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[Golden Owl]

Tommy6860 wrote...

SilentNukee wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

Super, and I am happy that you won't be getting the game for your reasons, seriously, because in all honesty, you don't deserve the honor being able to experience it anyway, IMO. Maybe Pat Robertson could get a version made just for you, where Dr Chakwas is a mental reprogrammer for the gay characters and sets them straight.

He's just always hating, apparently we're meant to just ignore him.

Maybe I am just getting too old to ignore this as my experiences with the "hate and vile" community has taken its toll.
Aside from one traumatic event my close friend experienced back in the late 80s as a near fatal hate attack. My wife and I have fostered kids from time to time and have been attempting to take on 15yr old girl permanently, who was abused by her mother, literally beaten to where she cannot walk correctly, because the girl is gay. Mother is out of the picture obviously, but the father wants the girl and the state social system has to abide by the laws. The girl wants to stay with us and all of the psychiatric care she has had has helped her greatly, and I fear going back may just set all of that progress back. It's been stressful to say the least, especailly for her, as my wife and I would give up
everything to take her in, she's so happy here and is totally trusting of us and our love for her. I cannot picture it going to pieces. She'snever experienced the kind of acceptance we show her, outside of getting into foster care and being with my wife and I.

Sorry for gush of emotion here, but sometimes this ****g crap just gets to me and I get very defensive.

I hear you Tommy...isn't she of an age at which she has some legal sway over where she goes? Here in Australia, I can't remember if it's 12, 15 or 16 at which a child gets a strong say in the legal system....I hope and pray she stays with you. I have a gay friend who has very limited contact with her father, she is an adult now...but when your father tells you what you need is a good raping to sort you out and set you straight, there's something very, very seriously wrong.

[Abispa]

SilentNukee wrote...



Adorable pic I posted earlier in the Liara thread. I love Liara's facepalm...And Wrex is being so cute.
(Still sorta related to s/s...Being FemShep and Liara. )

Hmm, I'm afraid that my Shepards would use the opportunity to teach his/her daughter how to shoot the little buggers. But then, knowing Wrex, I'm sure he will, too.

[Eromenos]

paptschik wrote...

Honestly...and not trying to offend you...I think you're totally overreacting and throwing around terms like misogynistic or homophobe WAY too fast.
Also, I don't see the problem with people like Zevran or Leliana. AT ALL. 
So..yeah, sorry, I don't get most of what you are saying.

It's ok, I'll try to clarify. With many air-quotes.

I asked why we don't get to see men "lowering themselves" into stripper-toy/secretarial positions in ME. That has to do with both misogyny and homophobia intertwined. It's "too degrading" for men to assume those roles because supposedly that's "women's work" and the thought of doing anything that makes a guy seem like a girl is just too repellant to many douches, because what could be worse than having to confront the idea that men might inhabit subordinate positions? Oh, those can't be "real men." Those are just "failed men," otherwise known as gays and who needs them in ME? What possible use do they provide on the surface for str8 guys?

How are women and queers dehumanized so easily if it were not for cultural hatred and contempt against them? That's the combined attitude ME2 played up to.

Sigh. I don't hate Leliana or Zevran themselves. I hate how they were needlessly forced to be token minorities. They weren't exploited to the extent that asari and Kelly in ME have been, but all of these queer characters were tailored to conform with homophobic allowances first, queer enjoyment second. That's the point I think you're unconsciously resisting. Assuming you're a queer female, Kelly and asari were not designed for you first. They were designed for misogynistic men first. You and everyone else ranked "below" were only secondary in BioWare's concern. There's nothing wrong with you liking them. There's everything wrong with BioWare allowing for only narrow depictions that play into exploitation.

Modifié par Eromenos, 22 mai 2011 - 03:10 .

[M-Sinistrari]

Abispa wrote...

Hmm, I'm afraid that my Shepards would use the opportunity to teach his/her daughter how to shoot the little buggers. But then, knowing Wrex, I'm sure he will, too.

For my Sheps it'd be introducing the kids to the wonderfully fun game of Punch the Pyjak.

[Abispa]

M-Sinistrari wrote...

Abispa wrote...

