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[Phaelducan]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

ipgd wrote...

hex23 wrote...

makenzieshepard wrote...


Well FU*K since I haven't slept with anyone, much less a women yet I guess I'm not a real lesbian, guess I came out of the closet to my mom for nothing then:blink:.  Don't know what she'll say about this development



The Insane Troll Logic in this thread is giving me a migraine.

Is a male virgin gay because he hasn't had sex with a woman? Hell no.

You're gay because you find the same sex attractive. Whether or not you acted on it yet is irrelevant.

In the "ME" series the option wasn't even open to you, until the 3rd game. So you could pretend your Shep was gay, but for all intents and purposes he wasn't, either by his actions or interaction with other characters.

So if you're a gay man living in a hick town in Alabama where you have no chance of getting any, you're actually straight.

Shepard not having the option to pursue an m/m romance in ME1 or 2 says nothing about Shepard's sexuality. It just means none of the male romance options were gay or bisexual. He could easily be crying himself to sleep at night with his hand and a tub of astroglide.

That's meta-gaming. Given Bioware's proclivity for programming homosexuality into their recent games (lesbian shep in ME1 included) one can only logically assume that male shep was not meant to be gay at the time of ME1 or ME2. I am really trying to be open minded to the debate in general, but this is a stumbling block that I think will alienate those who think along the lines which I do (which is that gay-m/m shep in ME3 is foolish and a mistake).

He was not always gay, or he would have been able to pursue Kaidan. Stop reading more into the scenario that was there. It's simple programming.

By this reasoning, Manshep can't have always been interested in Tali, or he'd have the option to hit on her in ME1. Bioware was worried that people would find alien sex disconcerting, so they didn't put that in in the first game. In the second, circumstances lead to Tali giving Shepard an "opening" to bring it up if Shepard is a man. Same thing with Femshep and Garrus... in ME1, even if she's interested in Turians, they just met and she might have plenty of reason to think that Garrus would think hitting on him is "weird." In ME2 they're closer and he gives her an opportunity to bring it up. You can't even romance him in ME2 if you didn't recruit him in ME1, because it takes more time to build the kind of relationship where you can suggest cross-species turian sex with a guy.

The reason Manshep can't hit on any guy in ME1 or ME2 could be simply because nobody seemed like they would be up for it. Contrary to what you seem to be implying, many gay people will not hit on someone they think is "probably straight." So if Shepard just assumed Kaidan was straight in ME1, he wouldn't have hit on him.

This is why my preferred thing is to just make Nigel Fishnchips outright gay (not available to femsheps), and have him be the new love interest. Then it would make perfect sense for Shepard to hit on the first person who gives him any 'signals.' Of course, I am a femshep who likes Nigel, so I'm willing to give up on a promising love interest just to get some realistic portrayals of sexuality up in here.

Yeah, I'm a giver.

How can you say Bioware was worried people would find alien sex disconcerting? You could sleep with Liara. That doesn't hold water.

For the record, I DO submit that Manshep wasn't interested in Tali in ME1. She was beyond exotic, and likely the idea of sleeping with a Quarian was something that wouldn't occur that quickly. Same with Garrus. Keep in mind that their respective physiologies (although similar to each other) are radically different than humans or other ME species... even to the point that food can kill them. It's perfectly logicaly to assume that even if Shep was "attracted" to Tali or Garrus that it simply wouldn't come up given that the act itself had significant physical barriers potentially.

Of course that is all meta-gaming as well, because the simple answer is that "no, you can't because it wasn't programmed."

[Centauri2002]

hex23 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
For the record, it still wouldn't qualify as STRAIGHT no matter how NOT GAY you think it is.

Sigh....

You obviously still don't get it.

No one cares if him having sex with aliens is straight or gay. Why? Because it's sex with aliens and as such can't be defined by human sexuality terms.

So you can sit there and say "well, it wasn't straight sex!" until the sun burns out, it has nothing to do with anything.

I think the point that was trying to be made was that having sex with aliens wasn't normal because it's not heterosexual sex. Just as homosexual sex isn't normal because it isn't heterosexual sex. If something is wrong because it's not normal and wrong shouldn't be accepted, then why is xenosexual romance accepted?

I'm assuming that's the argument being made.

[Siansonea]

Phaelducan wrote...

ipgd wrote...

hex23 wrote...

ipgd wrote...

