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[Siansonea]

Someone With Mass wrote...

I most likely won't mind the S/S romances or any of that, as long as they aren't forcing themselves on me. Like if I just want to know them better as a friend and by some strange event ends up being their other kind of "friend". That would be a problem.

I think pretty much everyone who supports inclusion also supports clear flirting options, and a number of ways to avoid this very thing have been suggested. The <3 icon from DA2 is a popular choice, or pink colored text for flirt dialog of all kinds.

[Russalka]

Someone With Mass wrote...

I most likely won't mind the S/S romances or any of that, as long as they aren't forcing themselves on me. Like if I just want to know them better as a friend and by some strange event ends up being their other kind of "friend". That would be a problem.

I understand the discomfort and not wanting to be rude to the companion. But if you take Anders for example, isn't it rather in-character that he would get at least slightly needy for special attention and very easily be angry at rejection?

Wouldn't there be less complaints if it were a situation between opposite-gender people? I do not mean to start an argument, I just want input.

[FenrisDeSolar]

Siansonea II wrote...

Personally, I'd rather see a human female as an f/f option. We already have Liara as an asari option. Whether they give Kelly more depth, add a new female human, or let Miranda explore more options, I think it's best that our new option be human.

That said, I wouldn't mind seeing Shiala as a "fling" option. After all, she and Liara are the only two asari who know Shepard's mind intimately, so Shiala and Shepard have a connection that others don't have. I really wonder Shiala's role as someone who has the Cipher hasn't been addressed more, that is something that only she, Shepard and the deceased Saren shared, and it makes them really unique, even outside of the fact that we know more about the Reapers now. I've always thought that the Cipher was an underutilized story point, and Shiala an underutilized character.

Wouldn't Liara also have the Cipher, though? Since she does her brain-thing with Shepard after Feros? That's what I always assumed. If this is untrue, I vote for Shiala x Liara love scene in ME3. Liara deserved the Cipher.

[Servo to the bitter end]

I just want to share a great post by one Mr. Mannlyman in another, probably soon-to-be-closed thread on the subject, "Changing Shepard":

Mr. MannlyMan wrote...

Depends on how they handle it, honestly.

I'm fine with getting hit on by gay men in the game, but if I have to act like a ****** in order to turn them down, I won't be happy. Bioware should give us three refusals and an option for furthering the romance: "I'm sorry, Not interested," "I don't swing that way," or "That's disgusting!" as your three main dialogue options, and a left-side option that accepts by saying "I really like you." My Shepard may not be gay, but he's not a homophobe either.

Funny how the OP thnks that giving us homosexual options in the game fundamentally changes Shepard's character. By that logic, every Shepard is an A-hole, every Shepard is considerate, kind and liberal, and every Shepard objects to human nationalistic sentiments while hypocritically supporting Terra Firma and distrusting all aliens. Yeah. Every Shepard also believes in both blind idealism and ruthless efficiency, idealism be damned. So every dialogue option is really a direct violation of Shepard's character, because  nothing is in-character for him/her. Or maybe everything is? Depends...

This is an excellent summary of...well, just about everything that is pertinent to the issue for both sides.

Modifié par TommyServo, 19 mai 2011 - 04:43 .

[Siansonea]

FenrisDeSolar wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Personally, I'd rather see a human female as an f/f option. We already have Liara as an asari option. Whether they give Kelly more depth, add a new female human, or let Miranda explore more options, I think it's best that our new option be human.

That said, I wouldn't mind seeing Shiala as a "fling" option. After all, she and Liara are the only two asari who know Shepard's mind intimately, so Shiala and Shepard have a connection that others don't have. I really wonder Shiala's role as someone who has the Cipher hasn't been addressed more, that is something that only she, Shepard and the deceased Saren shared, and it makes them really unique, even outside of the fact that we know more about the Reapers now. I've always thought that the Cipher was an underutilized story point, and Shiala an underutilized character.

Wouldn't Liara also have the Cipher, though? Since she does her brain-thing with Shepard after Feros? That's what I always assumed. If this is untrue, I vote for Shiala x Liara love scene in ME3. Liara deserved the Cipher.

I don't know, I always got the impression that humans could "download" from an asari, but not "upload", if that makes sense. And I don't think the asari mind-meld is always a case of the asari and human copying each others' entire minds into the other person à la Rogue from the X-Men. I felt like Shiala had to do something special to give Shepard the Cipher, but that Shepard wasn't necessarily able to give the Cipher to Liara. Liara doesn't understand the security terminal message on Ilos, where Shepard realizes that he/she can understand the Prothean language, after all (unless, am I wrong about this?).

[M-Sinistrari]

Siansonea II wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

I most likely won't mind the S/S romances or any of that, as long as they aren't forcing themselves on me. Like if I just want to know them better as a friend and by some strange event ends up being their other kind of "friend". That would be a problem.

