6696 réponses à ce sujet

[Ciryx]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Let me make something perfectly clear: I am not labeling it as a failure, just a variation.
However, if it IS genetical, then it technically have to be a mutation compared to the standard genetic composition, cause otherwise it would be pretty hard for the 'standard' genetic composition to procreate and thus pass along genetic material.

As for wether or not it is a 'duty' to procreate, that is entirely up to the personal beliefs of a person. I know of plenty of straigths that wouldn't dream of having kids themselves, so that particular issue isn't tied to sexuality. However, if everyone stopped doing it (procreating), the species inherent in that event would cease to exist.

As someone else stated, in a way it could be seens as natures way of inhibiting the population explosion on earth. Just like nature makes sure that people procreate alot whenever there have been a war, natural disaster, horrible living conditions making for high mortality and so on.

Added this to the setting of the ME universe where gene therapy is common and humanity is trying to expand as fast as it can, I don't see it as unreasonably to consider wether this variation of genes would be classified as harmless in the same degree it is today. Especially when you consider it on a macro level. They appearantly genepurged fat people already, for example, and Ashley were treated with gene therapy to cure nearsightedness, something I suffer from myself yet doesn't feel handicapped by to an extent that I would think it requiring to be actively purged.

Its not genetic. And if you would research that just ONE bit, you would have been able to find it out in no time. You didnt, but you spread your stuff here further even when I told you in 2) by now why it cannot be a major genetic defect.

You say you dont declare them a failure in one sentence, but later on you also say it needs to be fixed. Hypocrite much? You dont fix anything that isnt a failure or a handicap. 
You would fix cancer if you could. You would fix genetic heartfailures if you could.
But you dont "fix" being gay if you could. Since being gay is NOT a failure, an illness or anything else. Its part of the process of being an indiviual. Its part of the freedom to choose who you are, and whom you like to spend your future with. Its part of these things, that make us human, that give consciousness. 
If you say you want to "fix" that, you want to brainwash, force others to be like you are, or whatever your ideals would be. So yeah, we had such a dude ~1940s that had similiar thoughts and I am sure you dont want to be put into the same box as him.

Bottomline: Inform yourself before posting things. Use correct terms and utilize them, otherwise you are going to offend a lot of people. 

[Siansonea]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Ciryx wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Again you are just reading what you want to read rather than what I actually write.

If anything, you're the one making hatespeeches instead of discussing what is in the actual games lore compared to what people are stating in a neutral tone.

Oh, I get what you might intend to say.
But you fail to see that your so called "logical" argument is terrible rude and implies a lot of ignorance. 

I understant your "logic" to cure a "disease" or to heal "crippled" people. 

You assume that natural procreation is the first and foremost duty of anyone in any race. Thats pure bull****, but maybe, lets stick with it. So, according to you, to keep that procreation up or rather as close to 100% as possible, you want to get rid of possible gay people via genetic manufacturing. 

But 1) Thing is, you imply with these statements that gay people are the result of a genetic defect, declareing them a failure. Its not offensive to say someones existence is a failure? Right.

2) If it would be indeed a genetical defect, evolution would have rid itself a long time ago from these "defects", since as you already stated gays cant reproduce naturally, and thus cant give there "defect" genes to their children.

So no, I am not reading what I want to read, but I read what you wrote. What ironically isnt what you intended to say, if you really thought about what you wrote. What you clearly did not, giving point 1) and point 2).

Let me make something perfectly clear: I am not labeling it as a failure, just a variation.
However, if it IS genetical, then it technically have to be a mutation compared to the standard genetic composition, cause otherwise it would be pretty hard for the 'standard' genetic composition to procreate and thus pass along genetic material.

As for wether or not it is a 'duty' to procreate, that is entirely up to the personal beliefs of a person. I know of plenty of straigths that wouldn't dream of having kids themselves, so that particular issue isn't tied to sexuality. However, if everyone stopped doing it (procreating), the species inherent in that event would cease to exist.

As someone else stated, in a way it could be seens as natures way of inhibiting the population explosion on earth. Just like nature makes sure that people procreate alot whenever there have been a war, natural disaster, horrible living conditions making for high mortality and so on.