So if you're a gay man living in a hick town in Alabama where you have no chance of getting any, you're actually straight.

You obviously missed the part where I said "finding the same sex attractive".

That's what the keyword gay implies?

There's nothing in the game that suggests male Shepard couldn't be attracted to Kaidan, Jacob, Thane, or Garrus, just that none of them are attracted to him.

Again, you are metagaming. Bioware would not have programmed lesbian = ok and gay = not ok. Male shep was not gay at the time of ME1 and ME2. If he was, the option would have been there, period. It's not an omission on the behalf of the programmers. No whoops moment here. If it was so, it would be coded, period.

You're the one who is metagaming, by insisting that BioWare's meta-game decision to exclude s/s options for MaleShep in some way prevents people from role playing a gay/bi Shepard. So don't talk about programmers and coding if you're going to dismiss someone's argument on the basis of them metagaming.

[hex23]

ipgd wrote...

Having gay sex was not a possibility in ME1 or 2, but being gay or bisexual was. Shepard could express his sexuality by declining to have sex with women :innocent:

Gay men are not automatically straight until the first time they stick it in a dude. If a man is attracted to men and not women, he is gay. Having sex is not a prerequisite of attraction. Reciprocation is not a prerequisite of attraction.

Or it's possible that people didn't want to have sex in the "ME2" series because they weren't interested in a dating simulator.

Declining to have sex with women doesn't make you gay. It makes you a monk. Having sex with men and/or or finding men attractive makes you gay. Which again, wasn't possible in the first two games. This isn't rocket science, folks.

[Phaelducan]

Siansonea II wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

ipgd wrote...

hex23 wrote...

makenzieshepard wrote...


Well FU*K since I haven't slept with anyone, much less a women yet I guess I'm not a real lesbian, guess I came out of the closet to my mom for nothing then:blink:.  Don't know what she'll say about this development



The Insane Troll Logic in this thread is giving me a migraine.

Is a male virgin gay because he hasn't had sex with a woman? Hell no.

You're gay because you find the same sex attractive. Whether or not you acted on it yet is irrelevant.

In the "ME" series the option wasn't even open to you, until the 3rd game. So you could pretend your Shep was gay, but for all intents and purposes he wasn't, either by his actions or interaction with other characters.

So if you're a gay man living in a hick town in Alabama where you have no chance of getting any, you're actually straight.

Shepard not having the option to pursue an m/m romance in ME1 or 2 says nothing about Shepard's sexuality. It just means none of the male romance options were gay or bisexual. He could easily be crying himself to sleep at night with his hand and a tub of astroglide.

That's meta-gaming. Given Bioware's proclivity for programming homosexuality into their recent games (lesbian shep in ME1 included) one can only logically assume that male shep was not meant to be gay at the time of ME1 or ME2. I am really trying to be open minded to the debate in general, but this is a stumbling block that I think will alienate those who think along the lines which I do (which is that gay-m/m shep in ME3 is foolish and a mistake).

He was not always gay, or he would have been able to pursue Kaidan. Stop reading more into the scenario that was there. It's simple programming. 

"One can only logically conclude"? You must be REALLY bad at math.  Maybe BioWare didn't want KAIDAN to be bisexual. Maybe they didn't want JACOB to be bisexual. If anyone is reading more into the scenario, it's you. There are a number of interpretations that can be drawn from these facts, not a single one that "one can only logically conclude" because it happens to agree with your opinion. 

Wrong. Kaidan this, Jacob that. If Shep was gay, there simply would have been a gay LI for him to pursue. PERIOD. Bioware would not have allowed for femsheps to be gay and not mansheps. No other Bioware game has done that, and none will. Your are being inherently illogical. It has NOTHING to do with Jacob and Kaidan, it's about the sexuality of Shepard (hmm... who made that very argument earlier?). Even if they weren't gay, you would have been able to express that you were and make a pass at them... except you can't.... because Shep isn't. This is a retcon, pure and simple. 

[TheMarshal]

hex23 wrote...

Or it's possible that people didn't want to have sex in the "ME2" series because they weren't interested in a dating simulator.

Declining to have sex with women doesn't make you gay. It makes you a monk. Having sex with men and/or or finding men attractive makes you gay. Which again, wasn't possible in the first two games. This isn't rocket science, folks.

