6696 réponses à ce sujet

[Siansonea]

ipgd wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

ipgd wrote...
A "gay toggle" would be offensive in the same exact way to LGBT people/supporters.

And some people find homosexual acts offensive, or just don't like the idea of pre-existing characters being rewritten as bisexual. Saying "They're bigots" isn't a justification to avoid any sort of compromise like an option at the start of the game.

That's the problem. The compromise is inherently offensive. It legitimizes the concerns and opinions of people who find homosexuality to be objectional. It sends the message that "we think the opinion that homosexuality is offensive has value and is worth considering, and we are willing to accommodate those people".

The implementation of the toggle has so little affect on the game itself that its inclusion would be almost an entirely ideological one, hence the ideological objection. The current system works fine. If you don't want to have gay sex, don't.

You know what though? Let's leave it up to BioWare. We'll present our viewpoint, that it's offensive, that it caters to a backward and offensive mindset, and they'll present their viewpoint. BioWare will decide. We can debate this until the cows come home, but we're not making the call. BioWare isn't waiting for us to finish our debate to make a decision. They've probably already made it, and are rolling their eyes at us for nattering on about this for so many pages.

Hey BioWare! Yeah, some people here want a toggle, at the beginning of the game, to turn off ManShepard's Sex Up A Dude dialog options. A lot of us think that's redundant and pretty offensive. But it's your call. Thank you though for your decision to include more same-sex options in ME3 though, that was really cool of you and a lot of us really appreciate it.

[ipgd]

JetsoverEverything wrote...

Polliot wrote...

Didn't you ever think that by comparing black people with gay people,you actually insult black people?
And I also think that sexuality is not comparable to race.

yes i found it very insulting. why do they keep bringing my race into this discussion?

and since when was having a different sexual preference genetic???

Don't keep up with science, do you?

It's probably either that, hormonal imbalances in the womb or a combination of those factors, but all evidence suggests that homosexuality is an ingrained, immutable trait. Gay men and lesbian women even have different brain structures from their heterosexual counterparts.

[PlumPaul93]

Russalka wrote...

People are born gay.

If that's the case then why would people want characters who have never shown signs that they are gay be made gay in ME3? What did for example kaidan just now realize he was born gay? . PS is this just a thread about S/S romance, or is this a thread about the romances in general?

[Inquisitor Recon]

ipgd wrote...
That's the problem. The compromise is inherently offensive. It legitimizes the concerns and opinions of people who find homosexuality to be objectional. It sends the message that "we think the opinion that homosexuality is offensive has value and is worth considering, and we are willing to accommodate those people".

The implementation of the toggle has so little affect on the game itself that its inclusion would be almost an entirely ideological one, hence the ideological objection. The current system works fine. If you don't want to have gay sex, don't.

That's an excuse if I ever heard one. Who are you or Bioware to determine the validity of people's opinions? Why shouldn't they try to accommodate the largest number of customers possible? After all, that was your groups whole argument back when you where demanding this. The current system does not work fine if it going to be like DA2 or if old characters are going to be made bisexual.

[Siansonea]

Guys! Real-world attitudes toward homosexuality are off-topic, remember? Hate to be all moddy and whatnot, I know I don't like it when other people do it, but gee whiz.

[Erani]

I wonder if being in a relationship with one of the permanent squad members, such as Kaidan or Liara, will have any impact on flirting/trying to start a romance with one of the new LIs, like will they recognize you are already with someone.

[paptschik]

Russalka wrote...

People are born gay.

Ignoring for the fact that I am in favor of s/s relationships in bioware games...which is it now?
Because numerous times there has been the argument that "people change, they can become gay/bi"...how is one to think of that change?
Are people born gay, but, for the lack of a better metaphor, it's like mutations in X-Men in that they're straight until one day BAM - they are gay?

This may sound silly and provocative, but, seriously...as someone that doesn't know gay people, I just don't know how this would work and would like to know.

[MACharlie1]

Erani wrote...

I wonder if being in a relationship with one of the permanent squad members, such as Kaidan or Liara, will have any impact on flirting/trying to start a romance with one of the new LIs, like will they recognize you are already with someone.

Better not...otherwise going to have to do some save game editing. <_<

[Russalka]

They are still accommodating the largest number of customers. You still have straight romances. Most people don't care about there being gay options.

[Jademoon121]

ReconTeam wrote...

ipgd wrote...
That's the problem. The compromise is inherently offensive. It legitimizes the concerns and opinions of people who find homosexuality to be objectional. It sends the message that "we think the opinion that homosexuality is offensive has value and is worth considering, and we are willing to accommodate those people".