Added this to the setting of the ME universe where gene therapy is common and humanity is trying to expand as fast as it can, I don't see it as unreasonably to consider wether this variation of genes would be classified as harmless in the same degree it is today. Especially when you consider it on a macro level. They appearantly genepurged fat people already, for example, and Ashley were treated with gene therapy to cure nearsightedness, something I suffer from myself yet doesn't feel handicapped by to an extent that I would think it requiring to be actively purged.

Pro tip: Genetic diversity HELPS a species. Removing genetic diversity is much more damaging than having a few individuals who don't directly contribute to procreation. 

People act like the procreative act is somehow special and sacred. That's just silly. It takes five minutes for the male to do his job, and nine months for the female to do hers. And that's when the REAL work begins. If just making the highest number of babies was the goal, that would be easy, just clone each new zygote and each female gives birth to twins. Presto! Double population growth. But those babies aren't going to feed themselves, or change their own diapers, etc. I guess the parents could do it all themselves, with no help from non-parents. Seems to have worked out well for those Gosselin folks with all the kids.

[M-Sinistrari]

SalsaDMA wrote...
After all, haven't people in this very thread already claimed they were roleplaying as gay shepards already?

While yeah, people could just RP out things in the head, to finally have something tangible in game, that's the extra zing.

Kinda like adding the Cholula to your morning eggs.  Yeah the eggs are fine plain but the Cholula makes them sing.

[wheelyjon]

[/quote]

Considering that there are people who consider Tali's change from just squadmate to LI as a satisfying of the minority of players, is the possibility of her being bi so radically different?  Even going with the rationale that Tali had a crush from the beginning and wasn't able to act on it until ME2, is it so much of a stretch for it to take her until ME3 to be able to express those feelings to a Shep of same gender?

[/quote]

i agree whole heartedly and to add to you idea she may not have thought  that shep was ‘in the market’ so to speak  as there has bebeen no real F/F romance as we keep being told asari i attractive to everyone and are asexual so there you go i defiantly think they’ve left enough scope for it. Plus tali so sweet and shy she temped me on one play through thats I played a different role in a roleplaying game and it didn’t change me at all  fun isn’t it lol  

ps just like to point out at least the person who raised the point it in the blog in first place did it with so thought and was polite about even if we don't agree, no reflection on the reply of yours i quoted which was the same it is just my plug for playing nice and closing out the 'trolls' new to the slag is that the right term?

[Erani]

AshiraShepard wrote...

I'm just wondering why it's such a massive issue for a so called "established" character to "suddenly" become bisexual.

I wouldn't care. I'd be more focused on who I might romance, and if not that, then I would be way more focused on how Shepard's story is going to end while fighting the Reapers.

Importance Scale
[TehGayz]- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - O - - - - [Reapers]

I do care, but I doubt I'll find an LI I want my Shep to be with. *shrug*

In any case, I still think Garrus is in the "If it's you, it's okay" camp.*holds up riot shield*

Garrus is good "gay-for-you-only" material. I approve. 

[XX55XX]

This again! Well, I approve of any sexuality in any media, simply because it is a human trait afterall (in the context of the topic anyway). So why hide it and then demonize it because one isn't like the other in spite of our common "humaness".

I, demonize homosexuality? Excuse me, but I do have a few homosexual friends and could care less who they bed with. I am only 20, and I have been grown up with the notion that we respect everyone, regardless of their race, age, or sexual orientation. I am not the byproduct of an older era. Now, you are just off your rocker there. Stop generalizing those of us who disapprove of ret-cons.

Where is it canon in the ME series that Tali was straight in orientation? Where is it ever mentioned by her or any other character in the ME series that she is straight? She wasn't even romanceable in ME1 anyway. Bottom line is, the game is an RPG, and you can choose to play her to the orientation you wish, so it really shouldn't be an issue.

You know, if BioWare set it up that way to begin with, I would have less of an issue with that. But, having Tali, for example, be available to only those who play as male Shepards point to some sort of attempt by BioWare to enforce a degree of uniformality for the characters.

Same as I mentioned above since her orientation has never been mentioned, so retconning cannot apply. Play ME2 and she all but says she would join suits with a femshep.

And, what does this suggest? That comment can be interpreted in a variety of ways, and your interpretation is probably no more convincing than my interpretation of that comment.

