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[Phaelducan]

SennenScale wrote...

Abispa wrote...

What's your persuasion if you romance LEGION?

Robosexual with a dash of selfcest, if you consider that he made your armor a part of him?

Heh, did you play Fallout: New Vegas? Fisto comes to mind.

[hex23]

And for the record if Asari were considered "sexually male" according to the Codex and male Shep slept with one, I wouldn't consider that gay either. Why? Because again, it's an alien and you can't really apply human sexuality terms to the situation.

[ReallyRue]

Oh, I'm delighted to see that there are m/m and f/f options in ME3! Thank you Bioware, my Sheps need no longer be forever alone.

[Servo to the bitter end]

PMC65 wrote...

SennenScale wrote...

hex23 wrote...


You're gay because you find the same sex attractive. Whether or not you acted on it yet is irrelevant.

So then, the lack of Shepard pursuing a male love interest before would be irrelevant to whether he could be gay or not.

Therefore, adding the option to ME3 isn't contradicting anything.

I saw what you just did there .... BRILLIANT!

See? More consistency! That's what everyone wants, right?

[SennenScale]

PMC65 wrote...

SennenScale wrote...

hex23 wrote...
You're gay because you find the same sex attractive. Whether or not you acted on it yet is irrelevant.

So then, the lack of Shepard pursuing a male love interest before would be irrelevant to whether he could be gay or not.
Therefore, adding the option to ME3 isn't contradicting anything.

I saw what you just did there .... BRILLIANT!

I try my best. Yet I still haven't gotten an answer. *sigh*

[ipgd]

hex23 wrote...

ipgd wrote...

So if you're a gay man living in a hick town in Alabama where you have no chance of getting any, you're actually straight.

You obviously missed the part where I said "finding the same sex attractive".

That's what the keyword gay implies?

There's nothing in the game that suggests male Shepard couldn't be attracted to Kaidan, Jacob, Thane, or Garrus, just that none of them are attracted to him.

[Cootie]

So, apparently, female/female matchings are no longer homosexual, even though the two partners are of the same sex. o.o

Wow.

[Phaelducan]

hex23 wrote...

And for the record if Asari were considered "sexually male" according to the Codex and male Shep slept with one, I wouldn't consider that gay either. Why? Because again, it's an alien and you can't really apply human sexuality terms to the situation.

Shrug, I hear what you are saying, but I disagree. "Sleeping with them" would imply a physical attraction. It's not just the bond at that point.

[SennenScale]

Phaelducan wrote...

SennenScale wrote...

Abispa wrote...
What's your persuasion if you romance LEGION?

Robosexual with a dash of selfcest, if you consider that he made your armor a part of him?

Heh, did you play Fallout: New Vegas? Fisto comes to mind.

Yep. T'was a hell of a surprise when he wanted to ...er...test it out.

Hilarious, too.

[Phaelducan]

ipgd wrote...

hex23 wrote...

ipgd wrote...

So if you're a gay man living in a hick town in Alabama where you have no chance of getting any, you're actually straight.

You obviously missed the part where I said "finding the same sex attractive".

That's what the keyword gay implies?

There's nothing in the game that suggests male Shepard couldn't be attracted to Kaidan, Jacob, Thane, or Garrus, just that none of them are attracted to him.

Again, you are metagaming. Bioware would not have programmed lesbian = ok and gay = not ok. Male shep was not gay at the time of ME1 and ME2. If he was, the option would have been there, period. It's not an omission on the behalf of the programmers. No whoops moment here. If it was so, it would be coded, period.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Phaelducan wrote...

ipgd wrote...

hex23 wrote...

makenzieshepard wrote...


Well FU*K since I haven't slept with anyone, much less a women yet I guess I'm not a real lesbian, guess I came out of the closet to my mom for nothing then:blink:.  Don't know what she'll say about this development



The Insane Troll Logic in this thread is giving me a migraine.

Is a male virgin gay because he hasn't had sex with a woman? Hell no.

