6696 réponses à ce sujet

[Centauri2002]

STG wrote...

I swear, if ME3 includes gay romance but doesn't include mouse sensitivity on PC I'm officially done with Bioware.

Same sex romance has been in the game from the beginning. Why weren't you done before? >.>

[paptschik]

The Uncanny wrote...

paptschik wrote...

But to be fair, the ever popular "They never said they weren't bi" argument isn't that great either.

It isn't?

*scratches head*

Sounds pretty reasonable to me.

It's not exactly easy to prove a negative...

It isn't, because "it has not been stated" is the most simple "proof" for anything. It is a fairly generic excuse in my opinion.
It is of course true, it is not "wrong". But it would also not be wrong to say, that so far we have no proof, that Grunt is in love with Legion.
To me, is a sign of changing things late to the party because you didn't think about it early. If "they never said otherwise" is the explanation, it feels forced and, in a way, lazy. Which is especially ridiculous, given that BW DID plan it. They could have worked it into the game, even if not as a fully developed romance in the previous games.
Of course the Bioware writers could come up with better reasons and I
have actually read decent reasons here for some characters, mostly
Ashley and Kaiden, so of course it is possible, but the general excuse of
"they never said they weren't bi"...yeah, sorry, but I just hate
explanations like that, no matter for which side.

[paptschik]

iriotboy wrote...

I'm pretty sure this same sex romance thing is ONLY for females who romance Asari. I aaw articles on the internet saying that the s/s was in ME1 and then in ME2 after the Liara DLC. Then I saw that it was not available for male Shepards. So I think bioware is giving everyone false hopes if you're looking to romance someone like Ashley with your female Shepard.

For the record, ME2 had Kelly.

[Augoeides]

Valcutio wrote...

More pandering to the 3-4% and alienating (pun intended) of the vast majority? Score another success like DA2 for Bioware! /sarcasm

BTW, I think it's time people started letter-writing campaigns to EA shareholders. Hit them in their wallets and maybe they'll focus on their priorities again.

I think you severly underestimate how many people would pursue the option; I know for a fact that if we assume 4-10% of the fan base is homosexual but then add 14-20% for bisexuals and then another 6% for the heterosexuals who would use the feature you have 24% of the community. That's just under a quarter of the fanbase factoring in the lowest of the estimated values I presented and I think those values are understatementsof the real numbers.

Naturally if you were ever in the quarter of a fan base that was vying for something and then someone from the 75% who had already gotten what they want in previous games and will so in the current game told you, in as many words, that what you wanted was not important, wouldn't you find that a little rude and/or ****-ish. I do not presume you to be so impartial as to be able to think so rationally in statistics when you're in the minority.

Modifié par Augoeides, 18 mai 2011 - 01:44 .

[Marta Rio]

Illeuad wrote...

I can easily see Kaidan admitting to having feelings for M!Shep, that tirade he comes up with in ME2 seems very emotion fuelled.

Shep practically ripped through and changed his life in ME1, then disappeared for 3 years. I definitely think soul searching and dwelling on Shep for all that time could definitely allow Kaidan to realise feelings for his old commander.

Of course, the M|M interest could just be a new team member .That or Samara has a surprise peen. lol.

Does Kaidan say the "losing a limb" line regardless of Shep's gender?  (I think he's only been alive in my FemShep playthroughs.)  If so I don't think it's much of a stretch to have him reveal feelings for ManShep in ME3.

[paptschik]

Augoeides wrote...

paptschik wrote...

HolyMoogle wrote...

Oh please.

The quality of the arguments against S/S romances and/or existing characters revealing more about themselves is enough to make anybody run screaming for the nearest all-night shirtless-friendly house music club

But to be fair, the ever popular "They never said they weren't bi" argument isn't that great either.

As I have mentioned before I think it's an argument with more clout for some characters more than others, for example, the cut content of ME1 concerning Kaidan that, had it been included, would have made him a bi option means such a statement of 'not knowing' is mostly a defense against those who claim a character's heterosexuality beyond a doubt.

The not knowing argument on, say, Garrus, who has shown no inclination towards men either in game or in cut content, is stretched pretty thin.

