6696 réponses à ce sujet

[ElitePinecone]

Astalder wrote...

I have no issue with this, and am happy for those of you that were interested in this change.  I have one question, and one concern.

Question: I was under the impression there were no new romance options in ME3, so has it been confirmed that this change is with the pre-existing romance choices?  That leaves a lot of questions with implementation, does it have to be a fresh playthrough (maybe through the comic), will it be retroactive somehow...?

For some odd reason, the line in a single interview that there are "no new LIs" has been repeated far more than Casey Hudson's repudiation of it a day later. 

Put simply; that interview was done a month ago, since that time Bioware have reconsidered the romances for ME3. There will be some combination of romances and friendships with both existing characters and new characters. 

Nobody is sure whether the s/s romances will be with already-introduced characters, new characters, or both. Given the specific wording of Hudson's tweets in some cases, I would suspect that romances are available with existing characters, as Casey refers to the writers aiming to 'preserve continuity'. They may also be available with new characters - nobody really knows. 

[Darth Death]

Things just got sloppy, random, & abrupt. My worse fears are being realized. Consistency is generally important to me, however lacking in this aspect. One of many flaws I'm sure.

[DrBobcat]

I made this post in another thread, but I believe many of the points are still relevant...

Personally, I would be very pleased if Garrus became a m/m option in ME3. This is an opinion I've had for years now, but I've kept it to myself because I was uncertain how others would react. Garrus is an extremely popular character, after all, and one many hold in high esteem. That being said, I imagine most males would describe their attraction to him in purely platonic terms. They use words like "bro" and "best friend," not "boyfriend" or "lover." A significant number of people do not want to cross this line and I'm okay with that. What they do in their game is not my concern. That I'm not given the same amount of leeway, however, is my concern.

All romance content, regardless of type, is completely optional. If a player does not wish to experience such content, they can choose not to and will not be penalized in any way. There is no reason, in my opinion, why this system should change. Now, some individuals have mentioned "ninjamancing." This is a legitimate concern. I would be upset too if one of my characters was locked into a romance unwillingly. Even so, please try to keep the issues separate. A character's sexuality and the ambiguity of his/her dialogue options are two completely independent points of discussion. One is a matter of character development, the other a problem with the game's interface.

Fans are also worried that opening Garrus up to same-sex romance in ME3 would make continuing a friendship with him impossible. Again, the two are not necessarily related. If Bioware wanted to, they could write different sets of dialogue for each type of relationship. In fact, this seems to be exactly what they plan on doing. Shortly after confirming s/s content for ME3, Casey Hudson said, “[The] writing team has some great ideas for breaking the mold on char. interactions, which should add to non romance relationship[s].” (He also said this in response to concerns about character continuity: “I'm confident that our writing team will handle LI's in #ME3 with sophistication and preserve character continuity.”) Now, I may be biased, but this sounds like a win-win to me.

Finally, there are those who refuse to believe Garrus is (or could be) bisexual. In response, I can only ask, “How do you know?” I've been on this forum for years and have yet to hear a convincing argument for this claim. Yes, Garrus had sex with a female turian while serving in the military. This only proves that he's not a virgin. It is not a definitive statement on his sexuality. “But, Garrus is a badass vigilante with a cool voice and a dangerous past!” I completely agree. What's your point? Are you saying Garrus' personality precludes him from being bisexual? Why? What evidence do you have to back up this assertion? I'm willing to bet that this argument is entirely dependent on stereotypes. Stop. Stereotypes are rarely accurate and do not contribute to a healthy debate. Please, look up bisexuality in the dictionary and do some research before jumping to conclusions.

To be honest, I'm surprised we're even having this debate. Whether it's for romantic or platonic reasons, most of us here are fans of Garrus. Yet, if it weren't for the talented writers at Bioware, this thread wouldn't even exist. Why then do we assume the worst when it comes to this issue? The same developer that brought us Garrus Vakarian, the collar poppin', scopin' 'n dropin' stud we all love is suddenly going to drop the ball? Really? Really? Wow. I thought I was cynical...

Modifié par DrBobcat, 16 mai 2011 - 01:01 .

[blacqout]

Russalka wrote...

You used the h-word, not I. I am just annoyed by people being overly sensitive about men flirting with men, or feeling implications of that over generic lines. Flirting happens.

