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[JamesMoriarty123]

EDIT:- Sigh...**** it, I give up. If they turn Kaiden gay, I'll just Zev Knife him.

Not that it matters much, Liara is the only one for my Shepherd anyway.

Modifié par JamesMoriarty123, 18 mai 2011 - 09:06 .

[Augoeides]

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

Augoeides wrote...

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

If they turn this into another Anders from DA2, I'll be extremely disappointed. Nothing ruins my immersion more than trying to drum up some "brothers in arms" type camaradarie and then have the guy turn out to be a fooking bender, a blatant bender, intent on bedding me from the off.

Man, they got it waaaayyyy wrong.

Also, if they **** with Kaiden (who is straight, fact) or Garrus (also straight, fact) I'll be most displeased.

Make the new guy gay if you want, but at least let us be his friend without him wanting us to be his butt buddy.

When and if Casey Hudson or another person in the equivalent position says he is Straight or he is not a Bi option in game/says that he is straight, then you can assert that as fact. What you perceive and want does not equal in-game reality in fiction.

Are you insane? Seriously, that is my question to you. They both talk about former female love interests and are both currently love interests for FemShep.

When will you guys get it into your head, they're not bent, that's it. The twitter post practically confirms as much. Current LI's will not necessarily be bent out of character (lol) to fit into a mould that the gay community seemingly demand on EVERY thread like this.

What you have here is Bioware pandering, pandering their asses off to accomodate the smallest demographic of gamer that actually purchases their games. It saddens me that it isn't about just creating a kick ass game anymore, it's about making sure everything is PC, and the poor uncared for gay gamer is accomodated for. Quite sickening really.

Casey Hudson said that wasn't necessarily true that previously straight characters would be bisexual, there's distinctly ambiguous. The comment that previously straight characters would be bisexual is a pretty universal statement and may not apply in all situations.

I'll quote some Galder now, not because he is Bioware, and not because he has relevance to ME (which he doesn't) but because he makes a damned good point on your sense of entitlement. Not every line of this is applicable but you get the gist:

"The romances in the game (DA2) are not for "the straight male gamer". They're
for everyone. We have a lot of fans, many of whom are neither straight
nor male, and they deserve no less attention. We have good numbers,
after all, on the number of people who actually used similar sorts of
content in DAO and thus don't need to resort to anecdotal evidence to
support our idea that their numbers are not insignificant... and that's
ignoring the idea that they don't have just as much right to play the
kind of game they wish as anyone else. The "rights" of anyone with
regards to a game are murky at best, but anyone who takes that stance
must apply it equally to both the minority as well as the majority. The
majority has no inherent "right" to get more options than anyone else.

More
than that, I would question anyone deciding they speak for "the
straight male gamer" just as much as someone claiming they speak for
"all RPG fans", "all female fans" or even "all gay fans". You don't. If
you wish to express your personal desires, then do so. I have no doubt
that any opinion expressed on
these forums is shared by many others, but since none of them have
elected a spokesperson you're better off not trying to be one. If your
attempt is to convince BioWare developers, I can tell you that you do in
fact make your opinion less convincing by doing so.

And if there
is any doubt why such an opinion might be met with hostility, it has to
do with privilege. You can write it off as "political correctness" if
you wish, but the truth is that privilege always lies with the majority.
They're so used to being catered to that they see the lack of catering
as an imbalance. They don't see anything wrong with having things set up
to suit them, what's everyone's fuss all about? That's the way it
should be, any everyone else should be used to not getting what they
want."

Also on your comment on they've had hetero romances and experiences:

I watch straight porn, people then assume I'm straight: I'm gay actually.
A man marries a woman, he is therefore straight, I personally know of exceptions to this where a gay man was railroaded to fit societal convetions.
I know a gay man who lost his virginity to a woman, it was soon after that he started realize he wasn't quite into them.

[KawaiiKatie]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

That said, it's possible to know someone for a very long time and not have their bisexuality come up.