Hmm, I'm afraid that my Shepards would use the opportunity to teach his/her daughter how to shoot the little buggers. But then, knowing Wrex, I'm sure he will, too.

For my Sheps it'd be introducing the kids to the wonderfully fun game of Punch the Pyjak.

Oh, the fun Liara will have teaching baby Shep how to run over Pyjaks with a Mako! Too bad Shepard will be dead of old age by then.

[paptschik]

Eromenos wrote...

I asked why we don't get to see men "lowering themselves" into stripper-toy/secretarial positions in ME. That has to do with both misogyny and homophobia intertwined. It's "too degrading" for men to assume those roles because supposedly that's "women's work" and the thought of doing anything that makes a guy seem like a girl is just too repellant to many douches, because what could be worse than having to confront the idea that men might inhabit subordinate positions? Oh, those can't be "real men." Those are just "failed men," otherwise known as gays and who needs them in ME? What possible use do they provide on the surface for str8 guys?

How are women and queers dehumanized so easily if it were not for cultural hatred and contempt against them? That's the combined attitude ME2 played up to.

Sigh. I don't hate Leliana or Zevran themselves. I hate how they were needlessly forced to be token minorities. They weren't exploited to the extent that asari and Kelly in ME have been, but all of these queer characters were tailored to conform with homophobic allowances first, queer enjoyment second. That's the point I think you're unconsciously resisting. Assuming you're a queer female, Kelly and asari were not designed for you first. They were designed for misogynistic men first. You and everyone else ranked "below" were only secondary in BioWare's concern. There's nothing wrong with you liking them. There's everything wrong with BioWare allowing for only narrow depictions that play into exploitation.

I think you see insults where there are non.
First of all....have you ever considered that men are more open about being pervs and enjoying a nice stripper? So, you know, you could argue that only female/asari strippers means that the game portrays MEN in a negative light, because thy are such lowly creatures that they'd enjoy these things, whereas their superiors, the women, would not.

Logically though? More men play Mass Effect and more men like women. Plain and simpel and frankly, not such a sin either.
It's also a resources thing. I mean..how many strippers are there REALLY? One and a half dancing in every club in the galaxy looking exactly the same, doing the exact same moves?

And WHY are men misogynistic if they like Kelly and Asari? That, to me, makes zero sense.
They are made to appeal to men, yes, they are. SO? Just because something appeals to men, does not make it horrible. I think Kelly is a fun character, obviously a well educated one or she wouldn't essentially be the shrink of the Normandy (yeah, this is rarely brought up, but hey, Joker also barely does anything beyond sitting on his ass, complaining and watching porn).
What I think you need to understand is...heterosexual male is NOT the same as a misogynistic guy. 

[NICKjnp]

Most people on the forums know that I like to joke around. I like to lighten the mood. However seeing some of the things stated in here are very very sad....and that is from both sides.

1) Bioware having a bisexual character will not corrupt players. It is not going to make you gay. Being gay/straight/bisexual is not a decision or choice. You are born either gay/straight/bisexual....it occurs during the development in the womb. Though they don't know how it happens to women in the womb it is known that the release adrogens, a secondary male hormone that is in men and women, are what determines if a man is gay or not. If they are released then a portion of the developing brain that controls a man's sex drive is increased in size. If the mother is stressed in some way and they are not released then that portion does not enlarge but in fact stays the same size as a woman's and the man is gay. It has nothing to do with exposure. I grew up with a gay parent. My father came out of the closet when I was a year and a half...and guess what..I'm straight. So being gay is not a choice or decision. It is who a person is.

2) There has already been s/s in ME 1 and 2 (Liara/Femshep in 1 & 2 and Kelly in 2). Those who say they are not going to buy ME3 if there is s/s romances are forgetting that fact. You seem to be concerned with m/m romance more than anything. You ignored the Liara and Kelly romances for some reason. I think it is because you view lesbians as existing to serve your sexual fantasies.

[Eromenos]

paptschik wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

What would you call Katy Perry? An ally to queer folks? Or just some glam princess who profits because a few too many emotionally-brutalized queer people think she's their friend all because she made fake-lesbians titillating and "popular" among lots more people who know nothing about queer theory or queer history in the U.S.?