You asked someone if his sexuality was threatened a little earlier. I suppose that was just a generic line that could be interpreted in a myriad of different ways, too.

Shepard Lives wrote...

Russalka wrote...

Fenris does not come onto you if you do not show interest. And Anders is a needy person. Get over it.

Seeeeriously.

So he came onto you. Big whoop. Tell him "not interested" and take your damn rivalry points like a man. It's not a punishment. Not to mention Mass Effect doesn't even have friendship/rivalry.

Do you seriously want all characters to take absolutely no action whatsoever unless the player prompts them to? This is something I will never understand.
It makes them feel so much more alive if they flirt with you, lie to you, make up plans of their own without the player's help.

Having each potential same sex LI flirt with Shepard in ME3 - as was the case in Dragon Age II with male Hawke - would be detrimental to the game. Making everyone outwardly bisexual isn't a solution i'm terribly fond of.

And no one said that they were against characters taking initiative and acting on their own, but nice strawman.

[InvaderErl]

Barackus2 wrote...

 The relationships you have established since ME1 are all set in stone, why suddenly bring a hammer in ME3 and put cracks in the foundation?

They had the perfect chance to do this in ME2, you had a wide cast of characters who could have been used for the s/s romance, now just trying to shoehorn it in ME3 is too late and I don't know if it can be done well enough.  I hope so, but I have little to no faith for it.

I agree very much with this IF the s/s love interest are returning squaddies but for me it goes really down to the basic fact that I don't believe Shepard should be able to romance anyone that was in ME1/2 that they did not already romance. Those relationships are already underway and now how are those going to work from a mechanical perspective because we've got people trying to catch up.

Every romantic interest is left in a very different spot from the versions of them that did not participate in said romance. So now s/s Shepards are going to have to re-romance Tali or Garrus or Ashley or Kaidan in ME3 with everything else going on?

So they're going to have a no romance path for them? On top of that will be a returning romance path? AND then on top of that a s/s romance path for them? I'm skeptical, especially after DA2, which seemed to be the biggest case of let's have a romance with talking to one another as little as possible.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 16 mai 2011 - 01:07 .

[Barackus2]

HolyMoogle wrote...

Ghost Warrior wrote...

These are characters I can see as bisexual(others not one bit):
1. Liara (well she already is,but anyway)
2. Samara (every asari seems to be)
3. Thane (not every friendship is the same,and his with male Shep looks like something that could develop in something more)
4. Jack (mentioned that she was,doesn't mean she still is,but very possible)
5. Kasumi (because we know very little about her,and we have no real dialogues to indicate either way)
6. this one a huge maybe - Miranda (something about her,I can't quite explain it.I see her being a bi very unlikely but if VERY carefully done,I would find it...believable)

Garrus,Kaidan,Ashley and Jacob I can't see as bisexual people,without ruining their character.

Wrex,Zaeed,Mordin,Grunt and Legion I don't see as any kind of LI

And as for Tali,I dislike her in general so I never spent enough time with her in ME2 to have an opinion


And I already know what will some of you answer,that this is just my opinion and doesn't make it true. Right,but I am a great judge of character and I'm pretty sure my list makes a lot sense. Now you say "it makes sense to you,not for everyone" or something like that.

Anyway,I just wanted to say one more time that I'm not against S/S relationships in general,just against certain established characters being bisexual. That is all.

You seem to find news of bisexuality/homosexuality in male characters to be much more upsetting/likely to "ruin" their character than with females. Funny how that works, huh. No underlying preferences biasing viewpoints there.

And you seem to like attacking people for no reason, funny how that works huh?   In ME series, the asari are already bisexual, monosexual whatever its easier to accept that a female would be able to romance one of their species because it is common practice.  All the characters he mentioned besides Thane had some evidence of bisexuality in the game, NOT cut content, actually in the game and he gives his opinion, so what?

So many on the other side of the fence see every argument as an attack against yourself, stop this crap.  He has his viewpoints and you have yours, if you have to see some veiled discrimination in every post maybe you should just leave for a while until you can discuss things properly.

[Ghost Warrior]

HolyMoogle wrote...


You seem to find news of bisexuality/homosexuality in male characters to be much more upsetting/likely to "ruin" their character than with females. Funny how that works, huh. No underlying preferences biasing viewpoints there.

