6696 réponses à ce sujet

[tishyw]

SalsaDMA wrote...

tishyw wrote...

A - You have no idea what my view on including the old characters as same sex love interest is, so it was just a reflex attack on someone who used one word that made you decide that they might have a different opinion to you.

B - This argument had been done to death on this thread, we know where you stand, you don't need to keep bashing people over the head with it.  All that's doing is alienating people like me who are neutral about the whole thing!

You don't have to fight everyone, not all of us are atacking you're views.

Didn't you know? Reflex attacks are the 'new black' in this thread.

Please don't use my post as a means to attack others.  We ARE NOT allies!

[Servo to the bitter end]

wheelyjon wrote...

Black Raptor good idea which should be pointed out more, it is a story after all we are not dealing with real people here shock horror lol as long as they write it well so it fits the LI's personaly

This has been my take ever since I started thinking about the topic.

These are characters written by writers (who have proven themselves in the past to be pretty capable). Personally, I don't think consistency matters for characters across all possible story arcs - just consistency for any given story arc. I can allow for a gay Ashley in one game and a straight one in another and a dead one in yet another, because any given savegame is occupied by a different cast of characters, with different personalities, different character arcs, and frequently, different fates.

Modifié par TommyServo, 20 mai 2011 - 03:00 .

[XX55XX]

This is a repost from my post in the Tali thread:

I personally do not disapprove of bisexuality or homosexuality in video games at all. Given the movement towards sexual emancipation over the past few decades in Western society, I think featuring bisexuality and homosexuality in a video game would rouse the least amount of controversy (given how this board loves everything BioWare), but the key issue here is that BioWare appears ready to ret-con the sexuality of many major characters - characters we are emotionally invested in - for the sake of satisfying this social zeitgeist that necessitates the portrayal of bisexuality and homosexuality in the media.

If Tali had been homosexual or bisexual to begin with, I see no issue. However, for BioWare to go out of their way to satisfy a minority of gamers on this board - breaking narrative continuity in process, is a very sad thing, and something which I wholeheartedly disapprove of.

The issue lies not in that some of us are uncomfortable with homosexuality or bisexuality (admittedly, a very small minority of us are), but in that ret-cons are the least satisfactory way of giving gamers of various sexual orientations "more options," so to speak.

They can easily make Joker homosexual. That new James Vega? He could be homosexual too. What about Kelly? Why not expand on her a bit? What about Mordin, Grunt, etc? They too could be homosexual. What Zaeed? BioWare has the option of giving gamers more options without ret-conning anyone.

In short, BioWare can satisfy everyone's desires very easily with new characters and not have to retcon anyone.

Modifié par XX55XX, 20 mai 2011 - 03:02 .

[SalsaDMA]

Ciryx wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Again you are just reading what you want to read rather than what I actually write.

If anything, you're the one making hatespeeches instead of discussing what is in the actual games lore compared to what people are stating in a neutral tone.

Oh, I get what you might intend to say.
But you fail to see that your so called "logical" argument is terrible rude and implies a lot of ignorance. 

I understant your "logic" to cure a "disease" or to heal "crippled" people. 

You assume that natural procreation is the first and foremost duty of anyone in any race. Thats pure bull****, but maybe, lets stick with it. So, according to you, to keep that procreation up or rather as close to 100% as possible, you want to get rid of possible gay people via genetic manufacturing. 

But 1) Thing is, you imply with these statements that gay people are the result of a genetic defect, declareing them a failure. Its not offensive to say someones existence is a failure? Right.

2) If it would be indeed a genetical defect, evolution would have rid itself a long time ago from these "defects", since as you already stated gays cant reproduce naturally, and thus cant give there "defect" genes to their children.

So no, I am not reading what I want to read, but I read what you wrote. What ironically isnt what you intended to say, if you really thought about what you wrote. What you clearly did not, giving point 1) and point 2).

Let me make something perfectly clear: I am not labeling it as a failure, just a variation.
However, if it IS genetical, then it technically have to be a mutation compared to the standard genetic composition, cause otherwise it would be pretty hard for the 'standard' genetic composition to procreate and thus pass along genetic material.

