6696 réponses à ce sujet

[Servo to the bitter end]

Clonedzero wrote...
it hasnt been an option for shepard since day one. thats kinda why them adding it in is such a big deal...

sure you could refuse to romance female characters as a male shepard and say shepard is gay but its not really the case. i mean i can play a zelda game and pretend Link is gay, doesnt make it true.

now you can be gay shepard.  you can't say it was an option if it wasn't in either mass effect at all so far, sure you can pretend but that doesnt make it an actual option. lets not kid ourselves here lol. if its not in the game its not an option of the game.

Or I can make a female Commander Shepard - who is the same character, because there is only one Shepard - and express interest in or romantically pursue

-Liara
-Kelly
-Samara

As well as a tryst with the Consort.

What existed was a massive double standard. They are now expanding the parameters of the character to make it more consistent. Yeah, the option wasn't available, but looking back, there is no reason why that can't be explained as anything other than "no one was available to reciprocate." Making it an option now does not contradict anything.

This is entirely in keeping with the idea that existing characters aren't being re-written to be something they're not. We're not talking about Kaidan or anyone else - just Shepard.

And Link - or any other character that truly is "pre-defined" - is an awful comparison. There are dozens of different potential commander Shepards, with as many different opinions, histories, interrelational dynamics, etc. There's only one Link.

Modifié par TommyServo, 19 mai 2011 - 06:19 .

[Erani]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

now you can be gay shepard.  you can't say it was an option if it wasn't in either mass effect at all so far, sure you can pretend but that doesnt make it an actual option. lets not kid ourselves here lol. if its not in the game its not an option of the game.

Didn't have biotic charge, combat drones, the Revenant in ME1, either.

RETCON!

LOL imagine the outrage if the Revenant were removed! Hah

[ADLegend21]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

now you can be gay shepard.  you can't say it was an option if it wasn't in either mass effect at all so far, sure you can pretend but that doesnt make it an actual option. lets not kid ourselves here lol. if its not in the game its not an option of the game.

Didn't have biotic charge, combat drones, the Revenant in ME1, either.

RETCON!

don't forget power armor, cloaking, or adrenaline rushing. 

RETCON.

[CroGamer002]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

I really, really hope the new token human female LI is exclusively lesbian. Just for fun.

And she must be hot to ****** me off.

[jeweledleah]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

now you can be gay shepard.  you can't say it was an option if it wasn't in either mass effect at all so far, sure you can pretend but that doesnt make it an actual option. lets not kid ourselves here lol. if its not in the game its not an option of the game.

Didn't have biotic charge, combat drones, the Revenant in ME1, either.

RETCON!

actualy ... it is.  as are heat clips, heavy armor for adept Shepards, losing your ability to carry all weapons (which is being added back in, at least) and a slew of other things.

not all retcons are bad, however, it doesn't make them any less retcony

[CroGamer002]

ADLegend21 wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

now you can be gay shepard.  you can't say it was an option if it wasn't in either mass effect at all so far, sure you can pretend but that doesnt make it an actual option. lets not kid ourselves here lol. if its not in the game its not an option of the game.

Didn't have biotic charge, combat drones, the Revenant in ME1, either.

RETCON!

don't forget power armor, cloaking, or adrenaline rushing. 

RETCON.

Isn't that a plothole?


No matter, EA is evil!
Wait...

[RetroActiv]

Aniki_21 wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Thanks for proving my points guys.

edit: and girls, ofc

If you don't support S/S romances you are a bigot. Plain and simple. It's just like if you didn't want Jacob in the game because you don't like black people. It's EXACTLY the same thing. 

.....seriously?

[Erani]

Errr guys? it's really hard to detect sarcasm so let's stay on topic.

[Centauri2002]

Come on, folks, let's not go over the same old arguments over and over again. Particularly since we're basically the same group of people who were arguing it earlier in the thread. Let's move on. If there's nothing new to say, then perhaps it's best we left the topic alone until new information is released.

[Siona]

ADLegend21 wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

now you can be gay shepard.  you can't say it was an option if it wasn't in either mass effect at all so far, sure you can pretend but that doesnt make it an actual option. lets not kid ourselves here lol. if its not in the game its not an option of the game.