No,it's just logic and how BioWare made their characters. Asari seem to all be bisexual,so there go Samara and Liara. Jack mentioned she was with a girl,so there you go. Kasumi as a DLC character is a pretty blank and we simply don't know enough about her. For Miranda,I said it myself highly unlikely,but something about her being engineered by her father,and seeing she is one of the most reasonable people on Normandy makes me thing she would maybe go for Fem Shep too.

[NGC1300]

I don't know about other characters but Kaidan and Ashley were meant to be .. let's say 'gay-able' since the first game. I always played male Shep and I always hit on Kaidan. I didn't get him at my first try but I did at the second one(how?: toggling MShep and Kaidan's relationship to 'true' which activate the gay romance option. Don't ask me for further detail because I can't remember but there's a save game edit up on the internet that will do the trick). So far, I don't see any differences between his straight and gay role. Kaidan is still Kaidan: loyal, a bit arrogant, conscience etc.

Get over it.

[Barackus2]

InvaderErl wrote...

Barackus2 wrote...

 The relationships you have established since ME1 are all set in stone, why suddenly bring a hammer in ME3 and put cracks in the foundation?

They had the perfect chance to do this in ME2, you had a wide cast of characters who could have been used for the s/s romance, now just trying to shoehorn it in ME3 is too late and I don't know if it can be done well enough.  I hope so, but I have little to no faith for it.

I agree very much with this IF the s/s love interest are returning squaddies but for me it goes really down to the basic fact that I don't believe Shepard should be able to romance anyone that was in ME1/2 that they did not already romance. Those relationships are already underway and now how are those going to work from a mechanical perspective because we've got people trying to catch up.

Every romantic interest is left in a very different spot from the versions of them that did not participate in said romance. So now s/s is going to have to re-romance Tali or Garrus or Ashley or Kaidan?

So they're going to have a no romance path for them? On top of that will be a returning romance path? AND then on top of that a s/s romance path for them? I'm skeptical, especially after DA2, which seemed to be the biggest case of let's have a romance with talking to one another as little as possible.

Exactly! So say I romanced Ashley and Miranda in the previous games, I'm going to have enough time to deal with the fallout from that argument, which they have promised if you have cheated then in the third game I also notice that Jacob has some "sweet" abs, and still have time to gather all the species in the galaxy together to stop the Reapers..

I already see what is going to happen Shepard is going to use the power of love to stop the Reapers by having sex with everyone : Krogan, salarian, batarian everybody..go Shepard love power <3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3

[Clonedzero]

DrBobcat wrote...

I made this post in another thread, but I believe many of the points are still relevant...

Personally, I would be very pleased if Garrus became a m/m option in ME3. This is an opinion I've had for years now, but I've kept it to myself because I was uncertain how others would react. Garrus is an extremely popular character, after all, and one many hold in high esteem. That being said, I imagine most males would describe their attraction to him in purely platonic terms. They use words like "bro" and "best friend," not "boyfriend" or "lover." A significant number of people do not want to cross this line and I'm okay with that. What they do in their game is not my concern. That I'm not given the same amount of leeway, however, is my concern.

All romance content, regardless of type, is completely optional. If a player does not wish to experience such content, they can choose not to and will not be penalized in any way. There is no reason, in my opinion, why this system should change. Now, some individuals have mentioned "ninjamancing." This is a legitimate concern. I would be upset too if one of my characters was locked into a romance unwillingly. Even so, please try to keep the issues separate. A character's sexuality and the ambiguity of his/her dialogue options are two completely independent points of discussion. One is a matter of character development, the other a problem with the game's interface.

Fans are also worried that opening Garrus up to same-sex romance in ME3 would make continuing a friendship with him impossible. Again, the two are not necessarily related. If Bioware wanted to, they could write different sets of dialogue for each type of relationship. In fact, this seems to be exactly what they plan on doing. Shortly after confirming s/s content for ME3, Casey Hudson said, “[The] writing team has some great ideas for breaking the mold on char. interactions, which should add to non romance relationship[s].” (He also said this in response to concerns about character continuity: “I'm confident that our writing team will handle LI's in #ME3 with sophistication and preserve character continuity.”) Now, I may be biased, but this sounds like a win-win to me.