You're gay because you find the same sex attractive. Whether or not you acted on it yet is irrelevant.

In the "ME" series the option wasn't even open to you, until the 3rd game. So you could pretend your Shep was gay, but for all intents and purposes he wasn't, either by his actions or interaction with other characters.

So if you're a gay man living in a hick town in Alabama where you have no chance of getting any, you're actually straight.

Shepard not having the option to pursue an m/m romance in ME1 or 2 says nothing about Shepard's sexuality. It just means none of the male romance options were gay or bisexual. He could easily be crying himself to sleep at night with his hand and a tub of astroglide.

That's meta-gaming. Given Bioware's proclivity for programming homosexuality into their recent games (lesbian shep in ME1 included) one can only logically assume that male shep was not meant to be gay at the time of ME1 or ME2. I am really trying to be open minded to the debate in general, but this is a stumbling block that I think will alienate those who think along the lines which I do (which is that gay-m/m shep in ME3 is foolish and a mistake).

He was not always gay, or he would have been able to pursue Kaidan. Stop reading more into the scenario that was there. It's simple programming.

By this reasoning, Manshep can't have always been interested in Tali, or he'd have the option to hit on her in ME1. Bioware was worried that people would find alien sex disconcerting, so they didn't put that in in the first game. In the second, circumstances lead to Tali giving Shepard an "opening" to bring it up if Shepard is a man. Same thing with Femshep and Garrus... in ME1, even if she's interested in Turians, they just met and she might have plenty of reason to think that Garrus would think hitting on him is "weird." In ME2 they're closer and he gives her an opportunity to bring it up. You can't even romance him in ME2 if you didn't recruit him in ME1, because it takes more time to build the kind of relationship where you can suggest cross-species turian sex with a guy.

The reason Manshep can't hit on any guy in ME1 or ME2 could be simply because nobody seemed like they would be up for it. Contrary to what you seem to be implying, many gay people will not hit on someone they think is "probably straight." So if Shepard just assumed Kaidan was straight in ME1, he wouldn't have hit on him.

This is why my preferred thing is to just make Nigel Fishnchips outright gay (not available to femsheps), and have him be the new love interest. Then it would make perfect sense for Shepard to hit on the first person who gives him any 'signals.' Of course, I am a femshep who likes Nigel, so I'm willing to give up on a promising love interest just to get some realistic portrayals of sexuality up in here.

Yeah, I'm a giver.

[Siansonea]

Phaelducan wrote...

ipgd wrote...

hex23 wrote...

makenzieshepard wrote...


Well FU*K since I haven't slept with anyone, much less a women yet I guess I'm not a real lesbian, guess I came out of the closet to my mom for nothing then:blink:.  Don't know what she'll say about this development



The Insane Troll Logic in this thread is giving me a migraine.

Is a male virgin gay because he hasn't had sex with a woman? Hell no.

You're gay because you find the same sex attractive. Whether or not you acted on it yet is irrelevant.

In the "ME" series the option wasn't even open to you, until the 3rd game. So you could pretend your Shep was gay, but for all intents and purposes he wasn't, either by his actions or interaction with other characters.

So if you're a gay man living in a hick town in Alabama where you have no chance of getting any, you're actually straight.

Shepard not having the option to pursue an m/m romance in ME1 or 2 says nothing about Shepard's sexuality. It just means none of the male romance options were gay or bisexual. He could easily be crying himself to sleep at night with his hand and a tub of astroglide.

That's meta-gaming. Given Bioware's proclivity for programming homosexuality into their recent games (lesbian shep in ME1 included) one can only logically assume that male shep was not meant to be gay at the time of ME1 or ME2. I am really trying to be open minded to the debate in general, but this is a stumbling block that I think will alienate those who think along the lines which I do (which is that gay-m/m shep in ME3 is foolish and a mistake).

He was not always gay, or he would have been able to pursue Kaidan. Stop reading more into the scenario that was there. It's simple programming. 

