6696 réponses à ce sujet

[Phaelducan]

Siansonea II wrote...

centauri2002 wrote...

hex23 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
For the record, it still wouldn't qualify as STRAIGHT no matter how NOT GAY you think it is.

Sigh....

You obviously still don't get it.

No one cares if him having sex with aliens is straight or gay. Why? Because it's sex with aliens and as such can't be defined by human sexuality terms.

So you can sit there and say "well, it wasn't straight sex!" until the sun burns out, it has nothing to do with anything.

I think the point that was trying to be made was that having sex with aliens wasn't normal because it's not heterosexual sex. Just as homosexual sex isn't normal because it isn't heterosexual sex. If something is wrong because it's not normal and wrong shouldn't be accepted, then why is xenosexual romance accepted?

I'm assuming that's the argument being made.

That is pretty close to what I'm trying to say, Centauri.

The point is, people are trying to say that "Shepard Is Straight—End of Story—So no S/S in ME3!!!!"

And I'm saying it's a particularly convoluted exercise in fail logic. You can't have your Straight FemShep and Straight ManShep if they can both schtupp Liara, and if FemShep can get freaky with Kelly in her quarters. Because depending on where you land on the asari gender/sex question, either FemShep is a lesbian, or both Shepards are engaging in a NON-STRAIGHT relationship. So, by virtue of Basic Math, the credo of "Shepard Is Straight" is rendered null and void. Point, set, and match.

You are blowing up one minute and mostly misunderstood aspect of the debate and using it to "prove" the whole thing. Lesbian fem shep and gay man shep are not synonymous. One was programmed, the other was not. Stop making excuses.

[Servo to the bitter end]

hex23 wrote...

ipgd wrote...

How is finding men attractive impossible in the first two games? There is nothing that suggests my Shepard can't blissfully ignore Miranda's shapely ass, lock himself in his cabin and beat off to the thought of Kaidan. Again, having sex is not a prerequisite of attraction. Reciprocation is not a prerequisite of attraction.

The problem is you're creating scenarios in your mind where your Shep was gay, but these don't exist in 1 or 2. That's all I'm saying. Your Shep could've been gay in your mind but Bioware didn't give you the option, and there was no indication that Shep was into that sort of thing, so it comes off as really heavy handed and honestly kinda lame.

No indication that he wasn't, either - like I said, there just wasn't anyone to reciprocate. And again, she (FemShep) clearly could have identified as such.

[Centauri2002]

hex23 wrote...

That's not what I'm saying at all. This has nothing to do with my personal opinoin on homosexuality. I don't like retroactively adding stuff like this just for the sake of being PC. Again, that's why I pointed out I'd be equally displeased if they changed the sexual preference of a previously gay character.

All right, fair enough. If BioWare implements these changes in the way the majority of us want them to be, then your Shepard's sexuality won't be affected in the slightest. I can see your concern if romantic dialogue is forced on you but it is my hope that any hints of ninjamancing will be excluded from ME3. That way, we can all play in the manner we wish without immersion being broken. 

[Abispa]

Phaelducan wrote...

SennenScale wrote...

Abispa wrote...

What's your persuasion if you romance LEGION?

Robosexual with a dash of selfcest, if you consider that he made your armor a part of him?

Heh, did you play Fallout: New Vegas? Fisto comes to mind.

Nope, I haven't played "Fallout: New Vegas." I mean, I BOUGHT it, but, you know. Did they ever finish making the patch for it?

[Sylvianus]

Russalka wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

Hex is right. If a Human female feels attraction for a Turian female or a female Salarian ? So She becomes a lesbian ? An Alien.... There is something wrong indeed. Very clear that the indicator you are using is not good.

What is the point of this argument again? 

Consider the relationship with Asari as a homosexual relationship if you're a woman. It's a female yes, a female alien.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 18 mai 2011 - 09:49 .

[ipgd]

hex23 wrote...

ipgd wrote...

How is finding men attractive impossible in the first two games? There is nothing that suggests my Shepard can't blissfully ignore Miranda's shapely ass, lock himself in his cabin and beat off to the thought of Kaidan. Again, having sex is not a prerequisite of attraction. Reciprocation is not a prerequisite of attraction.