I dredge her up all the time when I talk about the asari and Kelly because their formula is not-coincidentally identical to hers.

I'd call Katy Perry a person with a very annoying stage etc. persona.
I don't even know what this has to do with anything queer though and I don't see it in ANY way similar to Kelly or Asari.
I think you should stop acting like gay/bi people are all of one and the same opinion anyway. What about gay and bi people that happen to like Zevran or Kelly or Liara for the same reasons a straight person would: Because they're fun and likeable?

I mean, you act like only women hating men would like Kelly or Asari...yet Kelly is probably the favorite or second favorite ME character of my very female best friend .

Katy Perry, albeit not queer, is harmful to queer visibility. Kelly the Human Screensaver is harmful to queer visibility. Asari hourglasses are harmful to queer visibility. They are all limiting, they are all hypocritical, they're all toys. Because they're the only ones allowed to be visible. Sensationalized. Pop culture status. They are the ones that tell lesbians, "You're wrong if you can't be like me."

Why is it that lipstick-lesbians are the only lesbians allowed in mainstream culture? You said that not all queer folks are the same. And yet these 3 examples are. They're the "good ones." The "decent ones." The kind that help guys to get themselves off if they see lesbians as only femme toys.

The problem lies not with lipstick-lesbians. The problem lies with overvaluing lipstick-lesbians in a way that devalues all others, done so at the behest of misogynistic/homophobic mainstream culture.

Yes. So you may happen to like Zevran and Leliana because they're fun and likeable. 100% valid. Both our takes on them are true, though. I can see your POV and mine, simultaneously and clearly. You think I want Leliana and Zevran wiped from existence? I want such characters to be part of casts that aren't set up to tokenize them. DAO failed in that regard. DA2 succeeded. It wasn't perfect, but it was actual progress. For once.

Modifié par Eromenos, 22 mai 2011 - 03:30 .

[SilentNukee]

Tommy6860 wrote...

SilentNukee wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

Super, and I am happy that you won't be getting the game for your reasons, seriously, because in all honesty, you don't deserve the honor being able to experience it anyway, IMO. Maybe Pat Robertson could get a version made just for you, where Dr Chakwas is a mental reprogrammer for the gay characters and sets them straight.

He's just always hating, apparently we're meant to just ignore him.

Maybe I am just getting too old to ignore this as my experiences with the "hate and vile" community has taken its toll.
Aside from one traumatic event my close friend experienced back in the late 80s as a near fatal hate attack. My wife and I have fostered kids from time to time and have been attempting to take on 15yr old girl permanently, who was abused by her mother, literally beaten to where she cannot walk correctly, because the girl is gay. Mother is out of the picture obviously, but the father wants the girl and the state social system has to abide by the laws. The girl wants to stay with us and all of the psychiatric care she has had has helped her greatly, and I fear going back may just set all of that progress back. It's been stressful to say the least, especailly for her, as my wife and I would give up
everything to take her in, she's so happy here and is totally trusting of us and our love for her. I cannot picture it going to pieces. She'snever experienced the kind of acceptance we show her, outside of getting into foster care and being with my wife and I.

Sorry for gush of emotion here, but sometimes this ****g crap just gets to me and I get very defensive.

... That is indeed a very tragic story. But, good in a way because she actually finally did find love and acceptance in a family. Who cares if they're biological or not. I hope she stays with you and your wife...How is the biological father? Is he like the mother?

[paptschik]

Eromenos wrote...

Katy Perry is harmful to queer visibility. Kelly the Human Screensaver is harmful to queer visibility. Asari hourglasses are harmful to queer visibility. They are all limiting, they are all hypocritical. They are the ones that tell lesbians, "You're wrong if you can't be like me."

Why is it that lipstick-lesbians are the only lesbians allowed in mainstream culture? You said that not all queer folks are the same. And yet these 3 examples are. They're the "good ones." The "decent ones." The kind that help guys to get themselves off if they see lesbians as only femme toys.

The problem lies not with lipstick-lesbians. The problem lies with overvaluing lipstick-lesbians in a way that devalues all others, done so at the behest of misogynistic/homophobic mainstream culture.