Now you're just generalizing the whole as to demonize homosexuality again. You have a chocie to be or not to be when playing an RPG, it really is that simple..

Again, with the ad hominem attacks. "You disapprove of having a character's sexuality ret-conned, so you must hate gay people!"

Modifié par XX55XX, 20 mai 2011 - 03:34 .

[Siansonea]

Raanz wrote...

XX55XX wrote...

This is a repost from my post in the Tali thread:

I personally do not disapprove of bisexuality or homosexuality in video games at all. Given the movement towards sexual emancipation over the past few decades in Western society, I think featuring bisexuality and homosexuality in a video game would rouse the least amount of controversy (given how this board loves everything BioWare), but the key issue here is that BioWare appears ready to ret-con the sexuality of many major characters - characters we are emotionally invested in - for the sake of satisfying this social zeitgeist that necessitates the portrayal of bisexuality and homosexuality in the media.

The issue lies not in that some of us are uncomfortable with homosexuality or bisexuality (admittedly, a very small minority of us are), but in that ret-cons are the least satisfactory way of giving gamers of various sexual orientations "more options," so to speak.

They can easily make Joker homosexual. That new James Vega? He could be homosexual too. What about Kelly? Why not expand on her a bit? What about Mordin, Grunt, etc? They too could be homosexual. What Zaeed? BioWare has the option of giving gamers more options without ret-conning anyone.

In short, BioWare can satisfy everyone's desires very easily with new characters and not have to retcon anyone.

Very good post, well written and expresses my views almost exactly.

A lot of people who fully support and embrace same-sex inclusion would be perfectly happy with new characters. Not everyone is saying "Make Garrus bi", but it seems like a lot of people seem to think that there's a huge movement to achieve that very thing. Sure, there are a few people that want that, but most people are of the "whatever they decide is fine, we're just happy it's an option" mindset.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 20 mai 2011 - 03:39 .

[jeweledleah]

TommyServo wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

I'm sorry, that doens't work that way.  once the character is open to both sexes romanticaly?  they are bi.  when you are datign a bisexual person, just becasue they are with you, they didn't suddenly lose an ability to be atracted to other gender, they are just not atracted to a specific people right now, becasue they are atracted to you.

someone please find a quote from David Gaider when he talks about Anders in regards to that topic?

now people individualy can interpret anything in whatever way they wish, but it doesn't change the underlining reality.  they are just ignoring parts of it.  its a player induced toggle.

unlike Shepard, who is customizable character - npc's are not costumizable, so whatever they are or have a potential to evolve into, in one playthrough - they are that in all playthroughs, regardless of whether they express it or not.

Shepard can influence the opinions of many of the squad members. S/he can paragon up Ashley and Garrus or Renegade up Kaidan. Their characters are not immutable. This is seen to a small degree in the first two games, but it's there without a doubt. It's something they should expand upon.

Your'e saying that there's no canon Shepard - this is obviously true. But as a result, there's no canon...anyone else, really. Is canon Kaidan alive or dead? What about Wrex? It differs on a given playthrough.

I'm saying that potential for npc evolution is the same regardless of whether you follow through with it, or not.  the only thing you chose is whether to take advatage of it.  you sheaprd could be paragon, renegade, any color or facial features come from varying origins and specialize in various abilities.  Garrus will alway be someone who worked for C-sec, he will have had the same exact relationship with his father, he will still have end up on Omega, he will have the same potencial skill set (for example - no one will ever have a biotic Garrus in unmodded game) and he will tell you exactly the same stories, with very few options for differing outcomes.  and regardless of whether you chose to romance him or not - that option will exists for all (currently femshep) playthroughs as long as you recruited him in first game. 

for example Anders again - you can influence him in a variety of ways, you can have 4 possible types of relationship with him, your Hawke could be male or female, but his backstory is still the same, his goals are still the same, he looks the same, sounds the same, he is always the same sex in every game etc etc etc.

there is no canon STORY.  story varies depending on which choices you make.  there is no canon Shepard, becasue each player determins how their Shepard acts.  but npcs and the world around them?  not quite the same.  we're not playing minecraft here, or Sims.  you don't get to determine who and what npc's are, you only get to decide how your Shepard interacts with them and as a consequence, how they percieve your Shepard.