I think pretty much everyone who supports inclusion also supports clear flirting options, and a number of ways to avoid this very thing have been suggested. The <3 icon from DA2 is a popular choice, or pink colored text for flirt dialog of all kinds.

And also throw in more friendship dialog so no one feels slighted with not romancing a character and I think that does cut down on a lot of the valid concerns of the anti-s/s crowd.

[Erani]

@Sian

That sounds right. I'm pretty sure Shepard couldn't pass on the Cipher.

[Siansonea]

M-Sinistrari wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

I most likely won't mind the S/S romances or any of that, as long as they aren't forcing themselves on me. Like if I just want to know them better as a friend and by some strange event ends up being their other kind of "friend". That would be a problem.

I think pretty much everyone who supports inclusion also supports clear flirting options, and a number of ways to avoid this very thing have been suggested. The <3 icon from DA2 is a popular choice, or pink colored text for flirt dialog of all kinds.

And also throw in more friendship dialog so no one feels slighted with not romancing a character and I think that does cut down on a lot of the valid concerns of the anti-s/s crowd.

If anything, lack of friendship dialogue is my biggest concern of all. I don't think getting to know people should be limited to getting to know people you're having sex with. 

[FenrisDeSolar]

Siansonea II wrote...


I don't know, I always got the impression that humans could "download" from an asari, but not "upload", if that makes sense. And I don't think the asari mind-meld is always a case of the asari and human copying each others' entire minds into the other person à la Rogue from the X-Men. I felt like Shiala had to do something special to give Shepard the Cipher, but that Shepard wasn't necessarily able to give the Cipher to Liara. Liara doesn't understand the security terminal message on Ilos, where Shepard realizes that he/she can understand the Prothean language, after all (unless, am I wrong about this?).

I thought it was the other way around. XD Asari leech information from our minds, and we just embrace eternity and like it. But if she can't understand the message on Ilos, then no, I guess she doesn't have the Cipher. Would Shiala be able to give it to her, like she gave it to Shepard -- and can I watch? 8D

[Siansonea]

FenrisDeSolar wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...


I don't know, I always got the impression that humans could "download" from an asari, but not "upload", if that makes sense. And I don't think the asari mind-meld is always a case of the asari and human copying each others' entire minds into the other person à la Rogue from the X-Men. I felt like Shiala had to do something special to give Shepard the Cipher, but that Shepard wasn't necessarily able to give the Cipher to Liara. Liara doesn't understand the security terminal message on Ilos, where Shepard realizes that he/she can understand the Prothean language, after all (unless, am I wrong about this?).

I thought it was the other way around. XD Asari leech information from our minds, and we just embrace eternity and like it. But if she can't understand the message on Ilos, then no, I guess she doesn't have the Cipher. Would Shiala be able to give it to her, like she gave it to Shepard -- and can I watch? 8D

I don't think there's any reason Shiala couldn't pass along the Cipher to other humans and asari (and turians), she's demonstrated that she can pass it to humans and turians, and I can't imagine there would be anything preventing her from passing it to another asari. If anything, I think it would be easier. Actually, Shiala may have inadvertently passed it along to everyone she's "embraced eternity" with since she was released from the Thorian's control.

[Erani]

Siansonea II wrote...

FenrisDeSolar wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...


I don't know, I always got the impression that humans could "download" from an asari, but not "upload", if that makes sense. And I don't think the asari mind-meld is always a case of the asari and human copying each others' entire minds into the other person à la Rogue from the X-Men. I felt like Shiala had to do something special to give Shepard the Cipher, but that Shepard wasn't necessarily able to give the Cipher to Liara. Liara doesn't understand the security terminal message on Ilos, where Shepard realizes that he/she can understand the Prothean language, after all (unless, am I wrong about this?).

I thought it was the other way around. XD Asari leech information from our minds, and we just embrace eternity and like it. But if she can't understand the message on Ilos, then no, I guess she doesn't have the Cipher. Would Shiala be able to give it to her, like she gave it to Shepard -- and can I watch? 8D

I don't think there's any reason Shiala couldn't pass along the Cipher to other humans and asari (and turians), she's demonstrated that she can pass it to humans and turians, and I can't imagine there would be anything preventing her from passing it to another asari. If anything, I think it would be easier. Actually, Shiala may have inadvertently passed it along to everyone she's "embraced eternity" with since she was released from the Thorian's control.

I got the feeling she wanted to "embrace eternity" with Shepard again, from her dialogue in ME2. She was like "you know...some other time we could....(insert embrace eternity)" LOL:P

[jlb524]

Siansonea II wrote...