Finally, there are those who refuse to believe Garrus is (or could be) bisexual. In response, I can only ask, “How do you know?” I've been on this forum for years and have yet to hear a convincing argument for this claim. Yes, Garrus had sex with a female turian while serving in the military. This only proves that he's not a virgin. It is not a definitive statement on his sexuality. “But, Garrus is a badass vigilante with a cool voice and a dangerous past!” I completely agree. What's your point? Are you saying Garrus' personality precludes him from being bisexual? Why? What evidence do you have to back up this assertion? I'm willing to bet that this argument is entirely dependent on stereotypes. Stop. Stereotypes are rarely accurate and do not contribute to a healthy debate. Please, look up bisexuality in the dictionary and do some research before jumping to conclusions.

To be honest, I'm surprised we're even having this debate. Whether it's for romantic or platonic reasons, most of us here are fans of Garrus. Yet, if it weren't for the talented writers at Bioware, this thread wouldn't even exist. Why then do we assume the worst when it comes to this issue? The same developer that brought us Garrus Vakarian, the collar poppin', scopin' 'n dropin' stud we all love is suddenly going to drop the ball? Really? Really? Wow. I thought I was cynical...

well theres no indication at all, what-so-ever that garrus is bi. he has absolutely no reason to hide this from shepard, its silly to think it wouldnt have come up already.

theres no arch there, it's a strictly brotherly friendship between male shepard and garrus and then suddenly the entire dynamic of the friendship suddenly changes? it makes no sense.

yes, its fesible for him to be bi, its completely possible. but only if you like cheap fanservicey writing. for him to be bi it'd have to be a really specific and impossible to do well set of circumstances and dialogue that would just well be bad.

i mean it context with the established convos male shepard and garrus have had, and the way they treat each other it makes a bi relationship with him completely unrealistic and would feel absolutely forced fanservice. im sorry but its true.

garrus is actually one of the very few characters i think would be impossible to convincingly make bi due to the established nature of their friendship, for it to be anything more than that it would have to go down a very very specific path to explain it and that path isnt one that makes good writing very likely.

[Ghost Warrior]

Mods don't count. What was planned to be in game,and what actually is there are two very different things. If they made Kaidan bi in ME1,I would not object.

[bd223437]

STG wrote...

I like varren.

Bioware, take a hint.

Two words:  scale itch.

Bioware got the hint.
Kelly got the trip to see Dr. Solus.

[Clonedzero]

Nyoka wrote...

Has anyone suggested a bi VS and nothing more yet?

i suggested picking the most likely choices with the most realistic reasons and writing specific m/m f/f romances for them with unique dialogue and scenes rather than a model swap of shepard.

it'd be better and more tasteful than just blandly making everyone bi. it'd be more interesting and deep if there was unique m/m f/f romances rather than just having a generic shepard + blank scene where its the same regardless of shepards gender.

the VS was my top choice for that to happen as its the easiest to work them being bi in and having it being believable.

[NGC1300]

Ghost Warrior wrote...

Mods don't count. What was planned to be in game,and what actually is there are two very different things. If they made Kaidan bi in ME1,I would not object.

FYI. It's not a mode. And you're welcome to try. Nothing added to the game when gay romance option unlocked. The lesbian option is still 100% in there. The gay one is broken at some points, but most of the conversations are still there.

Nuff said.

----------------

Edit>> Let me rephrase. The voiceover is broken at some points but all the subtitles are there for m/m romance.

Modifié par NGC1300, 16 mai 2011 - 01:18 .

[Ghost Warrior]

Clonedzero wrote...
well theres no indication at all, what-so-ever that garrus is bi. he has absolutely no reason to hide this from shepard, its silly to think it wouldnt have come up already.

theres no arch there, it's a strictly brotherly friendship between male shepard and garrus and then suddenly the entire dynamic of the friendship suddenly changes? it makes no sense.

yes, its fesible for him to be bi, its completely possible. but only if you like cheap fanservicey writing. for him to be bi it'd have to be a really specific and impossible to do well set of circumstances and dialogue that would just well be bad.

i mean it context with the established convos male shepard and garrus have had, and the way they treat each other it makes a bi relationship with him completely unrealistic and would feel absolutely forced fanservice. im sorry but its true.

garrus is actually one of the very few characters i think would be impossible to convincingly make bi due to the established nature of their friendship, for it to be anything more than that it would have to go down a very very specific path to explain it and that path isnt one that makes good writing very likely.