"One can only logically conclude"? You must be REALLY bad at math.  Maybe BioWare didn't want KAIDAN to be bisexual. Maybe they didn't want JACOB to be bisexual. If anyone is reading more into the scenario, it's you. There are a number of interpretations that can be drawn from these facts, not a single one that "one can only logically conclude" because it happens to agree with your opinion. 

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Phaelducan wrote...

ipgd wrote...

hex23 wrote...

ipgd wrote...

So if you're a gay man living in a hick town in Alabama where you have no chance of getting any, you're actually straight.

You obviously missed the part where I said "finding the same sex attractive".

That's what the keyword gay implies?

There's nothing in the game that suggests male Shepard couldn't be attracted to Kaidan, Jacob, Thane, or Garrus, just that none of them are attracted to him.

Again, you are metagaming. Bioware would not have programmed lesbian = ok and gay = not ok. Male shep was not gay at the time of ME1 and ME2. If he was, the option would have been there, period. It's not an omission on the behalf of the programmers. No whoops moment here. If it was so, it would be coded, period.

By that justification, ME1 Shepard was not interested in non-asari aliens. Shepard was not Xeno in ME1, if he had been there would have been an option to sleep with Garrus and Tali in ME1. Since there wasn't, by your reasoning no shepard in ME2 can legitimately like Tali or Garrus.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 18 mai 2011 - 09:27 .

[TheMarshal]

Captain_Obvious wrote...

I'm happy with this development, or at least a couple of my Shepards will be. I knew you could do it, Bioware. Now how about our uber-collector's edition of 1-3? With all of the "redacted" content, if you please.

I would pay $$$ for that!  Especially since I wasn't "around" for the Collector's editions of ME1/ME2.

Legitimate FemShep/Ashleymance?  Yes please!

[hex23]

SennenScale wrote...

So then, the lack of Shepard pursuing a male love interest before would be irrelevant to whether he could be gay or not.

Therefore, adding the option to ME3 isn't contradicting anything.

False. You didn't pursue anyone. Ok, so far so good. Why? Because your character was gay? Um....ok. Being gay wasn't an option in either of the games you played.

Adding the option in 3 doesn't change the fact that it still wasn't possible in the first two games. You not pursuing a male love interest "before" is irrelevant beacuse it couldn't happen.

[Siansonea]

hex23 wrote...

And for the record if Asari were considered "sexually male" according to the Codex and male Shep slept with one, I wouldn't consider that gay either. Why? Because again, it's an alien and you can't really apply human sexuality terms to the situation.

For the record, it still wouldn't qualify as STRAIGHT no matter how NOT GAY you think it is.

[Phaelducan]

SennenScale wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

SennenScale wrote...

Abispa wrote...
What's your persuasion if you romance LEGION?

Robosexual with a dash of selfcest, if you consider that he made your armor a part of him?

Heh, did you play Fallout: New Vegas? Fisto comes to mind.

Yep. T'was a hell of a surprise when he wanted to ...er...test it out.

Hilarious, too.

Yeah, my last off-topic on this subject... but when I saw that I snorted my beer through my nose and I hit the option to try it out. I actually felt awkward, since my followers were Rex and Boone. 

In any case, I think Bethesda and Obsidian both handle the issue of being gay in their games very well. Somebody a few hundred posts back negated my example because you have to be level 2 to pick your first perk, but meh, it's close enough. It's better just to choose an option and have that be your characters sexual orientation (and no, it's not a toggle per se, as your choice affects nobody else... NPC's will be straight or gay as normal regardless of your choice).

[CulturalGeekGirl]

hex23 wrote...

SennenScale wrote...

So then, the lack of Shepard pursuing a male love interest before would be irrelevant to whether he could be gay or not.

Therefore, adding the option to ME3 isn't contradicting anything.

False. You didn't pursue anyone. Ok, so far so good. Why? Because your character was gay? Um....ok. Being gay wasn't an option in either of the games you played.