As for wether or not it is a 'duty' to procreate, that is entirely up to the personal beliefs of a person. I know of plenty of straigths that wouldn't dream of having kids themselves, so that particular issue isn't tied to sexuality. However, if everyone stopped doing it (procreating), the species inherent in that event would cease to exist.

As someone else stated, in a way it could be seens as natures way of inhibiting the population explosion on earth. Just like nature makes sure that people procreate alot whenever there have been a war, natural disaster, horrible living conditions making for high mortality and so on.

Added this to the setting of the ME universe where gene therapy is common and humanity is trying to expand as fast as it can, I don't see it as unreasonably to consider wether this variation of genes would be classified as harmless in the same degree it is today. Especially when you consider it on a macro level. They appearantly genepurged fat people already, for example, and Ashley were treated with gene therapy to cure nearsightedness, something I suffer from myself yet doesn't feel handicapped by to an extent that I would think it requiring to be actively purged.

[ElitePinecone]

TommyServo wrote...
This has been my take ever since I started thinking about the topic.

These are characters written by writers (who have proven themselves in the past to be pretty capable). Personally, I don't think consistency matters for characters across all possible story arcs - just consistency for any given story arc. I can allow for a gay Ashley in one game and a straight one in another and a dead one in yet another, because any given savegame is occupied by a different cast of characters, with different personalities, different character arcs, and frequently, different fates.

This is true. As long as each arc is written differenly enough to make the romance relatively unique for each varying playthrough - for example, repeated lines for mShep and femShep for the same character wouldn't be all that great. 

I do think the writers could easily pull this off, given the resources they have available. 

[Servo to the bitter end]

XX55XX wrote...

This is a repost from my post in the Tali thread:

I personally do not disapprove of bisexuality or homosexuality in video games at all. Given the movement towards sexual emancipation over the past few decades in Western society, I think featuring bisexuality and homosexuality in a video game would rouse the least amount of controversy (given how this board loves everything BioWare), but the key issue here is that BioWare appears ready to ret-con the sexuality of many major characters - characters we are emotionally invested in - for the sake of satisfying this social zeitgeist that necessitates the portrayal of bisexuality and homosexuality in the media.

If Tali had been homosexual or bisexual to begin with, I see no issue. However, for BioWare to go out of their way to satisfy a minority of gamers on this board - breaking narrative continuity in process, is a very sad thing, and something which I wholeheartedly disapprove of.

The issue lies not in that some of us are uncomfortable with homosexuality or bisexuality (admittedly, a very small minority of us are), but in that ret-cons are the least satisfactory way of giving gamers of various sexual orientations "more options," so to speak.

They can easily make Joker homosexual. That new James Vega? He could be homosexual too. What about Kelly? Why not expand on her a bit? What about Mordin, Grunt, etc? They too could be homosexual. What Zaeed? BioWare has the option of giving gamers more options without ret-conning anyone.

In short, BioWare can satisfy everyone's desires very easily with new characters and not have to retcon anyone.

I'm not sure you'd find anyone who supports the inclusion of s/s romances who would disagree with you. In fact, in many ways, I think making an existing character like Joker (or Chakwas!) would be ideal.

[M-Sinistrari]

XX55XX wrote...

This is a repost from my post in the Tali thread:

I personally do not disapprove of bisexuality or homosexuality in video games at all. Given the movement towards sexual emancipation over the past few decades in Western society, I think featuring bisexuality and homosexuality in a video game would rouse the least amount of controversy (given how this board loves everything BioWare), but the key issue here is that BioWare appears ready to ret-con the sexuality of many major characters - characters we are emotionally invested in - for the sake of satisfying this social zeitgeist that necessitates the portrayal of bisexuality and homosexuality in the media.

If Tali had been homosexual or bisexual to begin with, I see no issue. However, for BioWare to go out of their way to satisfy a minority of gamers on this board - breaking narrative continuity in process, is a very sad thing, and something which I wholeheartedly disapprove of.

The issue lies not in that some of us are uncomfortable with homosexuality or bisexuality (admittedly, a very small minority of us are), but in that ret-cons are the least satisfactory way of giving gamers of various sexual orientations "more options," so to speak.

