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[Siansonea]

massive_effect wrote...

I've noticed that many sequels suffer from man's pride. That means they've had success on the original, and therefore think they can "do what they want" with the sequel, and still succeed.

Jade Empire was such an example. It was a personal project for Bioware. It was a failure on many levels.

They learned from that failure, and made Mass Effect. They took the best of what they learned from KOTOR, and appealed to gamer. They humbled themselves and gave us what we wanted. This was true for ME1 and ME2.

I'm not sure what happened here, in ME3.

Is the ss option an act of humilty or pride at Bioware?

Oh, well that's too bad. Don't worry, we'll let you know how the ME3 story turns out, in case you're interested in the story. Hasta la vista!

[Servo to the bitter end]

massive_effect wrote...

I've noticed that many sequels suffer from man's pride. That means they've had success on the original, and therefore think they can "do what they want" with the sequel, and still succeed.

Jade Empire was such an example. It was a personal project for Bioware. It was a failure on many levels.

They learned from that failure, and made Mass Effect. They took the best of what they learned from KOTOR, and appealed to gamer. They humbled themselves and gave us what we wanted. This was true for ME1 and ME2.

I'm not sure what happened here, in ME3.

Is the ss option an act of humilty or pride at Bioware?

Really?

I think it's a pretty clear indication of taking audience feedback into consideration and giving us what we want.

[Erani]

Ryzaki wrote...

ipgd wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

I don't think he's a redshirt. He was confirmed to be a full squaddie in the same tweet as Garrus, Tali, VS, and Liara.

He could be Mhairi.

I don't think they ever said Mhari was a companion. She had a character trailer though. If BW rickrolls me like that again I will not be pleased. 

I wouldn't be pleased either! 
Nahh. I'm sure he won't die 20 min into the game. 

[Siansonea]

This all reminds me of when it was announced that Tom Cruise would be playing Lestat in the film version of "Interview With The Vampire". The rage over the decision was epic. Turns out, he was great in the role. Brad Pitt as Louis, on the other hand...

It's just funny that people are declaring that ME3 is going to absolutely suck because of a TWEET.

[AngelicMachinery]

utenanon wrote...

This is a repost from my post in the Tali thread:

I'm just going to stop you right here,  there is NOTHING you can say to prove Tali isn't interested in Femmeshep.  Truthfully, it seemed like the romance was just about to start.  We have a shy confession (An admission of a desire for intimacy) flirty lines said by both sides, and than... nothing if your a woman the conversation just died leaving me to be somewhat confused.

Modifié par AngelicMachinery, 20 mai 2011 - 04:47 .

[M-Sinistrari]

Wygrath wrote...

That's a really optimistic outlook and I hope you are right, but the cynic in me can't help but feel "a nameless dread"  over all this. I've played through the ME games more than any other RPGs in the history of video games. That honor previously belonged to FF7.

To say that I would be put off by the altering of some of my favorite charcaters in gaming would be an understatement.

It's all a matter of perspective.  Generally I save my cynicism for where it's warranted without question, things like the workplace, politics...etc...  On something like games, well, if they drop the ball I consider it lesson learned and just won't buy from that company in the future until I've proof of changes.  Not the first time it's happened, and won't be the last.

Alterations on characters, it all depends on what the change is.  If out of the blue Tali becomes Imperial God-Queen of the Quarians and Geth  with little or no really good explaning, then yeah it'd definitely be offputting.  But something pretty minor on the scale such as fleshing out the character as a person, when done well is amazing.  When done poorly it's an eyeroll.

[Siansonea]

TommyServo wrote...

massive_effect wrote...

I've noticed that many sequels suffer from man's pride. That means they've had success on the original, and therefore think they can "do what they want" with the sequel, and still succeed.

Jade Empire was such an example. It was a personal project for Bioware. It was a failure on many levels.

They learned from that failure, and made Mass Effect. They took the best of what they learned from KOTOR, and appealed to gamer. They humbled themselves and gave us what we wanted. This was true for ME1 and ME2.