[M-Sinistrari]

rynluna wrote...

People keep saying this but the only claims they can back up on their fave character being straight are..."he/she is in a straight relationship with MY Shepard."

And the kicker is that's fine for thier Shepard, the addition of s/s isn't going to change thier canon for that Shepard.

Hell, looking at my playthroughs I've got Tali either dead, unromanced or unrecruited, Thane either unrecruited or dead, Jacob alive or dead, Miranda dead, Garrus usually alive with I think one playthrough dead, and a playthrough with Jack usually alive with a couple dead.  That's just how it panned out for those Sheps of mine and doesn't effect anything on those who chose to romance those characters or keep them alive.

[Russalka]

It is not only genes, it is many biological factors.

It is not a choice.

Now, can we just give it up?

Modifié par Russalka, 20 mai 2011 - 03:32 .

[Tommy6860]

Siansonea II wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Ciryx wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Again you are just reading what you want to read rather than what I actually write.

If anything, you're the one making hatespeeches instead of discussing what is in the actual games lore compared to what people are stating in a neutral tone.

Oh, I get what you might intend to say.
But you fail to see that your so called "logical" argument is terrible rude and implies a lot of ignorance. 

I understant your "logic" to cure a "disease" or to heal "crippled" people. 

You assume that natural procreation is the first and foremost duty of anyone in any race. Thats pure bull****, but maybe, lets stick with it. So, according to you, to keep that procreation up or rather as close to 100% as possible, you want to get rid of possible gay people via genetic manufacturing. 

But 1) Thing is, you imply with these statements that gay people are the result of a genetic defect, declareing them a failure. Its not offensive to say someones existence is a failure? Right.

2) If it would be indeed a genetical defect, evolution would have rid itself a long time ago from these "defects", since as you already stated gays cant reproduce naturally, and thus cant give there "defect" genes to their children.

So no, I am not reading what I want to read, but I read what you wrote. What ironically isnt what you intended to say, if you really thought about what you wrote. What you clearly did not, giving point 1) and point 2).

Let me make something perfectly clear: I am not labeling it as a failure, just a variation.
However, if it IS genetical, then it technically have to be a mutation compared to the standard genetic composition, cause otherwise it would be pretty hard for the 'standard' genetic composition to procreate and thus pass along genetic material.

As for wether or not it is a 'duty' to procreate, that is entirely up to the personal beliefs of a person. I know of plenty of straigths that wouldn't dream of having kids themselves, so that particular issue isn't tied to sexuality. However, if everyone stopped doing it (procreating), the species inherent in that event would cease to exist.

As someone else stated, in a way it could be seens as natures way of inhibiting the population explosion on earth. Just like nature makes sure that people procreate alot whenever there have been a war, natural disaster, horrible living conditions making for high mortality and so on.

Added this to the setting of the ME universe where gene therapy is common and humanity is trying to expand as fast as it can, I don't see it as unreasonably to consider wether this variation of genes would be classified as harmless in the same degree it is today. Especially when you consider it on a macro level. They appearantly genepurged fat people already, for example, and Ashley were treated with gene therapy to cure nearsightedness, something I suffer from myself yet doesn't feel handicapped by to an extent that I would think it requiring to be actively purged.

Pro tip: Genetic diversity HELPS a species. Removing genetic diversity is much more damaging than having a few individuals who don't directly contribute to procreation. 

People act like the procreative act is somehow special and sacred. That's just silly. It takes five minutes for the male to do his job, and nine months for the female to do hers. And that's when the REAL work begins. If just making the highest number of babies was the goal, that would be easy, just clone each new zygote and each female gives birth to twins. Presto! Double population growth. But those babies aren't going to feed themselves, or change their own diapers, etc. I guess the parents could do it all themselves, with no help from non-parents. Seems to have worked out well for those Gosselin folks with all the kids.

This^ and not only that, same sex partners still have the anthropological social traits to be a parent as well, the trait doesn't diminish because of an inability to procreate.

[Ashira Shepard]

rynluna wrote...
People keep saying this but the only claims they can back up on their fave character being straight are..."he/she is in a straight relationship with MY Shepard."