I'm totally game for a big fat Bi The Way from returning Mass Effect characters! Especially if it's because the character feels like he/she has gotten to know Shepard well enough to share that side of themselves.... So romantic! *le sigh*

<3

[KawaiiKatie]

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

If they turn Kaiden gay, I just won't speak to him, or just start a new playthough with Ash instead.

lawl, I think they call that the "Zevran knife." Or if they don't they should.

"Bisexual male character? Oh, I'll just knife him in the throat / leave him on Virmire so I don't have to deal with it."

Okay, yeah, now I'm convinced that the phrase "Zevran knife" should be an official trope or something. I'm really amused by it.

Modifié par KawaiiKatie, 18 mai 2011 - 08:48 .

[Augoeides]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I'm tired of the Schrodinger's Sexuality argument. Look, we won't know if the cat is bisexual until we open the box, ok? But we can listen to the scratching and make some guesses. Also, we can all be murdered by radioactive zombie cats. It's not an exact science.

That said, it's possible to know someone for a very long time and not have their bisexuality come up. I'm not saying that it's likely, I'm saying that it's possible. Can we all just agree "unlikely, but possible, won't know until we open the box." and move on?

I'll admit I would not normally use the Schrodinger's argument (or as I lack to call it; Black Box Cat, just to mix metaphors to the same end) BUT I am using it in light of cut content from the original games, such as Kaidan's recorded m/m lines.

Now look at Anders from DA:OA and DA:2, I DO think his bisexual romance is a bad retcon because it DOES rely on the Black Box Cat argument, there were no indications in game or by cut content that he was interested in men (as far as I'm aware).

[SennenScale]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I'm tired of the Schrodinger's Sexuality argument. Look, we won't know if the cat is bisexual until we open the box, ok? But we can listen to the scratching and make some guesses. Also, we can all be murdered by radioactive zombie cats. It's not an exact science.

That said, it's possible to know someone for a very long time and not have their bisexuality come up. I'm not saying that it's likely, I'm saying that it's possible. Can we all just agree "unlikely, but possible, won't know until we open the box." and move on?

Sorry for rehasing. Thread goes nowhere fast sometimes.

I know we can make educated guesses. But people just keep treating their guesses as absolute infallible, sacred canon and it just isn't. It is an educated guess that usually pans out, but it doesn't always.

I'd like to move on myself, but the "they've shown interest in a woman before so making them bi is a retcon" or "I will rage because they don't ping my gaydar" keeps getting brought up.

EDIT:Spelling errors. Why am I OCD about it? Oh well.

Modifié par SennenScale, 18 mai 2011 - 08:51 .

[JamesMoriarty123]

Augoeides wrote...

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

Augoeides wrote...

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

If they turn this into another Anders from DA2, I'll be extremely disappointed. Nothing ruins my immersion more than trying to drum up some "brothers in arms" type camaradarie and then have the guy turn out to be a fooking bender, a blatant bender, intent on bedding me from the off.

Man, they got it waaaayyyy wrong.

Also, if they **** with Kaiden (who is straight, fact) or Garrus (also straight, fact) I'll be most displeased.

Make the new guy gay if you want, but at least let us be his friend without him wanting us to be his butt buddy.

When and if Casey Hudson or another person in the equivalent position says he is Straight or he is not a Bi option in game/says that he is straight, then you can assert that as fact. What you perceive and want does not equal in-game reality in fiction.

Are you insane? Seriously, that is my question to you. They both talk about former female love interests and are both currently love interests for FemShep.

When will you guys get it into your head, they're not bent, that's it. The twitter post practically confirms as much. Current LI's will not necessarily be bent out of character (lol) to fit into a mould that the gay community seemingly demand on EVERY thread like this.

What you have here is Bioware pandering, pandering their asses off to accomodate the smallest demographic of gamer that actually purchases their games. It saddens me that it isn't about just creating a kick ass game anymore, it's about making sure everything is PC, and the poor uncared for gay gamer is accomodated for. Quite sickening really.

Casey Hudson said that wasn't necessarily true that previously straight characters would be bisexual, there's distinctly ambiguous. The comment that previously straight characters would be bisexual is a pretty universal statement and may not apply in all situations.