I'm not sure what happened here, in ME3.

Is the ss option an act of humilty or pride at Bioware?

Really?

I think it's a pretty clear indication of taking audience feedback into consideration and giving us what we want.

Pssst! That's only okay if it's something they want, which usually involves manly man manly stuff without teh Gay Homosexualz. 

[Maugrim]

Siansonea II wrote...

This all reminds me of when it was announced that Tom Cruise would be playing Lestat in the film version of "Interview With The Vampire". The rage over the decision was epic. Turns out, he was great in the role. Brad Pitt as Louis, on the other hand...

It's just funny that people are declaring that ME3 is going to absolutely suck because of a TWEET.

Funny but sad as they try to shoehorn the idea into their preconcieved worldviews.  I'm estatic about finally have a s/s option but the romances themselves could still end up sucking big fat donkey balls.  Hell considering Bioware's handling of the whole s/s issue to date it's probably the more likely outcome.  Bottom line is anyone who loves or hates ME3 soley on the inclusion and outcome of it's s/s romances is a chump.  ME3 will be whatever it's going to be regardless of the s/s romances.

[AngelicMachinery]

rynluna wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

I'm just going to stop you right here,  there is NOTHING you can say to prove Tali isn't interested in Femmeshep.  Truthfully, it seemed like the romance was just about to start.  We have a shy confession (An admission of a desire for intimacy) flirty lines said by both sides, and than... nothing if your a woman the conversation just died leaving me to be somewhat confused.

Tali is a tease.

What a [explitive],  atleast legion will never tease me.

[M-Sinistrari]

Siansonea II wrote...

This all reminds me of when it was announced that Tom Cruise would be playing Lestat in the film version of "Interview With The Vampire". The rage over the decision was epic. Turns out, he was great in the role. Brad Pitt as Louis, on the other hand...

Man, that's a blast from the past....  Yeah, the ****** on that was epic, and that was prior widespread internet.  I remember even Anne Rice had gone through the roof about it, though with her level of crazy, not so much a surprise.

But yeah, everyone pretty much came around after seeing the finished product, even Anne.

[Sunnie]

massive_effect wrote...

I've noticed that many sequels suffer from man's pride. That means they've had success on the original, and therefore think they can "do what they want" with the sequel, and still succeed.

Jade Empire was such an example. It was a personal project for Bioware. It was a failure on many levels.

They learned from that failure, and made Mass Effect. They took the best of what they learned from KOTOR, and appealed to gamer. They humbled themselves and gave us what we wanted. This was true for ME1 and ME2.

I'm not sure what happened here, in ME3.

Is the ss option an act of humilty or pride at Bioware?

It's obvious the undertone here is "pride", and I disagree. BioWare has realized that the LGBT community playing their products and is much lager than they thought, and it is much, much larger than some of the posters in this thread think. They keep calling us a "minority", well, this minority isn't so small that the world doesn't notice. 

I am both happy and disappointed with BioWare on this front for different reasons.
I am happy that they are pushing out of the stereotypical vision of sexuality and giving everyone a choice, finally.  But at the same time I continue to be disappointed by them moving backwards in regards to the depiction of romantic content. The scene in ME was perfect, it was sweet, tender, passionate, it wasn't porn or even the least bit smutty. We go from that to the clothes on scenes we got in ME2 and the even worse scenes in DA2.

But I digress. Quite frankly, as long as they continue to develop Liara's romance with my femShep, I don't care about any other options either bi or straight, because as far as I am concerned, Liara is from a humanoid species of space lesbians and that suits me just fine!

[PlumPaul93]

utenanon wrote...I don't remember any part in either of the games where any of the romanceable characters (or any, for that matter) outrightly say "I am a heterosexual and I have no interest in the same gender".

I might be forgetting it though, so in complete honesty, please, link me to a video or give me a quote where each romanceable character says something that conveys that exact sentiment. Or any of them. Or any character in the ME games.