Didn't have biotic charge, combat drones, the Revenant in ME1, either.

RETCON!

don't forget power armor, cloaking, or adrenaline rushing. 

RETCON.

There were no drell in ME1!

RETCON.

[AdmiralCheez]

RetroActiv wrote...

.....seriously?

Kind of, yeah.

Just replace "gay" with "Muslim," "black," or "vegetarian."

Person One: I would like to be able to make Shepard black in ME3.
Person Two: Nooooo that isn't Shepard's character, would disrupt continuity, and I find it offensive!

[ipgd]

Clonedzero wrote...

sure you could refuse to romance female characters as a male shepard and say shepard is gay but its not really the case. i mean i can play a zelda game and pretend Link is gay, doesnt make it true.

It's not the same thing. Link is not a malleable CRPG protagonist. You can't define anything about his character, other than his name. You can define many things about Shepard, and it's similarly absurd that his sexuality should be the one thing that is off limits when there are roleplaying avenues that support or at least do not impede that interpretation (i.e. bisexual Shepard, celibate gay Shepard).

[Clonedzero]

Siansonea II wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

yeah its disgusting how if you think rewriting existing characters is wrong that the people in this thread label you a bigot.

they're the most intolerant ones here.

I don't know, I think if you're clear in your specific objections, and they're based on rational concepts, then people are generally responsive in a fair way. Of course if you can't communicate those ideas effectively or are frequently misunderstood, it's possible that your communication style is just poor writing.

Or, if you're trying to cloak an intolerant attitude with false logic, you can run into some rather unsupportive sentiments as well. It's all situational.

you know, all ive said was i didnt want established characters rewritten and retcons and all you've done is give me a hard time and acted like a douche. its kind of annoying.

and yes. a character suddenly revealing that they're bi/gay is stupid and silly. its stupid and silly when it happens in real life too.  also without an option to act disgusted and hate themf or it, them hiding it makes no sense, if the entire reason they were hiding it was because people arent accepting of it still, then people should still have the option to not accept it because if youre just like "oh ok" then it makes the entire reveal kinda pointless and stupid. as it is in real life.

so seriously, please for the love of god. get off your high horse. only backwards ass hicks and cavedwellers care if you're bi/gay. everyone else is pretty apethetic towards it, i know i am.

im sorry if i care more about fictional characters being changed for no real important reason other to shut up some angsty fans. its unnecessary and silly. they can add in new characters to fill that void. thats all.

[Siona]

Clonedzero wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

yeah its disgusting how if you think rewriting existing characters is wrong that the people in this thread label you a bigot.

they're the most intolerant ones here.

I don't know, I think if you're clear in your specific objections, and they're based on rational concepts, then people are generally responsive in a fair way. Of course if you can't communicate those ideas effectively or are frequently misunderstood, it's possible that your communication style is just poor writing.

Or, if you're trying to cloak an intolerant attitude with false logic, you can run into some rather unsupportive sentiments as well. It's all situational.

you know, all ive said was i didnt want established characters rewritten and retcons and all you've done is give me a hard time and acted like a douche. its kind of annoying.

and yes. a character suddenly revealing that they're bi/gay is stupid and silly. its stupid and silly when it happens in real life too.  also without an option to act disgusted and hate themf or it, them hiding it makes no sense, if the entire reason they were hiding it was because people arent accepting of it still, then people should still have the option to not accept it because if youre just like "oh ok" then it makes the entire reveal kinda pointless and stupid. as it is in real life.

so seriously, please for the love of god. get off your high horse. only backwards ass hicks and cavedwellers care if you're bi/gay. everyone else is pretty apethetic towards it, i know i am.

im sorry if i care more about fictional characters being changed for no real important reason other to shut up some angsty fans. its unnecessary and silly. they can add in new characters to fill that void. thats all.

There's no need to get snippy.

As for the calls of 'retcon', what retcon? Did we *ever* have a single character stand up and scream to the heavens 'I AM ONLY STRAIGHT AND WILL ONLY EVER DESIRE ____'? No? Yeah.

[Clonedzero]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

now you can be gay shepard.  you can't say it was an option if it wasn't in either mass effect at all so far, sure you can pretend but that doesnt make it an actual option. lets not kid ourselves here lol. if its not in the game its not an option of the game.