Considering that there are people who consider Tali's change from just squadmate to LI as a satisfying of the minority of players, is the possibility of her being bi so radically different?  Even going with the rationale that Tali had a crush from the beginning and wasn't able to act on it until ME2, is it so much of a stretch for it to take her until ME3 to be able to express those feelings to a Shep of same gender?

[wheelyjon]

and as for rewritting it over two years kaidan and ash have no poir romaces (a left over from when they were both bi in the early dev stage) the girl in kadain's story could just be a friend sounds just like the ones I used, I had a girl friend for 7 years i wasn't hideing but i realliy didnt think i was gay but then in the invtervining stage betweenm str8 and and gay i used to talk about women i thourght 'beautiful' and talked about 'the kind of women i really fancy' the shock of lossing shep could have brought it out same for shep dieing kind make you revaluate whats important in your life.
ash could be hiding it coz she's a marine and worred about the fallout and the imporance she lays on the respect of her sister and the one we heard in me1 teasing her about boys so ash goes on dates to provide matrial for the jokes to stay close to them, that kind of joke can keep you in the closet (i know that personaly so no telling me its not a real story arc ...unless... i'm not real lol arrh the matrix!) and the letter from kaidan just says a doctor so there you go rewritting with not geting in a fix .. and as Black Raptor from game to game the charters can be diffent orentaions if your a fem shep or str8 male one hes str8 if you chose other wise he gay if you dont want it to affect you it deosn't have to if bioware do it right
....
and as i said above you could have it as a yes or no at start of the game....or even free dlc that changes the diologe tree so people dont have to download it if they don't want to ethir way they get there 'right and so do we HAPPY WORLD lol i hope

[Erani]

ElitePinecone wrote...

TommyServo wrote...
This has been my take ever since I started thinking about the topic.

These are characters written by writers (who have proven themselves in the past to be pretty capable). Personally, I don't think consistency matters for characters across all possible story arcs - just consistency for any given story arc. I can allow for a gay Ashley in one game and a straight one in another and a dead one in yet another, because any given savegame is occupied by a different cast of characters, with different personalities, different character arcs, and frequently, different fates.

This is true. As long as each arc is written differenly enough to make the romance relatively unique for each varying playthrough - for example, repeated lines for mShep and femShep for the same character wouldn't be all that great. 

I do think the writers could easily pull this off, given the resources they have available. 

I share your opinion on this. I have great trust in the writers, and know they will make this work whether with known characters or new ones. 

[ElitePinecone]

@SalsaDMA: For the last time, your discussion of real-world attitudes to homosexuality is beyond the scope of this forum. Involving both religion and politics just compounds this. Find another place to have this conversation, all you're doing is inviting responses that can escalate.

[jeweledleah]

Black Raptor wrote...

Just because the same character is romanceable playing as either male or female shep doesn't mean that character is bi. You can't play as male and female at the same time, so the romanceable NPC is either gay or straight or undisclosed depending on how you play the game.

Tali in my femshep playthrough might not have the same sexual orientation in my male playthrough where I romanced her.
If she becomes a romance option for my femshep in ME3 doesn't mean she isn't straight in my male shep playthrough.

I'm sorry, that doens't work that way.  once the character is open to both sexes romanticaly?  they are bi.  when you are datign a bisexual person, just becasue they are with you, they didn't suddenly lose an ability to be atracted to other gender, they are just not atracted to a specific people right now, becasue they are atracted to you.

someone please find a quote from David Gaider when he talks about Anders in regards to that topic?

now people individualy can interpret anything in whatever way they wish, but it doesn't change the underlining reality.  they are just ignoring parts of it.  its a player induced toggle.

unlike Shepard, who is customizable character - npc's are not costumizable, so whatever they are or have a potential to evolve into, in one playthrough - they are that in all playthroughs, regardless of whether they express it or not.

[Tommy6860]

XX55XX wrote...

This is a repost from my post in the Tali thread:

I personally do not disapprove of bisexuality or homosexuality in video games at all. Given the movement towards sexual emancipation over the past few decades in Western society, I think featuring bisexuality and homosexuality in a video game would rouse the least amount of controversy (given how this board loves everything BioWare), but the key issue here is that BioWare appears ready to ret-con the sexuality of many major characters - characters we are emotionally invested in - for the sake of satisfying this social zeitgeist that necessitates the portrayal of bisexuality and homosexuality in the media.