Then I could just as easily say "Isabela is in a lesbian relationship with MY FemHawke" and say she's only for women.

Not true, because she can also go with men.

Like I've said before, my DA2 playthroughts are in a "world of gay" because I haven't followed a 'straight' romance at all.

It's  very god damn easy to do, just how it would be easy to follow only straight romances.

I've given people flustered by Ander's hitting on your MaleHawke a really easy answer. Be snarky in the conversation with him and he doesn't even try to hit on you.

So. Very. Easy. <_<

[M-Sinistrari]

wheelyjon wrote...

i agree whole heartedly and to add to you idea she may not have thought  that shep was ‘in the market’ so to speak  as there has bebeen no real F/F romance as we keep being told asari i attractive to everyone and are asexual so there you go i defiantly think they’ve left enough scope for it. Plus tali so sweet and shy she temped me on one play through thats I played a different role in a roleplaying game and it didn’t change me at all  fun isn’t it lol  

ps just like to point out at least the person who raised the point it in the blog in first place did it with so thought and was polite about even if we don't agree, no reflection on the reply of yours i quoted which was the same it is just my plug for playing nice and closing out the 'trolls' new to the slag is that the right term?

So at this point all we're doing is pure speculation as to what can happen.  They very well might not do any changes to the existing LIs short of what they've definitively said about opening them all up for romancing again if it didn't happen in the previous two games.

That leaves us with at least 2 options to see if they do happen to impliment s/s options.  New romance dialog to be seen for the maleSheps who're romancing her later than most, and newly written dialog for femSheps that can very well be different than what's been seen for the maleSheps.

Kinda a win/win situation for more options to talk to one's favourite character I'd think.

[SalsaDMA]

Ciryx wrote...

Its not genetic. And if you would research that just ONE bit, you would have been able to find it out in no time. You didnt, but you spread your stuff here further even when I told you in 2) by now why it cannot be a major genetic defect.

If it is not genetic, then why are there people in this very thread claiming it is genetical that they are gay?

I'm sorry, but if jumping back and forth between viewpoints like this just to suit whatever the wind blows like is the norm in a discussion, then the whole exercise becomes pointless.

[Tommy6860]

Russalka wrote...

It is not only genes, it is many biological factors.

It is not a choice.

Now, can we just give it up?

Agreed, being human is not a choice, and I despise bigotry in all of its ugliness. I guage people by their principles, not their traits. I also find it unethical for those who expect others to live up to their moral standards, as if that kind of thinking is morality anyway.

[Tommy6860]

AshiraShepard wrote...

rynluna wrote...
People keep saying this but the only claims they can back up on their fave character being straight are..."he/she is in a straight relationship with MY Shepard."

Then I could just as easily say "Isabela is in a lesbian relationship with MY FemHawke" and say she's only for women.

Not true, because she can also go with men.

Like I've said before, my DA2 playthroughts are in a "world of gay" because I haven't followed a 'straight' romance at all.

It's  very god damn easy to do, just how it would be easy to follow only straight romances.

I've given people flustered by Ander's hitting on your MaleHawke a really easy answer. Be snarky in the conversation with him and he doesn't even try to hit on you.

So. Very. Easy. <_<

Yep, never was an issue for me as I jsut avoided the <3 icon anyway.

[Ashira Shepard]

Tommy6860 wrote...
This^ and not only that, same sex partners still have the anthropological social traits to be a parent as well, the trait doesn't diminish because of an inability to procreate.

As a side note, you guys should be thankful for our inability to procreate. If we want children, we can just as easily take care of all the abandoned kids of actual 'breeders'. 

Now where would those little buggers be without us?

[Erani]

rynluna wrote...

Erani wrote...
As for why she didn't show interest in ME2 but will do so in ME3, there's many plausible reasons. Maybe she didn't think FemShep was interested (s/s pairings not common as evidenced by Nef's reaction to attraction to Morinth) or she needed more time to work up the courage to confess to FemShep (again, s/s not the norm; could even be frowned upon in Flotilla culture). 