The problem is you're creating scenarios in your mind where your Shep was gay, but these don't exist in 1 or 2. That's all I'm saying. Your Shep could've been gay in your mind but Bioware didn't give you the option, and there was no indication that Shep was into that sort of thing, so it comes off as really heavy handed and honestly kinda lame.

But there's no indication that a male Shepard who chooses not to pursue any romances is interested in women, either, which leaves his sexuality undefined. This allows the player the freedom to make a roleplaying decision. Mine involves heavy breathing and tissues.

[Servo to the bitter end]

Phaelducan wrote...

You are blowing up one minute and mostly misunderstood aspect of the debate and using it to "prove" the whole thing. Lesbian fem shep and gay man shep are not synonymous. One was programmed, the other was not. Stop making excuses.

No - one was finished. The other was unfinished - but clearly intended at some stage of development. You can look on Youtube to hear Meer tell Kaidan that he hadn't the pleasure of him "serving under me."

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Phaelducan wrote...

SennenScale wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

Again, you are metagaming. Bioware would not have programmed lesbian = ok and gay = not ok. Male shep was not gay at the time of ME1 and ME2. If he was, the option would have been there, period. It's not an omission on the behalf of the programmers. No whoops moment here. If it was so, it would be coded, period.

They recorded the lines for it. Male Shepard had s/s lines.

They recorded S/S lines again in ME2, with male Shepard.

They've been asked why it wasn't included in the final product. They've said it was time constraints, I believe.

TIme constraints my left fore-tentacle. If it was recorded, they would have put it in the game if they wanted it there. Hence why it took modders so little time to get those scenes in the game.

You obviously known absolutely nothing about game design and release.

If something isn't 100% implemented, it doesn't go live. Period. If it's 78% done, it doesn't go in. I've seen CITIES burned to the ground, cities with months of work put into them, because they were only 50% done. Cities that were in the design document from day one, cast aside because you needed their teams to work on other content, content that was 90% done, and higher on the priorities list.

Time is time. If something's not finished, it can't go in. Time constraints are very real things. And deciding what gets crossed off that feature list is devastating and painful. So don't tell me "they would have put it in the game if they wanted it there." Game design does not work that way!  Assuming that it does is... just beyond maddening. When a game comes out with partially implemented features, it's usually not because the devs "didn't want to put in" the full features. It's because of time. 

[Erani]

Sylvianus wrote...

Russalka wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

Hex is right. If a Human female feels attraction for a Turian female or a female Salarian ? So She becomes a lesbian ? An Alien.... There is something wrong indeed. Very clear that the indicator you are using is not good.

What is the point of this argument again? 

Consider the relationship with Asari as a homosexual relationship if you're a woman. It's a female yes, a female alien.

OK, so if MShep had a romance with Garrus or Thane, he would still be straight?

[Abispa]

Can't Shepard eat on his/her own? I mean, ME2 firmly established that s/he can eat if someone else holds the spoon and all. If s/he actually sits down and eats using utensils with his or her hands in ME3, I feel that would threaten my immersion.

[Servo to the bitter end]

Sylvianus wrote...

Russalka wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

Hex is right. If a Human female feels attraction for a Turian female or a female Salarian ? So She becomes a lesbian ? An Alien.... There is something wrong indeed. Very clear that the indicator you are using is not good.

What is the point of this argument again? 

Consider the relationship with Asari as a homosexual relationship if you're a woman. It's a female yes, a female alien.

How you characterize the relationship doesn't even matter - it's about Shepard. If she's attracted to an asari, it follows logically that she would be attracted to human women, and as such would identify as gay or bi.

[SennenScale]

Phaelducan wrote...

TIme constraints my left fore-tentacle. If it was recorded, they would have put it in the game if they wanted it there. Hence why it took modders so little time to get those scenes in the game.

It was recorded and some of it was in the game. You can go listen to them, if you wish.

I don't actually believe it's the reason it was taken out, but that is what was said. However, them saying that would mean they are saying they didn't have any intention of Shepard being exclusively straight because it would break character or anything.

Modifié par SennenScale, 18 mai 2011 - 09:54 .