So this wasn't possible in ME1/ME2?

[hex23]

centauri2002 wrote...
I think the point that was trying to be made was that having sex with aliens wasn't normal because it's not heterosexual sex. Just as homosexual sex isn't normal because it isn't heterosexual sex. If something is wrong because it's not normal and wrong shouldn't be accepted, then why is xenosexual romance accepted?

I'm assuming that's the argument being made.

That's not what I'm saying at all. This has nothing to do with my personal opinoin on homosexuality. I don't like retroactively adding stuff like this just for the sake of being PC. Again, that's why I pointed out I'd be equally displeased if they changed the sexual preference of a previously gay character.

[Servo to the bitter end]

hex23 wrote...

Or it's possible that people didn't want to have sex in the "ME2" series because they weren't interested in a dating simulator.

Declining to have sex with women doesn't make you gay. It makes you a monk. Having sex with men and/or or finding men attractive makes you gay. Which again, wasn't possible in the first two games. This isn't rocket science, folks.

But now it is.

Besides, it might not have been possible, but there was nothing that precluded it. MShep just did not have anyone available to reciprocate.

Male Shep and Female Shep are two sides of the same coin. Providing a male LI who can return MShep's affections makes the character more consistent.

Modifié par TommyServo, 18 mai 2011 - 09:41 .

[Siansonea]

centauri2002 wrote...

hex23 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
For the record, it still wouldn't qualify as STRAIGHT no matter how NOT GAY you think it is.

Sigh....

You obviously still don't get it.

No one cares if him having sex with aliens is straight or gay. Why? Because it's sex with aliens and as such can't be defined by human sexuality terms.

So you can sit there and say "well, it wasn't straight sex!" until the sun burns out, it has nothing to do with anything.

I think the point that was trying to be made was that having sex with aliens wasn't normal because it's not heterosexual sex. Just as homosexual sex isn't normal because it isn't heterosexual sex. If something is wrong because it's not normal and wrong shouldn't be accepted, then why is xenosexual romance accepted?

I'm assuming that's the argument being made.

That is pretty close to what I'm trying to say, Centauri.

The point is, people are trying to say that "Shepard Is Straight—End of Story—So no S/S in ME3!!!!"

And I'm saying it's a particularly convoluted exercise in fail logic. You can't have your Straight FemShep and Straight ManShep if they can both schtupp Liara, and if FemShep can get freaky with Kelly in her quarters. Because depending on where you land on the asari gender/sex question, either FemShep is a lesbian, or both Shepards are engaging in a NON-STRAIGHT relationship. So, by virtue of Basic Math, the credo of "Shepard Is Straight" is rendered null and void. Point, set, and match.

[Merci357]

hex23 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
For the record, it still wouldn't qualify as STRAIGHT no matter how NOT GAY you think it is.

Sigh....

You obviously still don't get it.

No one cares if him having sex with aliens is straight or gay. Why? Because it's sex with aliens and as such can't be defined by human sexuality terms.

So you can sit there and say "well, it wasn't straight sex!" until the sun burns out, it has nothing to do with anything.

Is there a scientific law that indicates this, or is it just your opinion? Because, I'd agree with you if we are talking about, let's say, sex with a Hanar, but not in the case of Asari. Aliens, that resemble a human female to 98,5% besides colour and hair. I guess human sexuality terms apply in this case. Any rule regarding aliens should, in my opinion, consider the species we are talking about.

[Phaelducan]

Siansonea II wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

ipgd wrote...

hex23 wrote...

ipgd wrote...

So if you're a gay man living in a hick town in Alabama where you have no chance of getting any, you're actually straight.

You obviously missed the part where I said "finding the same sex attractive".

That's what the keyword gay implies?

There's nothing in the game that suggests male Shepard couldn't be attracted to Kaidan, Jacob, Thane, or Garrus, just that none of them are attracted to him.

Again, you are metagaming. Bioware would not have programmed lesbian = ok and gay = not ok. Male shep was not gay at the time of ME1 and ME2. If he was, the option would have been there, period. It's not an omission on the behalf of the programmers. No whoops moment here. If it was so, it would be coded, period.

You're the one who is metagaming, by insisting that BioWare's meta-game decision to exclude s/s options for MaleShep in some way prevents people from role playing a gay/bi Shepard. So don't talk about programmers and coding if you're going to dismiss someone's argument on the basis of them metagaming.