I'll quote some Galder now, not because he is Bioware, and not because he has relevance to ME (which he doesn't) but because he makes a damned good point on your sense of entitlement. Not every line of this is applicable but you get the gist:

"The romances in the game (DA2) are not for "the straight male gamer". They're
for everyone. We have a lot of fans, many of whom are neither straight
nor male, and they deserve no less attention. We have good numbers,
after all, on the number of people who actually used similar sorts of
content in DAO and thus don't need to resort to anecdotal evidence to
support our idea that their numbers are not insignificant... and that's
ignoring the idea that they don't have just as much right to play the
kind of game they wish as anyone else. The "rights" of anyone with
regards to a game are murky at best, but anyone who takes that stance
must apply it equally to both the minority as well as the majority. The
majority has no inherent "right" to get more options than anyone else.

More
than that, I would question anyone deciding they speak for "the
straight male gamer" just as much as someone claiming they speak for
"all RPG fans", "all female fans" or even "all gay fans". You don't. If
you wish to express your personal desires, then do so. I have no doubt
that any opinion expressed on
these forums is shared by many others, but since none of them have
elected a spokesperson you're better off not trying to be one. If your
attempt is to convince BioWare developers, I can tell you that you do in
fact make your opinion less convincing by doing so.

And if there
is any doubt why such an opinion might be met with hostility, it has to
do with privilege. You can write it off as "political correctness" if
you wish, but the truth is that privilege always lies with the majority.
They're so used to being catered to that they see the lack of catering
as an imbalance. They don't see anything wrong with having things set up
to suit them, what's everyone's fuss all about? That's the way it
should be, any everyone else should be used to not getting what they
want."

Also on your comment on they've had hetero romances and experiences:

I watch straight porn, people then assume I'm straight: I'm gay actually.
A man marries a woman, he is therefore straight, I personally know of exceptions to this where a gay man was railroaded to fit societal convetions.
I know a gay man who lost his virginity to a woman, it was soon after that he started realize he wasn't quite into them.

And you regard the DA2 romances as a success? Lol...you just lost a lot of credibility right there. They were paperweight and completely tacked on. Appeal to the masses, lose the heart of the core experience.

ME's romances are so much more involving, so much so that they spread across 3 games. Anyway, I'm done with this. We'll see how the chips fall, I just hope Bioware doesn't kowtow too much to a desperately small but EXTREMELY VOCAL minority.

Modifié par JamesMoriarty123, 18 mai 2011 - 08:55 .

[Augoeides]

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

And you regard the DA2 romances as a success? Lol...you just lost a lot of credibility right there. They were paperweight and completely tacked on. Appeal to the masses, lose the heart of the core experience.

ME's romances are so much more involving, so much so that they spread across 3 games. Anyway, I'm done with this. We'll see how the chips fall, I just hope Bioware doesn't kowtow too much to a desperately small minority.

Now, I never said that, in fact, you missed my point entirely. What I am saying is that you're buying into a sense of entitlement and privilege and that you have no more right to a certain type of romance than any other group. Majority or minority be damned, you have no rights to any content that isn't explicitly (in technical detail) promised in the game.

(in technical detail) clarification: Promises of 'engrossing story' aren't real promises, just promotion.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I have a true story from the game industry to recount.

I had a friend whose job was to read everything that came in over the feedback line. And I mean everything, profanity-filled emails, crazy rants, what-have-you. Pages and pages of the worst nonsense, but every single word that any player ever wrote got read. Then she'd make up a digest of feedback stuff to give to the developers.

Every single polite suggestion ever submitted got read by a someone who had a chance to act on it. Anything that said "sickening" or "morons" got binned. One dev on her team had a habit of trying to fix any feedback issue that he was capable of fixing... but there were some complaints he never saw, because he didn't want to see the ones with the word "moron" in them.

You catch more flies with honey than you do by telling people their current actions are sickening, is all I'm saying.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 18 mai 2011 - 08:59 .