So I agree with you in some respects.

See, the cut content is part of the reason why I think...okay, I can see Kaiden.
Of course, it seems Tali and Thane were also planned to be bi and while I can see Thane, reading this about Tali just had me go "Wait what? Really?".
And I'm not even sure what it is about a character that makes me think that...I mean, I like Tali for many reasons I and other fanboys like Merrill in DA2...and I love Merrill as the love interest for me FemHawke, so..yeah, I don't know. It's mostly a preference thing with me and depends on the characters.

[Augoeides]

Marta Rio wrote...

Illeuad wrote...

I can easily see Kaidan admitting to having feelings for M!Shep, that tirade he comes up with in ME2 seems very emotion fuelled.

Shep practically ripped through and changed his life in ME1, then disappeared for 3 years. I definitely think soul searching and dwelling on Shep for all that time could definitely allow Kaidan to realise feelings for his old commander.

Of course, the M|M interest could just be a new team member .That or Samara has a surprise peen. lol.

Does Kaidan say the "losing a limb" line regardless of Shep's gender?  (I think he's only been alive in my FemShep playthroughs.)  If so I don't think it's much of a stretch to have him reveal feelings for ManShep in ME3.

Yes, with enough sap to preserve mosquitoes filled with dino blood thus setting the stage for one man's dream of a theme park with real dinosaurs.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

paptschik wrote...
It isn't, because "it has not been stated" is the most simple "proof" for anything. It is a fairly generic excuse in my opinion.
It is of course true, it is not "wrong". But it would also not be wrong to say, that so far we have no proof, that Grunt is in love with Legion.
To me, is a sign of changing things late to the party because you didn't think about it early. If "they never said otherwise" is the explanation, it feels forced and, in a way, lazy. Which is especially ridiculous, given that BW DID plan it. They could have worked it into the game, even if not as a fully developed romance in the previous games.
Of course the Bioware writers could come up with better reasons and I
have actually read decent reasons here for some characters, mostly
Ashley and Kaiden, so of course it is possible, but the general excuse of
"they never said they weren't bi"...yeah, sorry, but I just hate
explanations like that, no matter for which side.

Your problem is that you think a person's sexuality needs an explanation.  It doesn't.  It just is.
"They never said they weren't bi" is the simple fact that makes it believable; it's not an "explanation".  Sexuality needs no explanation.
It's a passive part of who they are and they don't need to drop hints or approach differently gendered love interests in the exact same way in order to be bisexual.

And Grunt may well be in love with Legion.  If the writers decide to go that route then you should at least wait and see how they wrote it before saying it's stupid.

[paptschik]

Augoeides wrote...

Valcutio wrote...

More pandering to the 3-4% and alienating (pun intended) of the vast majority? Score another success like DA2 for Bioware! /sarcasm

BTW, I think it's time people started letter-writing campaigns to EA shareholders. Hit them in their wallets and maybe they'll focus on their priorities again.

I think you severly underestimate how many people would pursue the option; I know for a fact that if assume 4-10% of the fan base is homosexual but then add 15-20% for bisexuals and then another 6% for the heterosexuals who would use the feature you have 24% of the community. That's just under a quarter of the fanbase and factoring in the lowest of the estimated values I presented and I think those values are understatementsof the real numbers.

Naturally if you were ever in the quarter of a fan base that was vying for something and then someone from the 75% who had already gotten what they want in previous games and will so in the current game told you, in as many words, that what you wanted was not important, wouldn't you find that a little rude and/or ****-ish. I do not presume you to be so impartial as to be able to think so rationally in statistics when you're in the minority.

Not to be offensive, but I think you vastly overestimate the number of people that would go for it. 24% seems a bit much. (I would and did, but that always depends on the character)

[Marta Rio]

paptschik wrote...

Of course, it seems Tali and Thane were also planned to be bi and while I can see Thane, reading this about Tali just had me go "Wait what? Really?".

When I read that about Tali, I was like, "Oh that makes perfect sense," due to all that awkward talk about suit linking and stuff, and Tali's clear obsession with Shep.  On the other hand, I didn't realize they had planned to make Thane bi, due to all his talk about his dead wife.