Precisely

[mineralica]

My biggest concern are resources - voice actor's time, disc space, etc. Less chars but deeper relationship - and throwing another bunch of variables? I fear this will end up in "sex or constant calibrations" situation where Shepard either receives silence or romantically involved

[Abramis brama]

I might be okay with one bi guy but if they make old character bi too... I probably won't experience the third game in the series.
Quite sad about what Bioware is doing right now, all those other news sounded pretty damn good for the game.

[Ghost Warrior]

NGC1300 wrote...

Ghost Warrior wrote...

Mods don't count. What was planned to be in game,and what actually is there are two very different things. If they made Kaidan bi in ME1,I would not object.

FYI. It's not a mode. And you're welcome to try. Nothing added to the game when gay romance option unlocked. The lesbian option is still 100% in there. The gay one is broken at some points, but most of the conversations are still there.

Nuff said.

----------------

Edit>> Let me rephrase. The voiceover is broken at some points but all the subtitles are there for m/m romance.

But is it in vannila game,available for everyone like with Fem Shep? No.

[HolyMoogle]

Barackus2 wrote...

HolyMoogle wrote...

Ghost Warrior wrote...

These are characters I can see as bisexual(others not one bit):
1. Liara (well she already is,but anyway)
2. Samara (every asari seems to be)
3. Thane (not every friendship is the same,and his with male Shep looks like something that could develop in something more)
4. Jack (mentioned that she was,doesn't mean she still is,but very possible)
5. Kasumi (because we know very little about her,and we have no real dialogues to indicate either way)
6. this one a huge maybe - Miranda (something about her,I can't quite explain it.I see her being a bi very unlikely but if VERY carefully done,I would find it...believable)

Garrus,Kaidan,Ashley and Jacob I can't see as bisexual people,without ruining their character.

Wrex,Zaeed,Mordin,Grunt and Legion I don't see as any kind of LI

And as for Tali,I dislike her in general so I never spent enough time with her in ME2 to have an opinion


And I already know what will some of you answer,that this is just my opinion and doesn't make it true. Right,but I am a great judge of character and I'm pretty sure my list makes a lot sense. Now you say "it makes sense to you,not for everyone" or something like that.

Anyway,I just wanted to say one more time that I'm not against S/S relationships in general,just against certain established characters being bisexual. That is all.

You seem to find news of bisexuality/homosexuality in male characters to be much more upsetting/likely to "ruin" their character than with females. Funny how that works, huh. No underlying preferences biasing viewpoints there.

And you seem to like attacking people for no reason, funny how that works huh?   In ME series, the asari are already bisexual, monosexual whatever its easier to accept that a female would be able to romance one of their species because it is common practice.  All the characters he mentioned besides Thane had some evidence of bisexuality in the game, NOT cut content, actually in the game and he gives his opinion, so what?

So many on the other side of the fence see every argument as an attack against yourself, stop this crap.  He has his viewpoints and you have yours, if you have to see some veiled discrimination in every post maybe you should just leave for a while until you can discuss things properly.

Goodness. I didn't see an attack at all in what I wrote, simply an analysis of his reasoning. Ghost Warrior's already replied to me above, so clearly he isn't as thin-skinned as you. It seems you are the one flying off the handle and attacking me. Do I therefore sense discrimination in your post? Yes. Moreso than Ghost Warrior's. No need for the language.

Ghost Warrior wrote...

No,it's just logic and how BioWare
made their characters. Asari seem to all be bisexual,so there go Samara
and Liara. Jack mentioned she was with a girl,so there you go. Kasumi as
a DLC character is a pretty blank and we simply don't know enough about
her. For Miranda,I said it myself highly unlikely,but something about
her being engineered by her father,and seeing she is one of the most
reasonable people on Normandy makes me thing she would maybe go for Fem
Shep too.

Sure, that's the reasoning for why those characters may be bisexual, but where is there any evidence that the others could not be? I couldn't see anything, not to mention the mysteriously "cut" dialogue for Kaiden and Jacob.

[HopHazzard]

Nyoka wrote...