[SennenScale]

KawaiiKatie wrote...
lawl, I think they call that the "Zevran knife." Or if they don't they should.

"Bisexual male character? Oh, I'll just knife him in the throat / leave him on Virmire so I don't have to deal with it."

Okay, yeah, now I'm convinced that the phrase "Zevran knife" should be an official trope or something. I'm really amused by it.

I think it's called Bury Your Gays?

Sad that they'll kill him over it, and yet amusing that people get so worked up about it as to kill him.

How do they even do it? I can't bear to kill a party member!

[JamesMoriarty123]

Augoeides wrote...

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

And you regard the DA2 romances as a success? Lol...you just lost a lot of credibility right there. They were paperweight and completely tacked on. Appeal to the masses, lose the heart of the core experience.

ME's romances are so much more involving, so much so that they spread across 3 games. Anyway, I'm done with this. We'll see how the chips fall, I just hope Bioware doesn't kowtow too much to a desperately small minority.

Now, I never said that, in fact, you missed my point entirely. What I am saying is that you're buying into a sense of entitlement and privilege and that you have no more right to a certain type of romance than any other group. Majority or minority be damned, you have no rights to any content that isn't explicitly (in technical detail) promised in the game.

(in technical detail) clarification: Promises of 'engrossing story' aren't real promises, just promotion.

And by that same token, what is it that gives you the right to feel entitled to have a certain romance type in the game? Simply because there are currently straight romances? If that were the case then should EVERY game be unabashedly catering for the gay gamer as well as the straight one? Should there be an option in EVERY game to include a gay character? I'd say your sense of entitlement at least equals mine. When an author writes a book and he writes his characters straight, do you feel neglected? No.

As much as you think I have missed your point, I haven't at all. The sense of entitlement comes with the territory, majority rules and all that. It's just the way it is, the fact that you may never have experienced that isn't something I can do anything about.

Regardless of what you may think, however, I don't feel I am ENTITLED to have a non-gay charcter in the game, I just feel as though the content that was created throughout 2 games shouldn't be shat all over for the sake of appeasing the odd gay guy and totally changing the backstory of existing characters. I swear, if you relate the analogy of putting £20 in an envelope and selling it to a guy for £10 to this arguement you will see a clear correlation to the gay gamer.

"We want a same sex romance!  "No problem, we'll include one!" "But wait, it HAS to be with a previously straight character or we aren't happy?"

Anyway, we could rabbit on forever but either way nothing we say at this point will change the outcome of the game, so I guess we'll just wait and see. Also I've just started playing Arcanum and I wanna get back to it, cba to keep the debate going, lol.

[lawp79]

SennenScale wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I'm tired of the Schrodinger's Sexuality argument. Look, we won't know if the cat is bisexual until we open the box, ok? But we can listen to the scratching and make some guesses. Also, we can all be murdered by radioactive zombie cats. It's not an exact science.

That said, it's possible to know someone for a very long time and not have their bisexuality come up. I'm not saying that it's likely, I'm saying that it's possible. Can we all just agree "unlikely, but possible, won't know until we open the box." and move on?

Sorry for rehasing. Thread goes nowhere fast sometimes.

I know we can make educated guesses. But people just keep treating their guesses as absolute infallible, sacred canon and it just isn't. It is an educated guess that usually pans out, but it doesn't always.

I'd like to move on myself, but the "they've shown interest in a woman before so making them bi is a retcon" or "I will rage because they don't ping my gaydar" keeps getting brought up.

EDIT:Spelling errors. Why am I OCD about it? Oh well.

I think this one sentence really puts a pin in this. ME is an RPG shep is whoever the player wants him/her to be.

I just cant grasp why some people on here cant grasp that a gay romance option will be just that, optional! Squad mates are hardly going to arrange a pride march up and down the gangway of the normandy. People need to have more faith in the writers. And also stop making excuses for their own discomfort. My opinion of this community as a whole has gone down these last few days.