I guess everyone has their own perception of their favorite characters at this point.

[Centauri2002]

paptschik wrote...

Not to be offensive, but I think you vastly overestimate the number of people that would go for it. 24% seems a bit much. (I would and did, but that always depends on the character)

It's unknown who will actually end up using these options. However, we've seen poll results that show those who approve or simply don't care about same sex romances in the game vastly outnumber those who disapprove of them. I think that says enough. And yet, I'm willing to compromise and have it so those who are uncomfortable with it won't blindly stumble across the same sex romances. I don't consider them unimportant because they're in the minority.

[paptschik]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

paptschik wrote...
It isn't, because "it has not been stated" is the most simple "proof" for anything. It is a fairly generic excuse in my opinion.
It is of course true, it is not "wrong". But it would also not be wrong to say, that so far we have no proof, that Grunt is in love with Legion.
To me, is a sign of changing things late to the party because you didn't think about it early. If "they never said otherwise" is the explanation, it feels forced and, in a way, lazy. Which is especially ridiculous, given that BW DID plan it. They could have worked it into the game, even if not as a fully developed romance in the previous games.
Of course the Bioware writers could come up with better reasons and I
have actually read decent reasons here for some characters, mostly
Ashley and Kaiden, so of course it is possible, but the general excuse of
"they never said they weren't bi"...yeah, sorry, but I just hate
explanations like that, no matter for which side.

Your problem is that you think a person's sexuality needs an explanation.  It doesn't.  It just is.
"They never said they weren't bi" is the simple fact that makes it believable; it's not an "explanation".  Sexuality needs no explanation.
It's a passive part of who they are and they don't need to drop hints or approach differently gendered love interests in the exact same way in order to be bisexual.

And Grunt may well be in love with Legion.  If the writers decide to go that route then you should at least wait and see how they wrote it before saying it's stupid.

But it's a story in which romances are a big and interactive part. When it comes to that, yes, I think any and all attractions and interests could do with some explanation/hints etc....I don't like things to always just "be", I like it when they build towards it, especially if a reveal only follows in the last third of the story.
This has nothing to do with sexuality in reality.

[Augoeides]

paptschik wrote...

Augoeides wrote...

Valcutio wrote...

More pandering to the 3-4% and alienating (pun intended) of the vast majority? Score another success like DA2 for Bioware! /sarcasm

BTW, I think it's time people started letter-writing campaigns to EA shareholders. Hit them in their wallets and maybe they'll focus on their priorities again.

I think you severly underestimate how many people would pursue the option; I know for a fact that if assume 4-10% of the fan base is homosexual but then add 15-20% for bisexuals and then another 6% for the heterosexuals who would use the feature you have 24% of the community. That's just under a quarter of the fanbase and factoring in the lowest of the estimated values I presented and I think those values are understatementsof the real numbers.

Naturally if you were ever in the quarter of a fan base that was vying for something and then someone from the 75% who had already gotten what they want in previous games and will so in the current game told you, in as many words, that what you wanted was not important, wouldn't you find that a little rude and/or ****-ish. I do not presume you to be so impartial as to be able to think so rationally in statistics when you're in the minority.

Not to be offensive, but I think you vastly overestimate the number of people that would go for it. 24% seems a bit much. (I would and did, but that always depends on the character)

That's a fair claim. Perhaps my numbers are off, but I reckon anything exceeding 10% is a big enough number especially if we instead assume 4% of players will like it and are gay, 4% will like it and are bisexual, and 4% will like it and are heterosexual that = 12%.

Now I think the numbers of homosexualsin the world  is severly underestimated, period. So let's assume 6% are gay and will go for it.

14%

More than 4% of players are bisexual and will have some potential  use for it, so let's bump them up to 6% as well.

16%

Still a pretty large number and I would be campaigning for heterosexual romance if they made a Gay only Bioware game, regardless of what percent that equaled.

[STG]

centauri2002 wrote...

STG wrote...

I swear, if ME3 includes gay romance but doesn't include mouse sensitivity on PC I'm officially done with Bioware.