[Russalka]

Sylvianus wrote...
Consider the relationship with Asari as a homosexual relationship if you're a woman. It's a female yes, a female alien.

Nitpicking because you can, hm?

They were designed to be discount lesbians. Shepard's attraction and viewpoint is the only thing that matters, she sees Liara as a woman, ergo it is a lesbian relationship.

Modifié par Russalka, 18 mai 2011 - 09:55 .

[Phaelducan]

centauri2002 wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

Wrong. Kaidan this, Jacob that. If Shep was gay, there simply would have been a gay LI for him to pursue. PERIOD. Bioware would not have allowed for femsheps to be gay and not mansheps. No other Bioware game has done that, and none will. Your are being inherently illogical. It has NOTHING to do with Jacob and Kaidan, it's about the sexuality of Shepard (hmm... who made that very argument earlier?). Even if they weren't gay, you would have been able to express that you were and make a pass at them... except you can't.... because Shep isn't. This is a retcon, pure and simple. 

I think it's simpler to assume that FemShep/Liara was included as titilation for those straight males who find the idea of lesbians entertaining. Thankfully the romance itself was handled with a little more style. But it's obvious a male/male romance would not be considered titilating in the same way, if at all, by the same people.

It's just an example of a double standard. One that has been, thankfully, rectified.

Sigh, it's not a double standard for one version of the protagonist to be gay and the other straight. It's just the way the developers saw the character at the time. It's also incorrect I think for you to think Liara was thrown in for titilation for immature males. Why is it so hard to accept the possibilty that male shep was straight (emphasis on was) and fem shep was bi-sexual? For some astoundingly absurd reason, the fight for the love corner can't seem to accept that possibility yet immediately glom on the the "fact" that male shep was always bi, but for some reason the programmers simply didn't include that option in the final commercial version of the game?

/facepalm

[jakal66]

All I read here is "my opinion is right yours is wrong" "what I want is right what you want is wrong"

May I point that if you were able to complain and ask for a change in the game you should also tolerate other people's opinions and suggestions even if you consider them wrong,as long as they are done or put politely.

I feel that people which want SS romance are less tolerant thatn what they'd like to imagine...becasue it sounds like they just one thing done in the only way they want it and they're not open to suggestions or oppositions...

My way or the highway is just NOT the way to go people.

I for one don't like the idea too much but I respect where it comes from and why...

There's a big difference between tolerance and acceptance, I can tolerate and respect your ways but accept them as the right ones.I believe in free will and freedom of choice in all matters.So in conclusion I can respects it and tolerate it but still think it's not right for me, and I emphasize on the me part.I am not the beholder of the truth but then again none of us are.

So I don't mind if it's in the game but I don't want it forced through dialogue...

Modifié par jakal66, 18 mai 2011 - 09:54 .

[Raanz]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

SennenScale wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

Again, you are metagaming. Bioware would not have programmed lesbian = ok and gay = not ok. Male shep was not gay at the time of ME1 and ME2. If he was, the option would have been there, period. It's not an omission on the behalf of the programmers. No whoops moment here. If it was so, it would be coded, period.

They recorded the lines for it. Male Shepard had s/s lines.

They recorded S/S lines again in ME2, with male Shepard.

They've been asked why it wasn't included in the final product. They've said it was time constraints, I believe.

TIme constraints my left fore-tentacle. If it was recorded, they would have put it in the game if they wanted it there. Hence why it took modders so little time to get those scenes in the game.

You obviously known absolutely nothing about game design and release.

If something isn't 100% implemented, it doesn't go live. Period. If it's 78% done, it doesn't go in. I've seen CITIES burned to the ground, cities with months of work put into them, because they were only 50% done. Cities that were in the design document from day one, cast aside because you needed their teams to work on other content, content that was 90% done, and higher on the priorities list.

Time is time. If something's not finished, it can't go in. Time constraints are very real things. And deciding what gets crossed off that feature list is devastating and painful. So don't tell me "they would have put it in the game if they wanted it there." Game design does not work that way!  Assuming that it does is... just beyond maddening. When a game comes out with partially implemented features, it's usually not because the devs "didn't want to put in" the full features. It's because of time. 