This again! Well, I approve of any sexuality in any media, simply because it is a human trait afterall (in the context of the topic anyway). So why hide it and then demonize it because one isn't like the other in spite of our common "humaness".

If Tali had been homosexual or bisexual to begin with, I see no issue. However, for BioWare to go out of their way to satisfy a minority of gamers on this board - breaking narrative continuity in process, is a very sad thing, and something which I wholeheartedly disapprove of.

Where is it canon in the ME series that Tali was straight in orientation? Where is it ever mentioned by her or any other character in the ME series that she is straight? She wasn't even romanceable in ME1 anyway. Bottom line is, the game is an RPG, and you can choose to play her to the orientation you wish, so it really shouldn't be an issue.

The issue lies not in that some of us are uncomfortable with homosexuality or bisexuality (admittedly, a very small minority of us are), but in that ret-cons are the least satisfactory way of giving gamers of various sexual orientations "more options," so to speak.

Same as I mentioned above since her orientation has never been mentioned, so retconning cannot apply. Play ME2 and she all but says she would join suits with a femshep.

They can easily make Joker homosexual. That new James Vega? He could be homosexual too. What about Kelly? Why not expand on her a bit? What about Mordin, Grunt, etc? They too could be homosexual. What Zaeed? BioWare has the option of giving gamers more options without ret-conning anyone.

In short, BioWare can satisfy everyone's desires very easily with new characters and not have to retcon anyone.

Now you're just generalizing the whole as to demonize homosexuality again. You have a chocie to be or not to be when playing an RPG, it really is that simple..

[lovgreno]

I find it very hard to disagree with someone who uses She Hulk in his/her avatar.

[BeastMTL]

TommyServo wrote...


I'm not sure you'd find anyone who supports the inclusion of s/s romances who would disagree with you. In fact, in many ways, I think making an existing character like Joker (or Chakwas!) would be ideal.

:wub:Joker:wub: available for s/s romance would make me wet myself!

[Siansonea]

 

SalsaDMA wrote...


Thread moves too fast to keep up with what happens while one attends the real world.
Anyways, while wading through the posts I figured this line of comments needed a comment.


Asuming the 'it's in the genes' theory.


Since gene therapy is common in the ME universe, why does homosexuality even exist in the ME universe then? Considering that one of the primary concerns of humanity should be to expand and grow as a galactic species, having a 'genetic dead end' would seem counter to this objective.


If we seperate the genetic 'disorder' (word usage as intered by it being a genetic damper to hinder natural procreation of the species) from the affected people, just like we would seperate being blind from the affected people , why insist on what is arguably a curable genetic flaw in people? I'm fairly certain people wouldn't insist that blind people should be 'preserved' just to add variety and spice if it was possible to cure blindness.  Thus with the scientific revelations done in the ME universe, the whole issue seems a fad brought up by current day people wanting to get 'accepted' for what they are.


It's a misnomer to connect present days acceptance with the ME futures possibility of it never being an issue to start with. 


And guys, please do try not misunderstand me. I know you will regardless, as illustrated already by the hatefull postings done already by the vocal people that flame anyone for even daring to comment in the thread without being fully in agrteement with them, but read what I actually wrote instead of what you think I wrote. webkit-fake-url://9BA3FF93-980F-45F2-992B-D9D1572E6C01/blushing.png

Well, if the only point of life was just to make more copies of ourselves, then we're all just the mammal equivalent of photocopiers. I'm a 42-year-old woman, no husband, and no kids, and yes, I'm "straight". But I never wanted kids. What if they grew up to be intolerant nutjobs? So not worth the risk. But you know what? I know there are plenty of drunk sorority girls out there who will more than offset the fact that I chose not to reproduce.