Adding the option in 3 doesn't change the fact that it still wasn't possible in the first two games. You not pursuing a male love interest "before" is irrelevant beacuse it couldn't happen.

Exactly. You just proved that Male Shepard's sexuality is undefinied.

Because he had no opportunity to hit on guys, not hitting on guys means nothing. Just like a girl who goes to an all girl school and who has never had a boyfriend may or may not be gay or straight. Until you have the opportunity, there's no way to tell.

So the fact that there was no opportunity means we don't know how it would have gone if there was one.

[ipgd]

hex23 wrote...

SennenScale wrote...

So then, the lack of Shepard pursuing a male love interest before would be irrelevant to whether he could be gay or not.

Therefore, adding the option to ME3 isn't contradicting anything.

False. You didn't pursue anyone. Ok, so far so good. Why? Because your character was gay? Um....ok. Being gay wasn't an option in either of the games you played.

Adding the option in 3 doesn't change the fact that it still wasn't possible in the first two games. You not pursuing a male love interest "before" is irrelevant beacuse it couldn't happen.

Having gay sex was not a possibility in ME1 or 2, but being gay or bisexual was. Shepard could express his sexuality by declining to have sex with women :innocent:

Gay men are not automatically straight until the first time they stick it in a dude. If a man is attracted to men and not women, he is gay. Having sex is not a prerequisite of attraction. Reciprocation is not a prerequisite of attraction.

[TheMarshal]

hex23 wrote...

False. You didn't pursue anyone. Ok, so far so good. Why? Because your character was gay? Um....ok. Being gay wasn't an option in either of the games you played.

Adding the option in 3 doesn't change the fact that it still wasn't possible in the first two games. You not pursuing a male love interest "before" is irrelevant beacuse it couldn't happen.

You seem to be confusing homosexuality with acts of homosexuality.

[hex23]

Siansonea II wrote...
For the record, it still wouldn't qualify as STRAIGHT no matter how NOT GAY you think it is.

Sigh....

You obviously still don't get it.

No one cares if him having sex with aliens is straight or gay. Why? Because it's sex with aliens and as such can't be defined by human sexuality terms.

So you can sit there and say "well, it wasn't straight sex!" until the sun burns out, it has nothing to do with anything.

[SennenScale]

Phaelducan wrote...

Again, you are metagaming. Bioware would not have programmed lesbian = ok and gay = not ok. Male shep was not gay at the time of ME1 and ME2. If he was, the option would have been there, period. It's not an omission on the behalf of the programmers. No whoops moment here. If it was so, it would be coded, period.

They recorded the lines for it. Male Shepard had s/s lines.

They recorded S/S lines again in ME2, with male Shepard.

They've been asked why it wasn't included in the final product. They've said it was time constraints, I believe.

[JediMB]

Okay, I would like to apologize if anything I'm replying to has been addressed already. I started writing this reply hours ago, but unfortunately lost my Internet connection... and the thread has grown by at least 10 pages too many for it to be worth reading what I've missed. ^^

Phaelducan wrote...

The reason it's still around is because all the Fight for the Love junkies want to feel validated and self-righteous about their victory.

No, the reason this thread is seeing so much activity is because a group of people who are apparently afraid of catching cooties from the game keep coming in to complain about the decision.

There are plenty of previously active Fight for the Love members who don't even come in here because all the negative **** ruins their moods. They'd like nothing more than to simply come into the thread and actually discuss what they'd like to see in the game, but that is unlikely to happen until it has been allowed to cool down for a while.

SalsaDMA wrote...

-There are people that actively say they
won't purchase the product solely because of this choice. I haven't
heard anyone claim they won't buy a game yet because of the opposite
(ie. people saying they won't buy a game if it doesn't incorporate
homosexual stuff). In this regard, even a neutral standpoint should
acknowledge that the inclusion of the option only serves to cut down on
sales, whatever the actual number may be.

And that's the kind of attitude that prevents progress.