Sorry, but that's ridiculous. If they meant him to be gay, you would have had the chance to pursue a male LI. You can't, because they didn't mean for him to be gay. They have changed it for ME3. It has absolutely nothing to do with the sexuality of the NPC's.

[Siansonea]

hex23 wrote...

ipgd wrote...

Having gay sex was not a possibility in ME1 or 2, but being gay or bisexual was. Shepard could express his sexuality by declining to have sex with women :innocent:

Gay men are not automatically straight until the first time they stick it in a dude. If a man is attracted to men and not women, he is gay. Having sex is not a prerequisite of attraction. Reciprocation is not a prerequisite of attraction.

Or it's possible that people didn't want to have sex in the "ME2" series because they weren't interested in a dating simulator.

Declining to have sex with women doesn't make you gay. It makes you a monk. Having sex with men and/or or finding men attractive makes you gay. Which again, wasn't possible in the first two games. This isn't rocket science, folks.

Declining to have sex with women doesn't make you straight either, sweetheart.

[ipgd]

hex23 wrote...

Or it's possible that people didn't want to have sex in the "ME2" series because they weren't interested in a dating simulator.

Declining to have sex with women doesn't make you gay. It makes you a monk. Having sex with men and/or or finding men attractive makes you gay. Which again, wasn't possible in the first two games. This isn't rocket science, folks.

How is finding men attractive impossible in the first two games? There is nothing that suggests my Shepard can't blissfully ignore Miranda's shapely ass, lock himself in his cabin and beat off to the thought of Kaidan. Again, having sex is not a prerequisite of attraction. Reciprocation is not a prerequisite of attraction.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

hex23 wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...



Exactly. You just proved that Male Shepard's sexuality is undefinied.

Because he had no opportunity to hit on guys, not hitting on guys means nothing. Just like a girl who goes to an all girl school and who has never had a boyfriend may or may not be gay or straight. Until you have the opportunity, there's no way to tell.

So the fact that there was no opportunity means we don't know how it would have gone if there was one.

What the hell? Seriously? lol

A girl would know long before her first date what she is attracted to.

Right, as does Shepard.

But until you ask that girl who has never been on a date, you can't tell by observing her whether or not she's gay or straight.

You are arguing that by observing someone and saying "They have never had an opportunity to flirt with someone of the same sex," you can conclude they are not gay. But if you see someone who has never had the opportunity to flirt with someone of the opposit sex, only she knows her sexuality.

Thus, you cannot conclude what Shepard's sexuality is based on the fact that he has not had a chance to flirt with men, anymore than you can determine that girls's sexuality based on the fact that she has not had a chance to flirt with men. If someone has never seen a good chance to flirt with a dude, and has rejected all romance offers from women, you can not determine that person's sexuality.

Then again, I don't know why the heck I even bother arguing this. Apparently BIoware thinks there is no cannon sexuality for Shepard, and that some versions of Shepard are gay, some are straight, and some are bi. If they didn't, they wouldn't be putting this in, and they wouldn't have made female Shepards able to show interest in Kelly.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 18 mai 2011 - 09:42 .

[hex23]

TheMarshal wrote...

So this wasn't possible in ME1/ME2?

Of course not. I don't mean whether or not you, playing the game, found Jacob or Kaiden attractive, I mean there was no indication prior to "ME3" that Shep was gay/bi. And again, male Shep not having sex with females isn't some bold pro-gay stance, either.  The first few times I beat "ME1" I didn't mess with any LIs because I had no idea you could, or wasn't interested in it.

[Centauri2002]

Phaelducan wrote...

Wrong. Kaidan this, Jacob that. If Shep was gay, there simply would have been a gay LI for him to pursue. PERIOD. Bioware would not have allowed for femsheps to be gay and not mansheps. No other Bioware game has done that, and none will. Your are being inherently illogical. It has NOTHING to do with Jacob and Kaidan, it's about the sexuality of Shepard (hmm... who made that very argument earlier?). Even if they weren't gay, you would have been able to express that you were and make a pass at them... except you can't.... because Shep isn't. This is a retcon, pure and simple. 