/Facepalm. So people have to outright say that they are a certain sexuality before people can accept who they are? One thing I do wonder is if the S/S people got the option to hit on a certain character but were turned down, would they be happy they at the very least got an option to ask, or would they be mad a character they were interested in turned them down.

Modifié par PlumPaul82393, 20 mai 2011 - 04:56 .

[Erani]

rynluna wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

I'm just going to stop you right here,  there is NOTHING you can say to prove Tali isn't interested in Femmeshep.  Truthfully, it seemed like the romance was just about to start.  We have a shy confession (An admission of a desire for intimacy) flirty lines said by both sides, and than... nothing if your a woman the conversation just died leaving me to be somewhat confused.

Tali is a tease.

LOL. She is.
The dialogue cut-off after the "sharing of suits" seemed suspect to me.

[Wygrath]

utenanon wrote...

XX55XX wrote...

This is a repost from my post in the Tali thread:

I personally do not disapprove of bisexuality or homosexuality in video games at all. Given the movement towards sexual emancipation over the past few decades in Western society, I think featuring bisexuality and homosexuality in a video game would rouse the least amount of controversy (given how this board loves everything BioWare), but the key issue here is that BioWare appears ready to ret-con the sexuality of many major characters - characters we are emotionally invested in - for the sake of satisfying this social zeitgeist that necessitates the portrayal of bisexuality and homosexuality in the media.

If Tali had been homosexual or bisexual to begin with, I see no issue. However, for BioWare to go out of their way to satisfy a minority of gamers on this board - breaking narrative continuity in process, is a very sad thing, and something which I wholeheartedly disapprove of.

The issue lies not in that some of us are uncomfortable with homosexuality or bisexuality (admittedly, a very small minority of us are), but in that ret-cons are the least satisfactory way of giving gamers of various sexual orientations "more options," so to speak.

They can easily make Joker homosexual. That new James Vega? He could be homosexual too. What about Kelly? Why not expand on her a bit? What about Mordin, Grunt, etc? They too could be homosexual. What Zaeed? BioWare has the option of giving gamers more options without ret-conning anyone.

In short, BioWare can satisfy everyone's desires very easily with new characters and not have to retcon anyone.

I don't remember any part in either of the games where any of the romanceable characters (or any, for that matter) outrightly say "I am a heterosexual and I have no interest in the same gender".

I might be forgetting it though, so in complete honesty, please, link me to a video or give me a quote where each romanceable character says something that conveys that exact sentiment. Or any of them. Or any character in the ME games.

C'mon, now. When you talk to someone you can pretty much tell in the first 10 minutes of the conversation, if not sooner, which team they're playing for without them saying so.

Subtle mannerisms and body language speak louder than words and are a helluva lot easier to read true.

Granted, the body language thing is irrelevant insofar as Mass Effect is concerned because the character animations just aren't that in-depth. However, each and every crew member has a distinct personality with subtle mannerisms and idiosyncracies. These personalty traits are well defined and some personalities just don't leave room for a same sex romance.

For instance, it would be out of character for Grunt to have a same sex romance option. It wouldn't fit. It would be like trying to put a square peg into a round hole... literally. hahahahaha

[jlb524]

One thing to keep in mind is that the devs see romances as optional things that are added simply to please fans, and don't care much about 'realism'.

If they did, why don't they include gay only companions? It's b/c of meta reasons...they don't want to limit options for heterosexual Shepards as more people do those types of romances. No one seems to complain about this 'pandering'....

[ADLegend21]

rynluna wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

I'm just going to stop you right here,  there is NOTHING you can say to prove Tali isn't interested in Femmeshep.  Truthfully, it seemed like the romance was just about to start.  We have a shy confession (An admission of a desire for intimacy) flirty lines said by both sides, and than... nothing if your a woman the conversation just died leaving me to be somewhat confused.

Tali is a tease.

indeed she is.

[Black Raptor]

CaptainIsabela wrote...