The implementation of the toggle has so little affect on the game itself that its inclusion would be almost an entirely ideological one, hence the ideological objection. The current system works fine. If you don't want to have gay sex, don't.

That's an excuse if I ever heard one. Who are you or Bioware to determine the validity of people's opinions? Why shouldn't they try to accommodate the largest number of customers possible? After all, that was your groups whole argument back when you where demanding this. The current system does not work fine if it going to be like DA2 or if old characters are going to be made bisexual.

They already ARE accomodating the largest numbers of customers, or have you not played the last two games? And no one is going to be made bisexual, you're underestemating the power of quality writing.

[Black Raptor]

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

Russalka wrote...

People are born gay.

If that's the case then why would people want characters who have never shown signs that they are gay be made gay in ME3? What did for example kaidan just now realize he was born gay? . PS is this just a thread about S/S romance, or is this a thread about the romances in general?

The only thing that says he isn't gay is a potential relationship with femshep. If that is the case, then he can't be gay for that playthrough. 
If you play as a male, there is nothing to say he isn't gay other than the fact he doesn't feel the need to initiate a relationship yet. 
He could still be bi. Basically the gender and dialogue choices chosen by the player will determine the sexual orientation of a LI. 

[Inquisitor Recon]

ipgd wrote...
why would someone who doesn't believe there's anything wrong with being gay think it's offensive to compare gay people to black people

Many black individuals would find such a comparison offensive however. Guess they're all bigots too if they have moral objections to homosexuality, right?

[MACharlie1]

paptschik wrote...

Russalka wrote...

People are born gay.

Ignoring for the fact that I am in favor of s/s relationships in bioware games...which is it now?
Because numerous times there has been the argument that "people change, they can become gay/bi"...how is one to think of that change?
Are people born gay, but, for the lack of a better metaphor, it's like mutations in X-Men in that they're straight until one day BAM - they are gay?

This may sound silly and provocative, but, seriously...as someone that doesn't know gay people, I just don't know how this would work and would like to know.

I believe when it's said that people change, it's a change of mindset towards it or Shepard. It's no secret that a good portion of homosexuals are closeted or if they aren't, simply won't go through with one or something of that nature. *cough* 

[Jademoon121]

paptschik wrote...

Russalka wrote...

People are born gay.

Ignoring for the fact that I am in favor of s/s relationships in bioware games...which is it now?
Because numerous times there has been the argument that "people change, they can become gay/bi"...how is one to think of that change?
Are people born gay, but, for the lack of a better metaphor, it's like mutations in X-Men in that they're straight until one day BAM - they are gay?

This may sound silly and provocative, but, seriously...as someone that doesn't know gay people, I just don't know how this would work and would like to know.

Born in a straight household with straight parents, raised by a straight family, and I still like other guys. I'm pretty sure it's biological.

[Centauri2002]

Come on people, we're way off topic here. If you don't want to talk about the game, just go elsewhere. This isn't the place for political debate and the topic is straying into the offensive. Have a little respect for both the forum rules and each other, please.

[Erani]

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

Russalka wrote...

People are born gay.

If that's the case then why would people want characters who have never shown signs that they are gay be made gay in ME3? What did for example kaidan just now realize he was born gay? . PS is this just a thread about S/S romance, or is this a thread about the romances in general?

s/s romances in ME3, and there isn't any information confirming that Kaidan is going to be bi in ME3. Please wait until more info is released to start arguments over it. 
If Kaidan does turn out to be a bi LI in ME3, I'm sure BioWare will develop the relationship in a mature manner and give us an explanation that makes sense for why he didn't express his feelings sooner.

[ipgd]

ReconTeam wrote...

That's an excuse if I ever heard one. Who are you or Bioware to determine the validity of people's opinions? Why shouldn't they try to accommodate the largest number of customers possible? After all, that was your groups whole argument back when you where demanding this. The current system does not work fine if it going to be like DA2 or if old characters are going to be made bisexual.

It's up to Bioware to decide, but I know for a fact that this compromise would just offend the LGBT crowd and certainly not satisfy the anti-s/s  people, who will not be happy unless s/s entirely removed. So the change is pointless from a standpoint of ideological appeasement, since it would accomplish absolutely nothing for them other than to ****** pro-s/s people off, and from a functional standpoint, it's pointless as the possibility to turn down s/s romances already exists in the series as is.

We know nothing about how the s/s is going to be handled, so basing arguments on that is also pointless.