Didn't have biotic charge, combat drones, the Revenant in ME1, either.

RETCON!

way to completely miss the point rofl.
i wasnt saying it was wrong. wasn't saying its bad to add it in ME3. im saying it simply wasn't an actual option in the game. i didnt add in opinion at all to that post. good job projecting though.

[Erani]

@Clone, could we please get confirmation that old squad members are going to be bi in ME3 before starting flame wars over it and screaming retcon?
We know there are going to be new LIs, so let's wait on that before arguing needlessly.

[CroGamer002]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

RetroActiv wrote...

.....seriously?

Kind of, yeah.

Just replace "gay" with "Muslim," "black," or "vegetarian."

Person One: I would like to be able to make Shepard black in ME3.
Person Two: Nooooo that isn't Shepard's character, would disrupt continuity, and I find it offensive!

[Ryzaki]

RetroActiv wrote...

TheMarshal wrote...

RetroActiv wrote...

Which would make it neutral at best. I wasn't arguing that it's negative for everyone but simply disagreeing with the arguement that it's a  "positive" addition for everyone because is simply isn't. For a lot of people it's a useless addition that will add nothing to their gaming experience. 

But if something is neutral for a lot of people and positive for everyone else, doesn't that make it a net positive addition?

Not for the people who actively don't want the option. Personally it's kind of a negative thing for me because I'd much rather it be another option that I was remotely interested in . Obviously it's a possitive thing for you because you want it but that isn't the case for everyone.  

Look at it this way. 20% of the player base use FemShep (nowhere near a majority). Yet she has more than 40% of the available LIs. If you divide that up let's use 50% for a nice even number. That means she has 5 LIs being used by 20% of the player base. At best (assuming every LI is equal which they aren't). Each LI is only being used by 4% of the player base. 

That's not a high number in the least. Yet no one really wants FemShep to have no LIs. 

On the other hand opening some of those exclusive LIs o m/m means that the content would then be used by say potentially 8% of the player base (assuming only 4% of M!Sheps romance a MaleNPC). 

Resources wise the more people who see the content the better. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 mai 2011 - 06:30 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Clonedzero wrote...

way to completely miss the point rofl.
i wasnt saying it was wrong. wasn't saying its bad to add it in ME3. im saying it simply wasn't an actual option in the game. i didnt add in opinion at all to that post. good job projecting though.

And my point was that just because an option wasn't available in an earlier installment doesn't mean it can't be added later.  That's all.  And really, nothing wrong with "playing pretend" as you call it, since that's the point behind roleplay.

Thought I'd say "retcon" because all the cool kids are doing it.

[Siansonea]

RetroActiv wrote...

Aniki_21 wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Thanks for proving my points guys.

edit: and girls, ofc

If you don't support S/S romances you are a bigot. Plain and simple. It's just like if you didn't want Jacob in the game because you don't like black people. It's EXACTLY the same thing. 

.....seriously?

For what it's worth, I don't agree with that statement, it is an over-generalization. Extreme opposition to the idea, actively opposing inclusion, is not the same as not being thrilled by it but generally okay with it. But we're not here to debate that.

[ipgd]

jeweledleah wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

now you can be gay shepard.  you can't say it was an option if it wasn't in either mass effect at all so far, sure you can pretend but that doesnt make it an actual option. lets not kid ourselves here lol. if its not in the game its not an option of the game.

Didn't have biotic charge, combat drones, the Revenant in ME1, either.

RETCON!

actualy ... it is.  as are heat clips, heavy armor for adept Shepards, losing your ability to carry all weapons (which is being added back in, at least) and a slew of other things.

not all retcons are bad, however, it doesn't make them any less retcony

Again, "retcon" does not mean "any change I don't like". For something to be a retcon, it has to directly contradict previously established facts of the continuity. Heat clips, for example, are not a retcon, because they do not contradict the existence of clipless guns; it is explained directly within the game why heat clips are now being used when they were not previously, and it does not suggest that the guns in ME1 were using heat clips all long. It's a gameplay motivated change, clearly, but not all changes are retcons. For a change to be a retcon it has to deliberately contradict and erase the existence of a previously established fact. Keyword: RETROACTIVE.