Or it could have been fully complete, then focus tested and found that a majority of the playtesters didn't like it...so it was removed.  Go ask Gearbox about that in regards to the art direction of "Borderlands".

[Phaelducan]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

SennenScale wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

Again, you are metagaming. Bioware would not have programmed lesbian = ok and gay = not ok. Male shep was not gay at the time of ME1 and ME2. If he was, the option would have been there, period. It's not an omission on the behalf of the programmers. No whoops moment here. If it was so, it would be coded, period.

They recorded the lines for it. Male Shepard had s/s lines.

They recorded S/S lines again in ME2, with male Shepard.

They've been asked why it wasn't included in the final product. They've said it was time constraints, I believe.

TIme constraints my left fore-tentacle. If it was recorded, they would have put it in the game if they wanted it there. Hence why it took modders so little time to get those scenes in the game.

You obviously known absolutely nothing about game design and release.

If something isn't 100% implemented, it doesn't go live. Period. If it's 78% done, it doesn't go in. I've seen CITIES burned to the ground, cities with months of work put into them, because they were only 50% done. Cities that were in the design document from day one, cast aside because you needed their teams to work on other content, content that was 90% done, and higher on the priorities list.

Time is time. If something's not finished, it can't go in. Time constraints are very real things. And deciding what gets crossed off that feature list is devastating and painful. So don't tell me "they would have put it in the game if they wanted it there." Game design does not work that way!  Assuming that it does is... just beyond maddening. When a game comes out with partially implemented features, it's usually not because the devs "didn't want to put in" the full features. It's because of time. 

Fail and fail. Things go in ALL THE TIME that aren't ready in AAA games. Look at the cinematics in ME2 when you go through the Omega-4. No way was that completely done, it was choppy as all hell.

In this case we are talking about a 2 minute cinematic with one character.... which was already animated for the other gender. The lines were recorded... and the animations were complete..... if you honestly say they cut s/s romances because they didn't have time, you are rocking the ganj.

[Polliot]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

SennenScale wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

Again, you are metagaming. Bioware would not have programmed lesbian = ok and gay = not ok. Male shep was not gay at the time of ME1 and ME2. If he was, the option would have been there, period. It's not an omission on the behalf of the programmers. No whoops moment here. If it was so, it would be coded, period.

They recorded the lines for it. Male Shepard had s/s lines.

They recorded S/S lines again in ME2, with male Shepard.

They've been asked why it wasn't included in the final product. They've said it was time constraints, I believe.

TIme constraints my left fore-tentacle. If it was recorded, they would have put it in the game if they wanted it there. Hence why it took modders so little time to get those scenes in the game.

You obviously known absolutely nothing about game design and release.

If something isn't 100% implemented, it doesn't go live. Period. If it's 78% done, it doesn't go in. I've seen CITIES burned to the ground, cities with months of work put into them, because they were only 50% done. Cities that were in the design document from day one, cast aside because you needed their teams to work on other content, content that was 90% done, and higher on the priorities list.

Time is time. If something's not finished, it can't go in. Time constraints are very real things. And deciding what gets crossed off that feature list is devastating and painful. So don't tell me "they would have put it in the game if they wanted it there." Game design does not work that way!  Assuming that it does is... just beyond maddening. When a game comes out with partially implemented features, it's usually not because the devs "didn't want to put in" the full features. It's because of time. 

And it just happens to be the same thing that wasn't done 100% twice? Slim chance,and you are naive if you truly believe it.

[Sylvianus]

TommyServo wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

Russalka wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

Hex is right. If a Human female feels attraction for a Turian female or a female Salarian ? So She becomes a lesbian ? An Alien.... There is something wrong indeed. Very clear that the indicator you are using is not good.

What is the point of this argument again? 

Consider the relationship with Asari as a homosexual relationship if you're a woman. It's a female yes, a female alien.

How you characterize the relationship doesn't even matter - it's about Shepard. If she's attracted to an asari, it follows logically that she would be attracted to human women, and as such would identify as gay or bi.

Okay, However, Do not forget the power of Asari. They can appeal to everyone, anyone, anything. An animal, a stone, a different race, any gender. They transcend affiliations.

