish my aggressive Hawke would've said "elf" when she called him shemlen.

#50
TheTranzor
Posté 17 mai 2011 - 04:12

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Rivalmance =

Love interest:  "I hate you!"

Hawke:  "I hate you more!"

Love interest:  "Hawke you big stud, take me to bed or lose me forever!"

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