Same sex romance has been in the game from the beginning. Why weren't you done before? >.>

ME had mouse sensitivity in options. ME2 didn't, but it did have 6 available romances. Maybe it got overlooked or developers were just lazy, I don't know. Which is why if Bioware continues this trend, I'm done with them.

Providing most basic options to PC gamers shouldn't be more difficult than providing gay gamers with romance options.

[paptschik]

Marta Rio wrote...

paptschik wrote...

Of course, it seems Tali and Thane were also planned to be bi and while I can see Thane, reading this about Tali just had me go "Wait what? Really?".

When I read that about Tali, I was like, "Oh that makes perfect sense," due to all that awkward talk about suit linking and stuff, and Tali's clear obsession with Shep.  On the other hand, I didn't realize they had planned to make Thane bi, due to all his talk about his dead wife.

I guess everyone has their own perception of their favorite characters at this point.

They do. Which of course makes it perfectly okay for people to not like/want things in the story and for them to like/want things in the story. Having Garrus or Tali or Kaiden or anyone be bi is not wrong. It just is not what I would want.
I hated Anders in DA2 (mostly because of the end of the game, but I generally don't like depression-Anders...I wanted Fun-Anders back throughout the game), but there are reasons for him to be the way he is in the game and some people liked it. Good for them. But I can say I would've enjoyed the game more had it not been that way.

[paptschik]

Nyoka wrote...

centauri2002 wrote...

STG wrote...

I swear, if ME3 includes gay romance but doesn't include mouse sensitivity on PC I'm officially done with Bioware.

Same sex romance has been in the game from the beginning. Why weren't you done before? >.>

The media has made hawt lesbians okay. Gay men is what's terrifying.

Unless you're in the anime community. Then hetero males are just the weird ones obviously hiding something.

[paptschik]

centauri2002 wrote...

paptschik wrote...

Not to be offensive, but I think you vastly overestimate the number of people that would go for it. 24% seems a bit much. (I would and did, but that always depends on the character)

It's unknown who will actually end up using these options. However, we've seen poll results that show those who approve or simply don't care about same sex romances in the game vastly outnumber those who disapprove of them. I think that says enough. And yet, I'm willing to compromise and have it so those who are uncomfortable with it won't blindly stumble across the same sex romances. I don't consider them unimportant because they're in the minority.

Oh, I'm not saying they should be ignored....but I think taking everything into account (and not polls on websites), the minority would be smaller than we think.

[TheChris92]

As stated before. It's like people always needs a clear explanation, for every character's sexuality. A certain character or person's sexuality can certainly change, and in the case of the first Mass Effect's characters. There never was an explanation, and nothing that truly defined it. Why should there be? These things happen, and we are cut up in the storm. Let's wait and see how the writers chooses to approach it, then judge it based upon what we've played.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

paptschik wrote...
But it's a story in which romances are a big and interactive part. When it comes to that, yes, I think any and all attractions and interests could do with some explanation/hints etc....I don't like things to always just "be", I like it when they build towards it, especially if a reveal only follows in the last third of the story.
This has nothing to do with sexuality in reality.

No, the romances are a tiny portion of the game.  If not having enough buildup is the problem then you should have a problem with every single romance BioWare has ever done, since all the romances are built up and confined to that one game.

So ME3's LI, even if some of them are the previous LI's, should be perfectly acceptable with only one game's buildup.  They can build up reasons why Ashley didn't want femShep in ME1 rather easily.  Some bisexuals treat their gender attractions differently.  Some are more hesitant with or lean more towards a specific gender.

That's just how it is.  There's no reason to say that they "must" drop hints that they were bisexual in order for it to be believable or realistic.  Life doesn't work that way; people don't work that way; and if you have a problem with it then it is quite simply a problem of your own creation.

[Centauri2002]

STG wrote...

ME had mouse sensitivity in options. ME2 didn't, but it did have 6 available romances. Maybe it got overlooked or developers were just lazy, I don't know. Which is why if Bioware continues this trend, I'm done with them.

Providing most basic options to PC gamers shouldn't be more difficult than providing gay gamers with romance options.