But, really, whose loyalty is worth more to BioWare? That of people who will keep buying their games as long as they're good, or that of people who will refuse to buy the game when a single optional feature they dislike is implemented? And do they want to encourage acceptance and inclusion, or fear and segregation?

That said, I've seen my fair share of people feeling like they were losing faith in BioWare because of how ME2 handled the sexuality issue, but they simply don't make a habit of trying to change minds by resorting to silly threats.

Tantum Dic Verbo wrote...

I think for most of us who don't want to address homosexual themes in our video games, it's more about revulsion than fear or insecurity.   I come by my distaste for the practice of men occupying each others' alimentary canals just as honestly as some do for wanting to occupy said canals.  It doesn't mean that I'm cruising past gay bars in a pickup truck with a 2 X 4, and it certainly doesn't mean I'm afraid it will suddenly seem like a good idea if I see a couple of CGI's moving toward it.

I'll let you in on a little "secret":

Anal sex creeps me out. One might even say I find it disgusting. And that's regardless of the sexes of the participants. (As such I'll never understand why there's so much straight and lesbian anal porn out there.)

That doesn't mean I'm disgusted by people who practice or wish to practice it, though. People are still just people, and I'll keep supporting equal rights for the non-heteronormative. (Also, I'm not afraid of admitting when a guy is hot, even if I'm not personally attracted to him.)

...

...

Okay, to finish my post with something a little more on-topic, I wrote up my opinion on what previous squadmates could work as bisexual love interests in Mass Effect 3...

For Tali, there's, in addition to her awkwardness around FemShep, her suit logs that the Shadow Broker had retrieved. Even with a female Shepard, the logs show her installing/uninstalling the suit's "nerve stimulation" program, and downloading digital books on human courtship and body language. I'm thinking she simply lost her nerve. (Maybe she isn't attracted to Quarian women the way she is to Shepard.)

Jack... now, as much as I'd like for her to be a FemShep romance (I romanced her on my only ManShep playthrough), I'm not so sure that it could be an actual romance. Jack has a history of being used and abused, and utilizing sex as a weapon, and that's probably where the "girlfriends" of the past come in.

Miranda has a decent "excuse" for not showing interest in FemShep in ME2, if it would turn out that she is bisexual. She was obsessed with finding a perfect mate (daddy issues and all) (Shadow Broker logs), but eventually found out that she is unable to bear children. That revelation might be enough for her to discard her ambitions and follow her heart instead, so to speak.

Kelly could possibly be developed as a proper love interest. Many would like to see Ashley being bisexual, what with her hidden dialogue in ME1, but personally I think she's too forward to not have said something if Shepard showed interest in Liara. Some wishful thinking on my part would be Kasumi, but her character wasn't really developed enough to say anything besides that she seems to prefer men.

The thing about Garrus is that he isn't really attracted to humans at all. When a female Shepard asks him about it, he is willing to enter a relationship of sorts simply on account of her character. ManShep didn't even have the option to bring it up, so there was no chance for Garrus to respond. He's a distinct possibility.

Kaidan is my favorite choice. Not because I would play ManShep and romance him myself, but because it's easy to accept. He's not as forward as Ashley, he seemed really hurt by Shepard's disappearing and joining Cerberus in ME2, and he had no way of knowing that a male Shepard might be into him (or men at all). Also, as with Ashley, there's the hidden dialogue in ME1.

Okay, BAM, done.

Modifié par JediMB, 18 mai 2011 - 09:42 .

[hex23]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...



Exactly. You just proved that Male Shepard's sexuality is undefinied.

Because he had no opportunity to hit on guys, not hitting on guys means nothing. Just like a girl who goes to an all girl school and who has never had a boyfriend may or may not be gay or straight. Until you have the opportunity, there's no way to tell.

So the fact that there was no opportunity means we don't know how it would have gone if there was one.

What the hell? Seriously? lol

A girl would know long before her first date what she is attracted to.