The reason Tali didn't go for FemShep sooner could be many reasons as you said and doesn't even have to do with s/s.  It doesn't have to be a big explanation.  The only people who seem to think it won't be convincing enough are the ones who are against it.  I don't get why, since their playthroughs are going to be uneffected.  She fell for DudeShep in ME2 and their romance will continue.  In someone elses playthrough, a new relationship will start.  I don't understand the fear of FemShep now getting some love from Tali?

Exactly. As you say, the reason doesn't even have to be a big deal. At no point in ME1 or ME2 did she explicitly say that she was "straight" or "into guys only" or "not into girls" or anything that points of a specific sexual orientation. All we know is she could fall in love with MShep, and that she would be glad to share suits with FemShep and gets flustered by this. That's it.

I understand other characters such as Garrus, Wrex (LOL) or Ashley would need extremely smart writing to make an attraction to same-sex Shepard plausible. This is not to say it can't be done, but it'd be a bit more problematic IMO.

In any case, I do not consider a bi Tali in ME3 to be a retcon.

[ElitePinecone]

Why is the genetic status of homosexuality relevant *at all* to the already-announced S/S romances in ME3?

Your point is moot. Shepard can, and will in many cases, be gay in the universe of Mass Effect. Clearly, whatever eugenic leaps of logic are created to suggest a society should or would discard homosexuality through gene therepy do not apply in the fictional and hypothetical world of the Milky Way, 2186.

That being said, can we please move on.

[Ashira Shepard]

SalsaDMA wrote...
If it is not genetic, then why are there people in this very thread claiming it is genetical that they are gay?

I'm sorry, but if jumping back and forth between viewpoints like this just to suit whatever the wind blows like is the norm in a discussion, then the whole exercise becomes pointless.

I'm more of the mind that simple experience shapes how you view things and how you behave in later life.

Claiming it's genetic in the first place just seems kind of...I don't know, restrictive.

Though this would be a fabulous way of stating "it's not a choice" and I'm not saying it's a choice to be gay or bi anyway.

To me, this just happens.

Why bother trying to analyze the unliving hell out of it?

[Tantum Dic Verbo]

Siansonea II wrote...
Pro tip: Genetic diversity HELPS a species. Removing genetic diversity is much more damaging than having a few individuals who don't directly contribute to procreation. 

Well, kind of.  Evolution kills off weaker gene combinations in favor of those better adapted to survive.  Nature may like diversity, but she'll unabashedly kill off whoever's not keeping up.  In fact, she's been known to dabble in genocide.

[Servo to the bitter end]

jeweledleah wrote...

I'm saying that potential for npc evolution is the same regardless of whether you follow through with it, or not.  the only thing you chose is whether to take advatage of it.  you sheaprd could be paragon, renegade, any color or facial features come from varying origins and specialize in various abilities.  Garrus will alway be someone who worked for C-sec, he will have had the same exact relationship with his father, he will still have end up on Omega, he will have the same potencial skill set (for example - no one will ever have a biotic Garrus in unmodded game) and he will tell you exactly the same stories, with very few options for differing outcomes.  and regardless of whether you chose to romance him or not - that option will exists for all (currently femshep) playthroughs as long as you recruited him in first game. 

for example Anders again - you can influence him in a variety of ways, you can have 4 possible types of relationship with him, your Hawke could be male or female, but his backstory is still the same, his goals are still the same, he looks the same, sounds the same, he is always the same sex in every game etc etc etc.

there is no canon STORY.  story varies depending on which choices you make.  there is no canon Shepard, becasue each player determins how their Shepard acts.  but npcs and the world around them?  not quite the same.  we're not playing minecraft here, or Sims.  you don't get to determine who and what npc's are, you only get to decide how your Shepard interacts with them and as a consequence, how they percieve your Shepard.

Agree to disagree, I guess.

I feel that you do get to influence who they become. I admit that it's not to a huge degree, but it is inarguably present. It would be great if that was fleshed out even more.

Besides, in the case of Garrus, Shepard clearly determines whether he percieves her as a romantic companion. What's the problem if this applies to one or two other characters as well? As long as they are consistent in terms of a given playthrough, everything is cool.

[Cartims]

One would hope that in the future (mass effect setting) we would have evolved enough and overcome our foolish prejudices and hatred...this should be a none issue.....the reapers are "coming."....I want to also...with the person of my CHOOSING...