Agreed

The Isabela romance is superbly written I think. It does have its flaws which tie in with the minor flaw of the game being set over 10 years, played within about 30 hours - difficult to cram everything into coherently. So even though there are only a few key conversations with her, these conversations ARE key in portraying her character type and relationship with Hawke. It is like a bullet point appraisal of feelings and thoughts, bounced between Isabela (primarily) and Hawke. I like this

The ME romances in comparison are still good and typical BW, but they lack the quality of depth (in my eyes). They are almost like 'work your way towards a 5hag' storylines. The exception is possibly the Liara story. Just my thoughts and I know some will disagree, but I do think DA is superior.

I think the romances worked well in DA2 because the story was set over a long period of time. You sort of got the feeling that these people had their own lives and goals so the characters could be fleshed out more in the romance. 
In Mass Effect, everybody is on your ship for the entire time. Their goal is your goal and there isn't time to fully develop the relationship in a single game. 
That's why the Liara one works too. Unlike Kaiden or Ashley, she was in the second game and you could further the relationship. 
I think that ME3 will do the same for the VS romance too. 

[AngelicMachinery]

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

utenanon wrote...I don't remember any part in either of the games where any of the romanceable characters (or any, for that matter) outrightly say "I am a heterosexual and I have no interest in the same gender".

I might be forgetting it though, so in complete honesty, please, link me to a video or give me a quote where each romanceable character says something that conveys that exact sentiment. Or any of them. Or any character in the ME games.

/Facepalm. So people have to outright say that they are a certain sexuality before people can accept who they are? One thing I do wonder is if the S/S people got the option to hit on a certain character but were turned down, would they be happy they at the very least got an option to ask, or would they be mad a character they were interested in turned them down.

If a character came out and said "Sorry bro,  no ladies/dudes."  I will quite happily accept that,  this is why while I would like a Jack S/S I doubt we will see one as at least from my memory she rather explicitly states she isn't attracted to women.  I feel the same way about Miranda her EXTREME BABY CRAZY will probably keep her playing for the straight team.

Modifié par AngelicMachinery, 20 mai 2011 - 05:01 .

[PlumPaul93]

also the DA2 romances were good? Talking to them maybe 4-6 times over a 7-10 year period doesn't sound "superbly written".

[Wygrath]

jlb524 wrote...

One thing to keep in mind is that the devs see romances as optional things that are added simply to please fans, and don't care much about 'realism'.

If they did, why don't they include gay only companions? It's b/c of meta reasons...they don't want to limit options for heterosexual Shepards as more people do those types of romances. No one seems to complain about this 'pandering'....

I think this is lame though. I'm a heterosexual male and I'd use a gay male companion in my party if his personality was cool, he had good dialogue, and his voice actor was solid.

The fact that they are afraid to just create a character and have that charcater be who they are, unabashedly, unapologeticly just stinks. Do they think the fans can't accept that kind fo thing? No one else finds that kind of insulting?

[M-Sinistrari]

Black Raptor wrote...

I think the romances worked well in DA2 because the story was set over a long period of time. You sort of got the feeling that these people had their own lives and goals so the characters could be fleshed out more in the romance. 
In Mass Effect, everybody is on your ship for the entire time. Their goal is your goal and there isn't time to fully develop the relationship in a single game. 
That's why the Liara one works too. Unlike Kaiden or Ashley, she was in the second game and you could further the relationship. 
I think that ME3 will do the same for the VS romance too. 

In the case of Liara, the LotSB DLC really helped on that front.  Hearing how good it was from others was what made me do a Shep romancing her so I could enjoy it as well ( and it was as damn good as I was told), and I'm not that much of a Liara fan to begin with.

[Servo to the bitter end]

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

also the DA2 romances were good? Talking to them maybe 4-6 times over a 7-10 year period doesn't sound "superbly written".

I will admit that the time skips in DA2 were annoying. I still think the romances, overall, were much, much better than the ME romances, not just for their inclusiveness. The way they tie into the overarching narrative is pretty awesome.