[jlb524]

Phaelducan wrote...
Why is it so hard to accept the possibilty that male shep was straight (emphasis on was) and fem shep was bi-sexual?

Oh is she now?  You should bring that up in the FemShep thread.  I'm curious what response you will get.

[Russalka]

Phaelducan wrote...

In this case we are talking about a 2 minute cinematic with one character.... which was already animated for the other gender. The lines were recorded... and the animations were complete..... if you honestly say they cut s/s romances because they didn't have time, you are rocking the ganj.

It was what Bioware said. Or do you only believe that which you agree with? 

[Polliot]

jakal66 wrote...

All I read here is "my opinion is right yours is wrong" "what I want is right what you want is wrong"

May I point that if you were able to complain and ask for a change in the game you should also tolerate other people's opinions and suggestions even if you consider them wrong,as long as they are done or put politely.

I feel that people which want SS romance are less tolerant thatn what they'd like to imagine...becasue it sounds like they just one thing done in the only way they want it and they're not open to suggestions or oppositions...

My way or the highway is just NOT the way to go people.

I for one don't like the idea too much but I respect where it comes from and why...

There's a big difference between tolerance and acceptance, I can tolerate and respect your ways but accept them as the right ones.I believe in free will and freedom of choice in all matters.So in conclusion I can respects it and tolerate it but still think it's not right for me, and I emphasize on the me part.I am not the beholder of the truth but then again none of us are.

So I don't mind if it's in the game but I don't want it forced through dialogue...

Nicely said

[Lenimph]

Sylvianus wrote...


Okay, However, Do not forget the power of Asari. They can appeal to everyone, anyone, anything. An animal, a stone, a different race, any gender. They transcend affiliations.

With the power of T&A 

EDIT: I mean "Funny bumps" 

Modifié par Lenimph, 18 mai 2011 - 09:59 .

[Servo to the bitter end]

Clearly enough people want it that they're putting it in ME3 though.

These forums provide a ton of feedback, but I reckon we're not the only ones who have been agitating for it.

Possibly - gasp - they're not "catering" to anyone and this addition was planned all along for the introduction of a specific character? Maybe this is all in line with their artistic vision? We'll never know unless they tell us. And they probably won't.

[ipgd]

Phaelducan wrote...

centauri2002 wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

Wrong. Kaidan this, Jacob that. If Shep was gay, there simply would have been a gay LI for him to pursue. PERIOD. Bioware would not have allowed for femsheps to be gay and not mansheps. No other Bioware game has done that, and none will. Your are being inherently illogical. It has NOTHING to do with Jacob and Kaidan, it's about the sexuality of Shepard (hmm... who made that very argument earlier?). Even if they weren't gay, you would have been able to express that you were and make a pass at them... except you can't.... because Shep isn't. This is a retcon, pure and simple. 

I think it's simpler to assume that FemShep/Liara was included as titilation for those straight males who find the idea of lesbians entertaining. Thankfully the romance itself was handled with a little more style. But it's obvious a male/male romance would not be considered titilating in the same way, if at all, by the same people.

It's just an example of a double standard. One that has been, thankfully, rectified.

Sigh, it's not a double standard for one version of the protagonist to be gay and the other straight. It's just the way the developers saw the character at the time. It's also incorrect I think for you to think Liara was thrown in for titilation for immature males. Why is it so hard to accept the possibilty that male shep was straight (emphasis on was) and fem shep was bi-sexual? For some astoundingly absurd reason, the fight for the love corner can't seem to accept that possibility yet immediately glom on the the "fact" that male shep was always bi, but for some reason the programmers simply didn't include that option in the final commercial version of the game?

/facepalm

It wasn't a "fact" that he was always bi. We aren't stupid, we know why it wasn't in the game.

The point is that adding m/m romance in ME3 isn't an inherent contradiction to any established sexuality of Shepard, as some people were saying it is, because his sexuality was never explicitly defined. There is no point at which Shepard stands up and says "I am a manly heterosexual male man who loves boobies and dicks are gross unless it's mine between some boobies". You were always free to roleplay a gay Shepard if you wanted to (which I had, prior to this announcement) by abstaining from sexual relationships with the female romance options in the game.

Modifié par ipgd, 18 mai 2011 - 09:58 .