[HunterX6]

maybe just maybe Casey Hudson might have turned bi by all these gay fans,lesb and bi's offering their penis and butt as a "wonderful experience" in exchange for gay,lesb and bi relationship in mass effect 3? people should consider that too though I have no proof, just speculating. I dont approve of all the new and disturbing content, but as long as they make it the right way and not like DA2 then I guess it should be less gross and disturbing when I play the game.

Modifié par HunterX6, 18 mai 2011 - 09:07 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

When I complained about the Schrodinger's thing I was trying to be lighthearted, and present the middle path. I don't begrudge either side for arguing when one side claims to be in posession of the absolute truth, I just wish that nobody would claim to be in posession of the absolute truth.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 18 mai 2011 - 09:07 .

[SennenScale]

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

"We want a same sex romance!  "No problem, we'll include one!" "But wait, it HAS to be with a previously straight character or we aren't happy?"

It's been said a million times that people are cool with new characters being BI if they old cannot be.

Please spare us the grief of needing to summarize the thread and read it.

[SilentNukee]

SennenScale wrote...

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

"We want a same sex romance!  "No problem, we'll include one!" "But wait, it HAS to be with a previously straight character or we aren't happy?"

It's been said a million times that people are cool with new characters being BI if they old cannot be.

Please spare us the grief of needing to summarize the thread and read it.

No one ever said they were straight to begin with, no matter what excuse you'd like to share. (Except for Jack.) I personally want s/s romance with old and new squaddies. (I absolutely love the idea of FemShep + Tali) 2-3 options for s/s romance would be a good number.
People just need to stop worrying and trust the writers.

Modifié par SilentNukee, 18 mai 2011 - 09:10 .

[lawp79]

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

Augoeides wrote...

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

And you regard the DA2 romances as a success? Lol...you just lost a lot of credibility right there. They were paperweight and completely tacked on. Appeal to the masses, lose the heart of the core experience.

ME's romances are so much more involving, so much so that they spread across 3 games. Anyway, I'm done with this. We'll see how the chips fall, I just hope Bioware doesn't kowtow too much to a desperately small minority.

Now, I never said that, in fact, you missed my point entirely. What I am saying is that you're buying into a sense of entitlement and privilege and that you have no more right to a certain type of romance than any other group. Majority or minority be damned, you have no rights to any content that isn't explicitly (in technical detail) promised in the game.

(in technical detail) clarification: Promises of 'engrossing story' aren't real promises, just promotion.

And by that same token, what is it that gives you the right to feel entitled to have a certain romance type in the game? Simply because there are currently straight romances? If that were the case then should EVERY game be unabashedly catering for the gay gamer as well as the straight one? Should there be an option in EVERY game to include a gay character? I'd say your sense of entitlement at least equals mine. When an author writes a book and he writes his characters straight, do you feel neglected? No.

As much as you think I have missed your point, I haven't at all. The sense of entitlement comes with the territory, majority rules and all that. It's just the way it is, the fact that you may never have experienced that isn't something I can do anything about.

Regardless of what you may think, however, I don't feel I am ENTITLED to have a non-gay charcter in the game, I just feel as though the content that was created throughout 2 games shouldn't be shat all over for the sake of appeasing the odd gay guy and totally changing the backstory of existing characters. I swear, if you relate the analogy of putting £20 in an envelope and selling it to a guy for £10 to this arguement you will see a clear correlation to the gay gamer.

"We want a same sex romance!  "No problem, we'll include one!" "But wait, it HAS to be with a previously straight character or we aren't happy?"

Anyway, we could rabbit on forever but either way nothing we say at this point will change the outcome of the game, so I guess we'll just wait and see. Also I've just started playing Arcanum and I wanna get back to it, cba to keep the debate going, lol.

Ok so what about Tali and Garrus, niether was ever going to be a romance option but do to the demand of some fans they became an option in 2. Did it spoil the characters that they were opened up to the option of a romance? I think most would argue not.

[KawaiiKatie]

SennenScale wrote...

KawaiiKatie wrote...
lawl, I think they call that the "Zevran knife." Or if they don't they should.