Yes. So you may happen to like Zevran and Leliana because they're fun and likeable. 100% valid. Both our takes on them are true, though. I can see your POV and mine, simultaneously and clearly. You think I want Leliana and Zevran wiped from existence? I want such characters to be part of casts that aren't set up to tokenize them. DAO failed in that regard. DA2 succeeded. It wasn't perfect, but it succeeded.

But I don't even see ANY similarity between Kelly and most Asari and most Asari among themselves. Liara is NOTHING like Kelly who is NOTHING Aria who is NOTHING like Samara who is NOTHING like Morinth and the list goes on and on and on.
And I don't see them as lipstick lesbians. I had to google what the term even meant and I'm left thinking "so, wait, any lesbian that dares to act femine is a bad example now?"

And I don't see anywhere in the game anyone telling anyone that this is the only way.
I think you see things that are simply not there. Going by your logic I think one could argue for any character in ANYTHING to be some sort of negative token.

[SilentNukee]

Abispa wrote...

M-Sinistrari wrote...

Abispa wrote...

Hmm, I'm afraid that my Shepards would use the opportunity to teach his/her daughter how to shoot the little buggers. But then, knowing Wrex, I'm sure he will, too.

For my Sheps it'd be introducing the kids to the wonderfully fun game of Punch the Pyjak.

Oh, the fun Liara will have teaching baby Shep how to run over Pyjaks with a Mako! Too bad Shepard will be dead of old age by then.

I figure the kid will be around 110-120 by the time Shepard dies. That's plenty of time, they are considered young adults by the age of 60, I think. (Most of them move out around that age.) Eventhough Liara likes to say she's "barely an adult" and 108 at the end of ME2...If I didn't know better I'd picture her as a Matriach, she's just so smart.

[Abispa]

EDIT: Dammit, how to you post graphics in a post!? Grrrr....

Modifié par Abispa, 22 mai 2011 - 03:43 .

[Eromenos]

paptschik wrote...

I think you see insults where there are non.
First of all....have you ever considered that men are more open about being pervs and enjoying a nice stripper? So, you know, you could argue that only female/asari strippers means that the game portrays MEN in a negative light, because thy are such lowly creatures that they'd enjoy these things, whereas their superiors, the women, would not.

That is so twisted. Those female strippers are still powerless. And let's not forget that even FShepard can be made to play into misogynistic F/F fantasies.

And you're glossing over the fact that the type of men I'm talking about are actually titillated if we call them thugs. Understand that they don't care about our value-system, but their value-system gives them undue power. So long as they have power over women, they're happy. The only thing that makes them "real men."

"A nice stripper." You have got to be kidding me. Are you that ignorant of the dangerous power-dynamics in those situations? Oh, but how harmless, 'tis a friendly sexy business exchange. Is that more often the case, or is that less often the case? Not speaking about ideals here, but reality.

Logically though? More men play Mass Effect and more men like women. Plain and simpel and frankly, not such a sin either.
It's also a resources thing. I mean..how many strippers are there REALLY? One and a half dancing in every club in the galaxy looking exactly the same, doing the exact same moves?

So what if more men play ME than women do? That's no reason to act defeatist.

Chora's Den and Afterlife? I haven't counted the hourglasses in those places, but I know they're on every level and they're all female. My, my.

And WHY are men misogynistic if they like Kelly and Asari? That, to me, makes zero sense.
They are made to appeal to men, yes, they are. SO? Just because something appeals to men, does not make it horrible. I think Kelly is a fun character, obviously a well educated one or she wouldn't essentially be the shrink of the Normandy (yeah, this is rarely brought up, but hey, Joker also barely does anything beyond sitting on his ass, complaining and watching porn).
What I think you need to understand is...heterosexual male is NOT the same as a misogynistic guy. 

Hmmm. You're trying to avoid my unpleasant statements about the ME crew's primary intent when they designed Kelly and the asari. They were meant to appeal to misogynistic men first and foremost. But did that ever signify other folks couldn't have legitimate reasons for liking them? In your mind, yes. *shrug*

This just comes down to you not wanting to face the fact that BioWare wasn't reaching out first to you or anyone who is not a misogynistic type of male. Somehow, those token lipstick-lesbians were "made for you." They weren't. But you can and do like them. That's fine. Why not? Oh, but there's an issue if someone dares suggest that those characters also play an unpleasant political role.