And what you're talking about is eugenics. Debating the ethics of eugenics (one of the Notzi's pet projects, by the way) is not the purpose of the thread. I think it's safe to assume that the Human Systems Alliance in the years leading up to First Contact isn't a fascist regime, and that the medical community of that time period isn't going to alter the human genome to remove homosexuality, even if they could isolate it genetically. Homosexuality evolved naturally in humans and lots of other animal species, so clearly there is no evolutionary disadvantage, and very probably there are evolutionary advantages among social animals. Fewer breeding males means fewer fueds between breeding males over females after all. Breeding male dominance behavior can cause injury and death, which weakens a population and leaves the females vulnerable to predation if they are physically weaker than the males. Additional non-breeding males help protect the group, and additional non-breeding females help the group in similar ways, depending on the specifics of the species.  


The belief that it is "wrong" is cultural, and incidentally, stupid. It is predicated on the idea that the only valuable function a given individual of a species can have is reproductive. Well, tell that to bees. Not every individual in a species has to directly contribute to reproduction in order for that individual to have value to the species as a whole. And humanity seems to have no problem breeding like locusts regardless of having a percentage of non-breeding individuals. Thank the stars for drunk sorority girls, way to take one for the team.


You are being offensive, equating homosexuals to people with disabilities. Calling homosexuality a disease to be cured speaks of your cultural bias, and while you are perfectly free to think what you want, you are not free to spout such offensive rhetoric and then say "no offense" and act like we're unreasonable for calling you on it. You know you're being offensive, and we know you know you're being offensive. So let's drop the victim routine, shall we?


And, what does any of this have to do with wider romance options in ME3? Well, I can see Mordin having a discussion like this with Shepard, so maybe Mordin should be a same-sex LI. 

Modifié par Siansonea II, 20 mai 2011 - 03:18 .

[Servo to the bitter end]

jeweledleah wrote...

I'm sorry, that doens't work that way.  once the character is open to both sexes romanticaly?  they are bi.  when you are datign a bisexual person, just becasue they are with you, they didn't suddenly lose an ability to be atracted to other gender, they are just not atracted to a specific people right now, becasue they are atracted to you.

someone please find a quote from David Gaider when he talks about Anders in regards to that topic?

now people individualy can interpret anything in whatever way they wish, but it doesn't change the underlining reality.  they are just ignoring parts of it.  its a player induced toggle.

unlike Shepard, who is customizable character - npc's are not costumizable, so whatever they are or have a potential to evolve into, in one playthrough - they are that in all playthroughs, regardless of whether they express it or not.

Shepard can influence the opinions of many of the squad members. S/he can paragon up Ashley and Garrus or Renegade up Kaidan. Their characters are not immutable. This is seen to a small degree in the first two games, but it's there without a doubt. It's something they should expand upon.

Your'e saying that there's no canon Shepard - this is obviously true. But as a result, there's no canon...anyone else, really. Is canon Kaidan alive or dead? He starts out as a pretty altruistic dude, but depending on the way things shake out in ME1, he can remain that way at the end or he can turn pretty ruthless. What about Wrex? It differs on a given playthrough.

I reiterate what I said earlier on the page - character consistency isn't important across all possible story arcs - just on any given story arc. And the supporting cast are changeable just like Shepard.

Modifié par TommyServo, 20 mai 2011 - 03:24 .

[SalsaDMA]

ElitePinecone wrote...

@SalsaDMA: For the last time, your discussion of real-world attitudes to homosexuality is beyond the scope of this forum. Involving both religion and politics just compounds this. Find another place to have this conversation, all you're doing is inviting responses that can escalate.

I am not adressing 'real.world attitudes' but merely commenting that when people claim sexuality is tied to genetics, then the ME lore regarding gene therapy and genetic engineering needs to be considered as well. And so far, the lore have made humanity rather hamfisted in that regard, only outlawing gene therapy that gave 'new abilities' to a species (which was appearantly introduced because near sapient lifeforms on earth were tinkered with to make them more sapient).

[Raanz]

XX55XX wrote...

This is a repost from my post in the Tali thread:

I personally do not disapprove of bisexuality or homosexuality in video games at all. Given the movement towards sexual emancipation over the past few decades in Western society, I think featuring bisexuality and homosexuality in a video game would rouse the least amount of controversy (given how this board loves everything BioWare), but the key issue here is that BioWare appears ready to ret-con the sexuality of many major characters - characters we are emotionally invested in - for the sake of satisfying this social zeitgeist that necessitates the portrayal of bisexuality and homosexuality in the media.