I think it's simpler to assume that FemShep/Liara was included as titilation for those straight males who find the idea of lesbians entertaining. Thankfully the romance itself was handled with a little more style. But it's obvious a male/male romance would not be considered titilating in the same way, if at all, by the same people.

It's just an example of a double standard. One that has been, thankfully, rectified.

[Temper_Graniteskul]

Except... they did allow for gay/bisexual femSheps but not gay MSheps. Liara's a chick, and so's Kelly. Allowing for gay/bisexual MSheps now is less a retcon than a fix to remove the extant double standard.

I mean, can you imagine the outcry if the fix had gone the other way, and removed Liara/femShep? I can feel the rage from across the dimensions.

[Sylvianus]

Hex is right. If a Human female feels attraction for a Turian female or a female Salarian ? So She becomes a lesbian ? An Alien.... There is something wrong indeed. Very clear that the indicator you are using is not good.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 18 mai 2011 - 09:44 .

[Phaelducan]

SennenScale wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

Again, you are metagaming. Bioware would not have programmed lesbian = ok and gay = not ok. Male shep was not gay at the time of ME1 and ME2. If he was, the option would have been there, period. It's not an omission on the behalf of the programmers. No whoops moment here. If it was so, it would be coded, period.

They recorded the lines for it. Male Shepard had s/s lines.

They recorded S/S lines again in ME2, with male Shepard.

They've been asked why it wasn't included in the final product. They've said it was time constraints, I believe.

TIme constraints my left fore-tentacle. If it was recorded, they would have put it in the game if they wanted it there. Hence why it took modders so little time to get those scenes in the game.

[TheMarshal]

hex23 wrote...

Of course not. I don't mean whether or not you, playing the game, found Jacob or Kaiden attractive, I mean there was no indication prior to "ME3" that Shep was gay/bi. And again, male Shep not having sex with females isn't some bold pro-gay stance, either.  The first few times I beat "ME1" I didn't mess with any LIs because I had no idea you could, or wasn't interested in it.

I don't think anyone is stating that declining to pursue a romance with either gender has anything (conclusively) to do with one's sexuality.  The question remains up in the air until it is answered - which, from the looks of things, gay male Shepards will finally have the opportunity to do in ME3.

[Russalka]

Sylvianus wrote...

Hex is right. If a Human female feels attraction for a Turian female or a female Salarian ? So She becomes a lesbian ? An Alien.... There is something wrong indeed. Very clear that the indicator you are using is not good.

What is the point of this argument again? 

[hex23]

ipgd wrote...

How is finding men attractive impossible in the first two games? There is nothing that suggests my Shepard can't blissfully ignore Miranda's shapely ass, lock himself in his cabin and beat off to the thought of Kaidan. Again, having sex is not a prerequisite of attraction. Reciprocation is not a prerequisite of attraction.

The problem is you're creating scenarios in your mind where your Shep was gay, but these don't exist in 1 or 2. That's all I'm saying. Your Shep could've been gay in your mind but Bioware didn't give you the option, and there was no indication that Shep was into that sort of thing, so it comes off as really heavy handed and honestly kinda lame.

[Servo to the bitter end]

Sylvianus wrote...

Hex is right. If a Human female feels attraction for a Turian female or a female Salarian ? So She becomes a lesbian ? An Alien.... There is something wrong indeed. Very clear that the indicator you are using is not good.

Look at an Asari. From the forehead down, they're a conventionally attractive human woman with blue skin.

[ReallyRue]

Phaelducan wrote...

Wrong. Kaidan this, Jacob that. If Shep was gay, there simply would have been a gay LI for him to pursue. PERIOD. Bioware would not have allowed for femsheps to be gay and not mansheps. No other Bioware game has done that, and none will. Your are being inherently illogical. It has NOTHING to do with Jacob and Kaidan, it's about the sexuality of Shepard (hmm... who made that very argument earlier?). Even if they weren't gay, you would have been able to express that you were and make a pass at them... except you can't.... because Shep isn't. This is a retcon, pure and simple. 

How is that true? The male Warden couldn't make a pass at straight Alistair in DAO, even if he was gay himself, whereas the Warden could make a pass at bisexual Zevran. The fact that he couldn't hit on the straight character doesn't make that Warden any less gay just for not pursuing him. Surely the same logic applies if Shepard=Warden and Alistair=Kaiden/Jacob. Just because you can't pursue them doesn't mean your character isn't gay.