[MACharlie1]

ReconTeam wrote...

ipgd wrote...
why would someone who doesn't believe there's anything wrong with being gay think it's offensive to compare gay people to black people

Many black individuals would find such a comparison offensive however. Guess they're all bigots too if they have moral objections to homosexuality, right?

I'm still itching to know WHY it's morally wrong...because if sex is just to create babies then all of Shepards romances have to be thrown out and have a toggle for it. 

[Siansonea]

 So, Centauri, how about that James Vega for m/m, sounds like he'll be hot stuff, amirite? 

Modifié par Siansonea II, 19 mai 2011 - 11:56 .

[Jademoon121]

ReconTeam wrote...

ipgd wrote...
why would someone who doesn't believe there's anything wrong with being gay think it's offensive to compare gay people to black people

Many black individuals would find such a comparison offensive however. Guess they're all bigots too if they have moral objections to homosexuality, right?

The black community is known for their intolerance for homosexuals. An anchor on CNN came out at the age of 45, re read that, 45, because he was afraid on how his community will react.
There is no moral objections to homosexuality that doesn't rest on sand. A bigot is a bigot.

[paptschik]

MACharlie1 wrote...

JetsoverEverything wrote...

Polliot wrote...

Didn't you ever think that by comparing black people with gay people,you actually insult black people?
And I also think that sexuality is not comparable to race.

yes i found it very insulting. why do they keep bringing my race into this discussion?

and since when was having a different sexual preference genetic???

It's pretty much an accepted scientific fact that everyone's preference is biologically based. And there is ongoing research into it being genetic.

I'm so sorry for the off-topic, really, but I just want to know this now...how far does that go?
What I mean is, is the fact that I dig asians and bodypainting and funny skinned aliens and that I love Uma Thurman and what not....how much of that is biology?

For that matter, I love broccoli and hate tomatoes...is something like THAT genetic?

[Inquisitor Recon]

Jademoon121 wrote...
They already ARE accomodating the largest numbers of customers, or have you not played the last two games? And no one is going to be made bisexual, you're underestemating the power of quality writing.

Are you implying Bioware won't take the DA2 route, or that they will justify it with "they were bisexual the whole time"?

[Russalka]

paptschik wrote...

Ignoring for the fact that I am in favor of s/s relationships in bioware games...which is it now?
Because numerous times there has been the argument that "people change, they can become gay/bi"...how is one to think of that change?
Are people born gay, but, for the lack of a better metaphor, it's like mutations in X-Men in that they're straight until one day BAM - they are gay?

This may sound silly and provocative, but, seriously...as someone that doesn't know gay people, I just don't know how this would work and would like to know.

I'll reply to this and the other post raising this question.

The "people change" argument was weak to me. But people can show other sexual tendencies later in life, which I guess has either been supressed by demands from the society or other factors. People are raised in the way some people think they are supposed to feel. But it can be anything, some people just haven't the proper sexual education to truly know what they want. Some people supress it without knowing. There are many possiblities.

Some turn out to be bisexual, others discover they have never been truly attracted to the opposite gender or even maybe same gender. Some are just asexual.

And the homosexuality curing some Christian groups are advocating do not work. They bring much grief to the people there and there are rather famous cases of prominent supporters turning out to be just pretending.

But this is off-topic. Sorru.

Modifié par Russalka, 19 mai 2011 - 11:58 .

[Black Raptor]

ReconTeam wrote...

ipgd wrote...
That's the problem. The compromise is inherently offensive. It legitimizes the concerns and opinions of people who find homosexuality to be objectional. It sends the message that "we think the opinion that homosexuality is offensive has value and is worth considering, and we are willing to accommodate those people".

The implementation of the toggle has so little affect on the game itself that its inclusion would be almost an entirely ideological one, hence the ideological objection. The current system works fine. If you don't want to have gay sex, don't.

That's an excuse if I ever heard one. Who are you or Bioware to determine the validity of people's opinions? Why shouldn't they try to accommodate the largest number of customers possible? After all, that was your groups whole argument back when you where demanding this. The current system does not work fine if it going to be like DA2 or if old characters are going to be made bisexual.

The value of an opinion is supported by the strength of the argument supporting that viewpoint. Hence why your opinion is invalid. 

And the characters won't be bi. If you play as a male, then Miranda won't be having a relationship with a femshep. 

[thatguy212]

I think something that most people here can agree on is that the same sex romance should be treated the same as any other romance, they shouldn't make a big deal about the fact that its two guy or two girls, its just two people that are attracted to each other just like the other romances