And yes, this is an entirely semantic argument but retcon is still a useful word that would benefit from being used correctly instead of being bandied about inappropriately until it becomes entirely meaningless.

Modifié par ipgd, 19 mai 2011 - 06:29 .

[Servo to the bitter end]

Clonedzero wrote...

way to completely miss the point rofl.
i wasnt saying it was wrong. wasn't saying its bad to add it in ME3. im saying it simply wasn't an actual option in the game. i didnt add in opinion at all to that post. good job projecting though.

What about a different but similar situation? What if they add a new race in ME3 that previously had no representation anywhere in the first two games? They're written into the plot, and there's nothing to either suggest or contradict their existence in the previous installments. Would you have a problem with that?

It's the same thing. And again - I'm not talking about any characters other than Shepard.

[Clonedzero]

Siona wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

yeah its disgusting how if you think rewriting existing characters is wrong that the people in this thread label you a bigot.

they're the most intolerant ones here.

I don't know, I think if you're clear in your specific objections, and they're based on rational concepts, then people are generally responsive in a fair way. Of course if you can't communicate those ideas effectively or are frequently misunderstood, it's possible that your communication style is just poor writing.

Or, if you're trying to cloak an intolerant attitude with false logic, you can run into some rather unsupportive sentiments as well. It's all situational.

you know, all ive said was i didnt want established characters rewritten and retcons and all you've done is give me a hard time and acted like a douche. its kind of annoying.

and yes. a character suddenly revealing that they're bi/gay is stupid and silly. its stupid and silly when it happens in real life too.  also without an option to act disgusted and hate themf or it, them hiding it makes no sense, if the entire reason they were hiding it was because people arent accepting of it still, then people should still have the option to not accept it because if youre just like "oh ok" then it makes the entire reveal kinda pointless and stupid. as it is in real life.

so seriously, please for the love of god. get off your high horse. only backwards ass hicks and cavedwellers care if you're bi/gay. everyone else is pretty apethetic towards it, i know i am.

im sorry if i care more about fictional characters being changed for no real important reason other to shut up some angsty fans. its unnecessary and silly. they can add in new characters to fill that void. thats all.

There's no need to get snippy.

As for the calls of 'retcon', what retcon? Did we *ever* have a single character stand up and scream to the heavens 'I AM ONLY STRAIGHT AND WILL ONLY EVER DESIRE ____'? No? Yeah.

again. the SINGLE WORST ARGUEMENT EVER.

why would anyone on the crew hide that from shepard for the entire series? its silly and stupid.  either its widely accepted in teh ME universe (which is the most logical conclusion) so they'd have no reason to hide it. or its still shunned by bigots and you'd have to give the option to the player to be a bigot which i guess you'd hate (before you say anything, no i wouldnt react that way lol).

reminds me of when my old highschool friend got super emotional and came out to me, and i reacted with "ok, cool, i think we better hurry or we're gonna be late to meet up with jimmy and sarah" then he got all mad cus i didnt care. which i dunno i dont understand, i didnt think it was a big deal.

them adding that to a character adds a big story bit to them as they'd have to include why'd they'd hide that from shepard all thsi time and blah blah, why have some stupid melo-dramatic coming out plot-line when you could have something actually interesting instead and keep the characters the way they are? its completely unnecessary.

[Russalka]

Clonedzero wrote...

again. the SINGLE WORST ARGUEMENT EVER.

why would anyone on the crew hide that from shepard for the entire series? its silly and stupid.  either its widely accepted in teh ME universe (which is the most logical conclusion) so they'd have no reason to hide it. or its still shunned by bigots and you'd have to give the option to the player to be a bigot which i guess you'd hate (before you say anything, no i wouldnt react that way lol).

Maybe nobody cares and it is never needed to be said.

[AdmiralCheez]

@Clonedzero: Not everybody runs around like I do openly declaring their sexuality.

GUYS GUYS EVERYBODY I AM A BISEXUAL ISN'T THAT COOL?!

Seriously, with a lot of characters, the topic was never brought up. It'd be like claiming that it's impossible for Shepard to like strawberry ice cream because only chocolate was available in ME1.