The issue lies not in that some of us are uncomfortable with homosexuality or bisexuality (admittedly, a very small minority of us are), but in that ret-cons are the least satisfactory way of giving gamers of various sexual orientations "more options," so to speak.

They can easily make Joker homosexual. That new James Vega? He could be homosexual too. What about Kelly? Why not expand on her a bit? What about Mordin, Grunt, etc? They too could be homosexual. What Zaeed? BioWare has the option of giving gamers more options without ret-conning anyone.

In short, BioWare can satisfy everyone's desires very easily with new characters and not have to retcon anyone.

Very good post, well written and expresses my views almost exactly.

[M-Sinistrari]

TommyServo wrote...

Shepard can influence the opinions of many of the squad members. S/he can paragon up Ashley and Garrus or Renegade up Kaidan. Their characters are not immutable. This is seen to a small degree in the first two games, but it's there without a doubt. It's something they should expand upon.

If memory serves, they are going to have this impact come ME3.

[Ashira Shepard]

I'm just wondering why it's such a massive issue for a so called "established" character to "suddenly" become bisexual.

I wouldn't care. I'd be more focused on who I might romance, and if not that, then I would be way more focused on how Shepard's story is going to end while fighting the Reapers.

Importance Scale
[TehGayz]- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - O - - - - [Reapers]

I do care, but I doubt I'll find an LI I want my Shep to be with. *shrug*

In any case, I still think Garrus is in the "If it's you, it's okay" camp.*holds up riot shield*

[SalsaDMA]

Nyoka wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Let me make something perfectly clear: I am not labeling it as a failure, just a variation.
However, if it IS genetical, then it technically have to be a mutation compared to the standard genetic composition, cause otherwise it would be pretty hard for the 'standard' genetic composition to procreate and thus pass along genetic material.

As for wether or not it is a 'duty' to procreate, that is entirely up to the personal beliefs of a person. I know of plenty of straigths that wouldn't dream of having kids themselves, so that particular issue isn't tied to sexuality. However, if everyone stopped doing it (procreating), the species inherent in that event would cease to exist.

As someone else stated, in a way it could be seens as natures way of inhibiting the population explosion on earth. Just like nature makes sure that people procreate alot whenever there have been a war, natural disaster, horrible living conditions making for high mortality and so on.

Added this to the setting of the ME universe where gene therapy is common and humanity is trying to expand as fast as it can, I don't see it as unreasonably to consider wether this variation of genes would be classified as harmless in the same degree it is today. Especially when you consider it on a macro level. They appearantly genepurged fat people already, for example, and Ashley were treated with gene therapy to cure nearsightedness, something I suffer from myself yet doesn't feel handicapped by to an extent that I would think it requiring to be actively purged.

That's very interesting. Now, how do you think s/s relationships should be implemented in Mass Effect 3? Do you feel this opens up the Role Playing options available to players?

My stance on 'how' should be quite clear by my signature

And no, I don't think it opens up roleplaying options. After all, haven't people in this very thread already claimed they were roleplaying as gay shepards already?

[Erani]

rynluna wrote...

XX55XX wrote...
If Tali had been homosexual or bisexual to begin with, I see no issue. However, for BioWare to go out of their way to satisfy a minority of gamers on this board - breaking narrative continuity in process, is a very sad thing, and something which I wholeheartedly disapprove of.

She stays straight in your playthrough though for your MaleShep.  Why should someone be denied a s/s relationship with her in their own playthrough when it won't even effect you?  As far as Tali in FemShep's world goes, she has never stated she is all about the guys and it's been mentioned several times that she gets flustered at the thought of linking suits with FemShep.  My first playthrough of ME2, I was certain she was a s/s romance but after being cut off after the linking suits convo, I realized it wasn't happening.

Besides, if Tali is in love with MShep in one of my playthroughs, what does it matter that she could be in love with a FemShep in another? Either playthrough is not affected.

As for why she didn't show interest in ME2 but will do so in ME3, there's many plausible reasons. Maybe she didn't think FemShep was interested (s/s pairings not common as evidenced by Nef's reaction to attraction to Morinth) or she needed more time to work up the courage to confess to FemShep (again, s/s not the norm; could even be frowned upon in Flotilla culture).