Has anyone suggested a bi VS and nothing more yet?

If I were doing it, I would make the VS a bi option only for players who hadn't romanced anyone in previous games with the new guy and Liara as bi options for all players.

[NGC1300]

Since this thread is more related to the subject, I'll move my previous post to here instead.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

It cracks me up every time I see this kind of 'discussion' about how disheartening it is to include s/s romance in the game. why?

1. Keep in mind that it is an option to initiate every type of romance. I haven't seen any in-game characters hitting on you without YOU doing so first so far(talking about romancable-LI).

2. Although without any kind of indicator, it is quite clear which dialogue would lead to romance option. (tell me your brain stops functioning when it comes to scrutinizing the intention of messages you're trying to convey to other characters)

3. If you're gonna stop buying this game just because it includes s/s romance which is merely a minor content of the whole game? Then dear sir you can go to hell. I admit that I've always been longing for gay option since the first game(which was meant to be included but finally got cut off before the final release) but the major bit of entertainment here is the gameplay, storyline and gaming artistry which make ME series one of the most outstanding RPGs in the past decades. Shouldn't you be more concerned about that?

4. So far, the devs have shown their great skills at developing the game, considering ME and ME2, so I am quite sure ME3 is going to turn out satisfactory. The team might not be the best but I think it's at the top list regarding gaming industry. I believe they do know what they're doing.

5. I don't understand why some people would be worried about their favourite characters becoming 'gay-able'. Maybe your subconsciousness is aware of that bit of insecurity of your sexuality? That in the middle of the night you can't resist turning on your gaming engine to check it out? I am gay and I am not even bothered always being surrounded by two chicks whose boobs are probably heavier than boulders =P If the gay chars start to wield rainbow flags while shooting aliens by your side then I might reconsider joining the cons list.

6. As far as I've seen, most of the anti-s/s content are just jerks who can't stand m/m relationship but don't mind two women humping each other. Maybe you should revise your understanding of what 'gay' is?

well, I've talked too much and I know it won't change a thing. Those who 'don't mind but don't want it' would still don't want it and those who want it would still want it. And I'm still going to buy the game whether it's going to include s/s romance or not (good news it is included).

It's just a game.

Ps. I hope I will see Joker without his cap in ME3. Just a little request. ^^

[InvaderErl]

Clonedzero wrote...

well theres no indication at all, what-so-ever that garrus is bi. he has absolutely no reason to hide this from shepard, its silly to think it wouldnt have come up already.

theres no arch there, it's a strictly brotherly friendship between male shepard and garrus and then suddenly the entire dynamic of the friendship suddenly changes? it makes no sense.

yes, its fesible for him to be bi, its completely possible. but only if you like cheap fanservicey writing. for him to be bi it'd have to be a really specific and impossible to do well set of circumstances and dialogue that would just well be bad.

i mean it context with the established convos male shepard and garrus have had, and the way they treat each other it makes a bi relationship with him completely unrealistic and would feel absolutely forced fanservice. im sorry but its true.

garrus is actually one of the very few characters i think would be impossible to convincingly make bi due to the established nature of their friendship, for it to be anything more than that it would have to go down a very very specific path to explain it and that path isnt one that makes good writing very likely.

I think you're spot on.

[True Zarken]

*egh* What's done is done I suppose, we can't change it now.

I wouldn't mind one bit if Bioware made it so the existing romance options weren't bi e.g., Jacob, Miranda, Tali, Garrus, etc. because they've had no reason to hide the fact that they are bi. Plus Garrus (using him as an example) have become very brotherly and for him to drop feelings on my Shepard out of the blue makes no sense to me. Same with Jacob he didn't have anything to hide during ME2, hell we were on a suicide mission if he wanted to he would've expressed his feelings, along with Garrus for that matter as well. It makes no sense to make already romance-able character s/s romances.

I wouldn't mind it one bit if Shiala, Parsini, Samara, Kasumi, even Grunt (leave that to your imagination), etc. became romance-able because they have not had previous screen time as romance-able so it makes some sense.

Ah well like I said "What's done is done" Bioware has made up its mind and that's that. We now just have to wait and see how they execute it, but please for the love of god don't do it like DA2 where they are forced upon you. Anders, Fenris, even Merrill I am looking at you! Isabela not so much.