"Bisexual male character? Oh, I'll just knife him in the throat / leave him on Virmire so I don't have to deal with it."

Okay, yeah, now I'm convinced that the phrase "Zevran knife" should be an official trope or something. I'm really amused by it.

I think it's called Bury Your Gays?

Sad that they'll kill him over it, and yet amusing that people get so worked up about it as to kill him.

How do they even do it? I can't bear to kill a party member!

But... that's when the plot kills off a gay couple, not when the player kills off a gay character just so that he/she won't have to interact with gay, see gay, or hear gay. Need to cleanse your game of gay? Apply the Zevran Knife!

I vote that it gets its own trope. It is, after all, a very special catagory all its own.

[SennenScale]

SilentNukee wrote...
People just need to stop worrying and trust the writers.

Yep. I mean, I've had disappointments from Bioware, but hell, I've never played a Bioware game that I didn't enjoy. I didn't like ME2 at first but I love it now, for example.

[JamesMoriarty123]

KawaiiKatie wrote...
I vote that it gets its own trope. It is, after all, a very special catagory all its own.

See my original post.

[JamesMoriarty123]

SennenScale wrote...

SilentNukee wrote...
People just need to stop worrying and trust the writers.

Yep. I mean, I've had disappointments from Bioware, but hell, I've never played a Bioware game that I didn't enjoy. I didn't like ME2 at first but I love it now, for example.

The only game to disappoint me was DA2. It was rediculously bad. The ME team haven't let down in the past, I doubt they will with the finale. Still, it makes me concerned when they start adding things in just to please a certain group of people, because then you're making your game around the fans, not around how you envisage the game to be. 

Which is basically why DA2 sucked so badly, too much fan input got them all twisted. I'd sooner have a game that's Marmite (for non-english types, you either LOVE Marmite, or you HATE it) than a game where everyone "kinda enjoyed it".

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Honestly, there's no reason to believe that they didn't mean to have same sex romances in ME1, especially considering there are soundfiles for ManShep talking to Kaidan during romance dialogue, it's possible that they just ran out of time in ME1, or couldn't figure out how to do it exactly as they wanted to, so the feature got cut.

Based on the fact that this was announced only after ME3 got more time, I'd say there's absolutely no reason to assume that this wasn't intended from the start, and this is just the first time they've had sufficient development time available to include the feature.

[SilentNukee]

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

SennenScale wrote...

SilentNukee wrote...
People just need to stop worrying and trust the writers.

Yep. I mean, I've had disappointments from Bioware, but hell, I've never played a Bioware game that I didn't enjoy. I didn't like ME2 at first but I love it now, for example.

The only game to disappoint me was DA2. It was rediculously bad. The ME team haven't let down in the past, I doubt they will with the finale. Still, it makes me concerned when they start adding things in just to please a certain group of people, because then you're making your game around the fans, not around how you envisage the game to be. 

Which is basically why DA2 sucked so badly, too much fan input got them all twisted. I'd sooner have a game that's Marmite (for non-english types, you either LOVE Marmite, or you HATE it) than a game where everyone "kinda enjoyed it".

Ughh...Sigh.
DA and ME teams are completely different. This game will be loved by EVERONE, because the ME team will make sure of it.
Also, Tali + Garrus romance was added because of fanbase. That didn't turn out bad at all, did it? 

[lawp79]

I lol'd at Nigel fishnchips, whats all that about?

[SilentNukee]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Honestly, there's no reason to believe that they didn't mean to have same sex romances in ME1, especially considering there are soundfiles for ManShep talking to Kaidan during romance dialogue, it's possible that they just ran out of time in ME1, or couldn't figure out how to do it exactly as they wanted to, so the feature got cut.

Based on the fact that this was announced only after ME3 got more time, I'd say there's absolutely no reason to assume that this wasn't intended from the start, and this is just the first time they've had sufficient development time available to include the feature.

Apparently they did run out of time for s/s in both ME1 and ME2, but the audio files are hidden there. It might just be an excuse though, who knows.

Modifié par SilentNukee, 18 mai 2011 - 09:22 .