I fail to see how they're even remotely similar. That would be like me saying... "BioWare, if you offer a helmet toggle in ME3 and no m/m romances, I'm never buying another of your games!" 

Have you complained about the fact that they're offering weapon customisability in ME3 but there's no mention of mouse sensitivity options? 

Besides, it's early days yet and there's still a lot of development time and announcements to be made. If you really care so much about mouse sensitivity options then go make a thread on this forum about it. Get your opinion heard. Threatening to raegquit because you're not getting what you want but others are isn't going to get any improvements added. 

I happen to think that PC players should have sensitivity options in the menu, but I don't understand how it's related to same sex romances at all.

[ElitePinecone]

DecCylonus wrote...

What I want for a "new" option is to continue an established relationship. I have characters with Ashley and characters with Miranda. I want to see those relationships develop more, instead of having to go through the "I like you, do you like me?" bit for a third time. Dragon Age: Origins did a good job of developing the relationships beyond that initial stage. I want to see the same in Mass Effect 3.

You'll get the deepening, and more.

The "Ohai, I like you, do you like me?" is only for players who are beginning a new romance in ME3 (of whatever form - old or new character, same-sex or opposite-sex).

Players who import existing romances from ME/ME2 have been promised much deeper content and dialogue. The game will recognise that long history; it won't assume you're starting over again. 

[paptschik]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

paptschik wrote...
But it's a story in which romances are a big and interactive part. When it comes to that, yes, I think any and all attractions and interests could do with some explanation/hints etc....I don't like things to always just "be", I like it when they build towards it, especially if a reveal only follows in the last third of the story.
This has nothing to do with sexuality in reality.

No, the romances are a tiny portion of the game.  If not having enough buildup is the problem then you should have a problem with every single romance BioWare has ever done, since all the romances are built up and confined to that one game.

So ME3's LI, even if some of them are the previous LI's, should be perfectly acceptable with only one game's buildup.  They can build up reasons why Ashley didn't want femShep in ME1 rather easily.  Some bisexuals treat their gender attractions differently.  Some are more hesitant with or lean more towards a specific gender.

That's just how it is.  There's no reason to say that they "must" drop hints that they were bisexual in order for it to be believable or realistic.  Life doesn't work that way; people don't work that way; and if you have a problem with it then it is quite simply a problem of your own creation.

Again...what has life to do with this? It is a story....I want to seperate the two.
And yes, if there are reasons within the game, good. But we weren't talking about that. I said that because of reasons posted here in thread I'm beginning to see how certain characters could be bi. It's just I like explanations beyond "it is, why the hell not?" and for a part of the game I and many others like, value and obviously care a great deal about, why would I not hope for things to be better and more complex than just "that's how it is, take it or leave it".

And frankly, I do find the bioware romances to be not as good as they could be most of the time and hope they will be better in ME3.

And I feel the need to note, that all this I say is meant to be a lot less aggressive (namely not at all) than I fear you may interpret it as.

[snfonseka]

Even though Casey said otherwise, I have a feeling that most popular LI characters will be bi-sexual in ME3.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

paptschik wrote...
Again...what has life to do with this? It is a story....I want to seperate the two.
And yes, if there are reasons within the game, good. But we weren't talking about that. I said that because of reasons posted here in thread I'm beginning to see how certain characters could be bi. It's just I like explanations beyond "it is, why the hell not?" and for a part of the game I and many others like, value and obviously care a great deal about, why would I not hope for things to be better and more complex than just "that's how it is, take it or leave it".

And frankly, I do find the bioware romances to be not as good as they could be most of the time and hope they will be better in ME3.

And I feel the need to note, that all this I say is meant to be a lot less aggressive (namely not at all) than I fear you may interpret it as.

No, i don't think you're aggressive at all.  I've been around long enough to know the difference between aggressive hand-waving and contemplative objections.

I was merely arguing in favor of the "they were always bi; they just didn't express that to Shepard" explanation because it's a damned good explanation.  If it happened in reality then nobody would question it.  I fail to see the logic in demanding that a fictional work have more explanation than the reality it is meant to mimic.  That is, outside of explaining the actual game mechanics since it is, after all, a videogame.