I don't think there's any reason Shiala couldn't pass along the Cipher to other humans and asari (and turians), she's demonstrated that she can pass it to humans and turians, and I can't imagine there would be anything preventing her from passing it to another asari. If anything, I think it would be easier. Actually, Shiala may have inadvertently passed it along to everyone she's "embraced eternity" with since she was released from the Thorian's control.

She needs to practice safer sex.

[FenrisDeSolar]

Siansonea II wrote...

I don't think there's any reason Shiala couldn't pass along the Cipher to other humans and asari (and turians), she's demonstrated that she can pass it to humans and turians, and I can't imagine there would be anything preventing her from passing it to another asari. If anything, I think it would be easier. Actually, Shiala may have inadvertently passed it along to everyone she's "embraced eternity" with since she was released from the Thorian's control.

...that is a very interesting thought. Surely if a lot more people had the Cipher, sooner or later they would start pointing out the holes in the Protheans' history? That could be a pretty cool thing to see in a Mass Effect game. I always wanted to know more about the Protheans anyway. XD

[Siansonea]

FenrisDeSolar wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

I don't think there's any reason Shiala couldn't pass along the Cipher to other humans and asari (and turians), she's demonstrated that she can pass it to humans and turians, and I can't imagine there would be anything preventing her from passing it to another asari. If anything, I think it would be easier. Actually, Shiala may have inadvertently passed it along to everyone she's "embraced eternity" with since she was released from the Thorian's control.

...that is a very interesting thought. Surely if a lot more people had the Cipher, sooner or later they would start pointing out the holes in the Protheans' history? That could be a pretty cool thing to see in a Mass Effect game. I always wanted to know more about the Protheans anyway. XD

I've always wondered if the Prothean race could be "restored" by using the Cipher on the Collectors, after somehow ridding them of Indoctrination, of course. But that's reeeeally off-topic.

On-topic: Do not want a Collector as an LI option, s/s or otherwise...

[Lord Atlia]

@JLB524's question from a few pages back:

I felt that the DA2's romances were bad simply from the lack of restrictions. I think Alistair is the perfect example of how a romance should play out simply because he has realistic restrictions. He will only have a romance with a female PC and will only marry a female human noble (I'm actually not sure if he will marry a human mage or not) PC. This is realistic, no matter how much he loves a dwarf or elf PC the political fallout would be too great. Perhaps it is because I've played visual novels with dozens of flags but I find most romance subplots too "easy," it is simply pick the love option x times and boom you are in love followed by a sex scene, no matter how much of douche you could have been it matters not. Romance should be like an easter egg if your PC fulfills certain criteria it springs forth naturally as the PC and NPC mesh. However Bioware's current route gives too much power to the PC, it is simply if you want to have sex with character x you can by pressing the heart icon. It is cheesed to the extent now that I would rather they just cut them and add a new character with all the dialogue saved.

[Erani]

 Yes, please no collector LI  They are evil and look like weird insects.

Edit: sorry, spoilers.

Modifié par Erani, 19 mai 2011 - 05:14 .

[ipgd]

Lord Atlia wrote...

@JLB524's question from a few pages back:

I felt that the DA2's romances were bad simply from the lack of restrictions. I think Alistair is the perfect example of how a romance should play out simply because he has realistic restrictions. He will only have a romance with a female PC and will only marry a female human noble (I'm actually not sure if he will marry a human mage or not) PC. This is realistic, no matter how much he loves a dwarf or elf PC the political fallout would be too great. Perhaps it is because I've played visual novels with dozens of flags but I find most romance subplots too "easy," it is simply pick the love option x times and boom you are in love followed by a sex scene, no matter how much of douche you could have been it matters not. Romance should be like an easter egg if your PC fulfills certain criteria it springs forth naturally as the PC and NPC mesh. However Bioware's current route gives too much power to the PC, it is simply if you want to have sex with character x you can by pressing the heart icon. It is cheesed to the extent now that I would rather they just cut them and add a new character with all the dialogue saved.

But DAO was already exactly like that, just not clearly marked as DA2 was. There were certain lines that would activate the particular character's romance flag (i.e. heart lines), and certain lines that would clear the romance flag (i.e. broken heart lines), but you could otherwise be as much of an ass as you want as long as you had enough dog bones to move the companion above the approval thresholds necessary to trigger the romance/sex scenes.

I'm not sure how ME1/2 operate on a functional level but I assume it's similar.

[Siansonea]

Erani wrote...

 Yes, please no collector LI  They are evil and look like weird insects.

Edit: sorry, spoilers.

I saw your post before you edited it, and I don't think Mordin knows about the Cipher, it wasn't common knowledge, after all.

On-topic: What species that is not currently available as an LI would make sense as a new alien LI (whether s/s, bi, or o/s)?

[jlb524]

Lord Atlia wrote...