Let's see. "Will & Grace" was supposedly made for gay guys. But it wasn't. Same pattern.

Modifié par Eromenos, 22 mai 2011 - 04:15 .

[Siansonea]

Jeepers, if this thread isn't full of one kind of vitriol, it's full of another. We just can't win.

[Abispa]

Siansonea II wrote...

Jeepers, if this thread isn't full of one kind of vitriol, it's full of another. We just can't win.

I guess not. The Rapture happened at 6 p.m. and we're all still here.

[M-Sinistrari]

Abispa wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Jeepers, if this thread isn't full of one kind of vitriol, it's full of another. We just can't win.

I guess not. The Rapture happened at 6 p.m. and we're all still here.

But we're at least in good company with our fellow heathens.

[Abispa]

EDIT: Okay, I figured out what I'm doing wrong, but the image posting process is too damn long and this picture isn't THAT funny, so screw it.

Modifié par Abispa, 22 mai 2011 - 04:17 .

[Eromenos]

paptschik wrote...

But I don't even see ANY similarity between Kelly and most Asari and most Asari among themselves. Liara is NOTHING like Kelly who is NOTHING Aria who is NOTHING like Samara who is NOTHING like Morinth and the list goes on and on and on.
And I don't see them as lipstick lesbians. I had to google what the term even meant and I'm left thinking "so, wait, any lesbian that dares to act femine is a bad example now?"

And I don't see anywhere in the game anyone telling anyone that this is the only way.
I think you see things that are simply not there. Going by your logic I think one could argue for any character in ANYTHING to be some sort of negative token.

Nope, there is nothing wrong with hypersexualized lipstick-lesbians in and of themselves. What's wrong is overvaluing, exploiting, tokenizing, and glamorizing them at the expense of all other types of queer women. Those sorts of things are what Katy Perry, asari, and Kelly are meant for. They're the type who give most straight guys erections. That in itself isn't bad(they're not wrong because they make guys hard), but they're treated as if they're the only "good lesbians" and that all other lesbians are "wrong." As someone noted recently, that makes them only sex-toys for men. The fact that some queer women might like them too is just icing on the cake for that market.

Try to line these examples up as archetypes. Ultra-femme, hourglasses, high voices, etc. Does that make them "wrong?" No. But systemically presenting them as if they're the only ones who are "right" because misogynistic males like them a lot? That's wrong.

I think you give the ME2 characters a lot of respect whereas I give them none, in most cases. Both male and female. This is why it's easy for me to look at them critically to deconstruct their appeal as skin-deep toys mostly designed for guys. Does this mean I can't hear what you're saying? No, I hear it, and it stands. That doesn't make what I see become any less.

Modifié par Eromenos, 22 mai 2011 - 04:13 .

[Erani]

 Just curious...Can Shepard watch movies/sports/the news in that big screen in the captain's room? The "glass" with the ship models, not sure what to call it. 
I'd be nice to chill in bed with LI, watch Titanic together or whatever.

[SilentNukee]

Abispa wrote...

EDIT: Grrrrr. Still trying to figure out how to post pictures. "Text field is manditory."

You type this: {IMG}LINKOFPICTUREHERE{/IMG} but instead of { } use [ ].

Modifié par SilentNukee, 22 mai 2011 - 04:18 .

[Abispa]

@ SilentNukee -- Thanks for the help, but I give up. The picture ain't THAT funny.

EDIT: I'm an idiot.

Modifié par Abispa, 22 mai 2011 - 04:26 .

[Abispa]

Celrath wrote...

Erani wrote...

 Just curious...Can Shepard watch movies/sports/the news in that big screen in the captain's room? The "glass" with the ship models, not sure what to call it. 
I'd be nice to chill in bed with LI, watch Titanic together or whatever.

*Writes down Movie Idea*

Titanic( in SPACE.. Space..space)

ME3: Special Edition comes with DVD copy of Vaenia, starting Shepard and your favorite LI. Or you can set the cast. Or just hit the "random" button. Oh yeah, good times. Got Hallex?