@JLB524's question from a few pages back:

I felt that the DA2's romances were bad simply from the lack of restrictions. I think Alistair is the perfect example of how a romance should play out simply because he has realistic restrictions. He will only have a romance with a female PC and will only marry a female human noble (I'm actually not sure if he will marry a human mage or not) PC. This is realistic, no matter how much he loves a dwarf or elf PC the political fallout would be too great. Perhaps it is because I've played visual novels with dozens of flags but I find most romance subplots too "easy," it is simply pick the love option x times and boom you are in love followed by a sex scene, no matter how much of douche you could have been it matters not. Romance should be like an easter egg if your PC fulfills certain criteria it springs forth naturally as the PC and NPC mesh. However Bioware's current route gives too much power to the PC, it is simply if you want to have sex with character x you can by pressing the heart icon. It is cheesed to the extent now that I would rather they just cut them and add a new character with all the dialogue saved.

I guess they could always go back to the Baldur's Gate 2 method and add in strict gender, race, and alignment restrictions to romances.  Of course, there are also tons of mods created to bypass these b/c it seems people like to do those romances the way they want (for instance, Viconia in BG2 wouldn't romance elves).

They've moved away from this in practically every game they've made since BG2, removing every restriction except for gender (until DA2).  The Alistair romances is probably the only exception, but you can still romance him even if you are a dwarf (you just don't get the super happy fun marriage ending). 

ipgd wrote...

I'm not sure how ME1/2 operate on a functional level but I assume it's similar.

It's actually worse, as there isn't even a seperate 'Shepard approval' bar for each companion.  Therefore, you can do whatever outside of romance dialog but as long as you make the proper dialog choices when it counts, it's all good.

Basically, romance without any consequences.  Whereas, with DA2, if you remained neutral on the friend/rival bar, you couldn't romance them period.

Modifié par jlb524, 19 mai 2011 - 05:20 .

[FenrisDeSolar]

Siansonea II wrote...

I've always wondered if the Prothean race could be "restored" by using the Cipher on the Collectors, after somehow ridding them of Indoctrination, of course. But that's reeeeally off-topic.

On-topic: Do not want a Collector as an LI option, s/s or otherwise...

What about a Reaper for a s/s romance?

[Madi]

Announcement isn't surprising at all. Bi companion characters are mandatory now. It adds nothing positive to the game for me but it is what it is. I hope it doesn't have anything to do with why the game has been delayed. I also really really really hope they don't go the absurd Dragon Age II route with this.

[ipgd]

Siansonea II wrote...

On-topic: What species that is not currently available as an LI would make sense as a new alien LI (whether s/s, bi, or o/s)?

Hanar. Available to Asian female Shepards only.

HehehehehehehekekekekekekeHOHOHOHO.

[Siansonea]

ipgd wrote...

Lord Atlia wrote...

@JLB524's question from a few pages back:

I felt that the DA2's romances were bad simply from the lack of restrictions. I think Alistair is the perfect example of how a romance should play out simply because he has realistic restrictions. He will only have a romance with a female PC and will only marry a female human noble (I'm actually not sure if he will marry a human mage or not) PC. This is realistic, no matter how much he loves a dwarf or elf PC the political fallout would be too great. Perhaps it is because I've played visual novels with dozens of flags but I find most romance subplots too "easy," it is simply pick the love option x times and boom you are in love followed by a sex scene, no matter how much of douche you could have been it matters not. Romance should be like an easter egg if your PC fulfills certain criteria it springs forth naturally as the PC and NPC mesh. However Bioware's current route gives too much power to the PC, it is simply if you want to have sex with character x you can by pressing the heart icon. It is cheesed to the extent now that I would rather they just cut them and add a new character with all the dialogue saved.

But DAO was already exactly like that, just not clearly marked as DA2 was. There were certain lines that would activate the particular character's romance flag (i.e. heart lines), and certain lines that would clear the romance flag (i.e. broken heart lines), but you could otherwise be as much of an ass as you want as long as you had enough dog bones to move the companion above the approval thresholds necessary to trigger the romance/sex scenes.

I'm not sure how ME1/2 operate on a functional level but I assume it's similar.

This is why Jeweldleah's suggestion from a few pages back makes sense. Have the heart icons/colored text, etc., be a gameplay option that you can turn on and off, so you can choose whether you want to play the game without knowing for sure if you're doing the romance stuff correctly, or you want the clear indicators to show intent beforehand.

[Ryzaki]

I want Harbinger as an LI

[Servo to the bitter end]

Madi wrote...

Announcement isn't surprising at all. Bi companion characters are mandatory now. It adds nothing positive to the game for me but it is what it is. I hope it doesn't have anything to do with why the game has been delayed. I also really really really hope they don't go the absurd Dragon Age II route with this.

Honestly, I think Skyrim/GoW3/MW3 has more to do with it being delayed.

I maintain that it adds lots of positive to the game for everyone. More options make for more satisfying gameplay and more relateable characters.