6696 réponses à ce sujet

[M-Sinistrari]

bioware-sucks wrote...

The problem is I don't want a big I am gay/het switch up front.  I want to choose who I am attracted to based on the characters in the game based on the dialog I have with them.  Having a toggle asserts the idea that people are purely gay or het.  It turns out that this is not the case.

***WORDS***

I think the choice needs to be make on a per character basis either through clearly marked dialog options or unlocked via gifts or a similar mechanic.

One suggested variant of toggle that was suggested was to hide all coloured text.  So, if they went the route of using coloured text to highlight what romance/flirt option was what, it would get shifted to plain white along with the paragon/renegade coloured text so people wouldn't feel like they had to choose whatever colour option popped up and just roll with what sounded right for thier Shep.

Would you feel that is as unworkable as the orientation choice toggle or not?

[Aurellia]

paptschik wrote...

bioware-sucks wrote...

The problem is I don't want a big I am gay/het switch up front.  I want to choose who I am attracted to based on the characters in the game based on the dialog I have with them.  Having a toggle asserts the idea that people are purely gay or het.  It turns out that this is not the case.

Okay, this is an argument. I usually decide these things in advance before even making the character.

So my idea of specific in game actions to unlock romances would serve both your style of game play and mine.  It just allows you to opt in to same sex or opposite sex on a per character basis.

So if tough boy hetero-straight Shepard doesn't want doesn't want to play butt darts with Jacob (or anyone else for that matter), then don't buy him flowers or chocolates.  No heterosexual mail in their right mind would even think of buying Jacob flowers.  He might show up with tickets to the stripper club and they can go deepen their hetero-straight friendship.

On the other hand macho gay boy Shepard showing up in Jacob's armory with a red heart shaped box of chocolates would provoke an interesting and fun response for a gay player.

This gives everyone divergent and interesting role-play opportunities without stepping on one another's toes.

[wheelyjon]

M-Sinistrari wrote...

bioware-sucks wrote...

The problem is I don't want a big I am gay/het switch up front.  I want to choose who I am attracted to based on the characters in the game based on the dialog I have with them.  Having a toggle asserts the idea that people are purely gay or het.  It turns out that this is not the case.

***WORDS***

I think the choice needs to be make on a per character basis either through clearly marked dialog options or unlocked via gifts or a similar mechanic.

One suggested variant of toggle that was suggested was to hide all coloured text.  So, if they went the route of using coloured text to highlight what romance/flirt option was what, it would get shifted to plain white along with the paragon/renegade coloured text so people wouldn't feel like they had to choose whatever colour option popped up and just roll with what sounded right for thier Shep.

Would you feel that is as unworkable as the orientation choice toggle or not?

as i was someone who put that point up for discusston i think it could work but it would be only on the first game play screen and id phraze it as 'open romance' -with this you may romance thos avilbe 4 ss romance .... it a choice to click it or not but wat do we care those of us who lobbed for it we have it there are going to be ss li hoorray lol how ever it done Horray

Modifié par wheelyjon, 22 mai 2011 - 06:54 .

[Aurellia]

M-Sinistrari wrote...

And with the gifts thing, only reasons I'm not really a big fan about them is on one hand it's more stuff to have to potentially muck about in the inventory, and the other, it just doesn't quite flow pacingwise if that makes sense.

I know both ME1 &2 will always be paced per plot advancement point so Shep'll always be able to fit in whatever Hackett errand running or fix crewman's daddy issues mission and still get to save the day, but I did find it a bit silly that here's Shep trying to haul *** and save the galaxy, and with everyone knowing how important that is, is still asking her to go make a side trip to to deal with something someone else certainly could've.

The inventory issue can be dealt with pretty easily.  I'm not suggesting millions of character specific gifts that you have to carry around to gain romance.  I'm just saying have gift shops in the various "town" locations in the game.  Hell, even have one on the Normandy.   At most you're going to buy gifts for a few characters that you might want to test the waters with.

In the simplest form you just buy one gift ever to romance your true love.  Since you wind up exploring the "town" areas anyway this isn't exactly a major side trip.  There is already a shop for this kind of stuff in ME2, where you buy fish and ship models.  Heck just allow all that stuff to be given as gifts.  Anything gets added to your cabin can be given to another character as a gift.

Although I'd be a little scared if I was a gay boy and I'd offer the space hamster, Boo, to Grunt:-)

Modifié par bioware-sucks, 22 mai 2011 - 06:55 .

[Aurellia]

M-Sinistrari wrote...

One suggested variant of toggle that was suggested was to hide all coloured text.  So, if they went the route of using coloured text to highlight what romance/flirt option was what, it would get shifted to plain white along with the paragon/renegade coloured text so people wouldn't feel like they had to choose whatever colour option popped up and just roll with what sounded right for thier Shep.

Would you feel that is as unworkable as the orientation choice toggle or not?

I like that option too but it doesn't address the desire of people who don't want to see any same sex content at all.

That is not as much an orientation toggle as much as a show "dialog hints" option, and I am in favor of that.

[wheelyjon]

bioware-sucks wrote...

M-Sinistrari wrote...

And with the gifts thing, only reasons I'm not really a big fan about them is on one hand it's more stuff to have to potentially muck about in the inventory, and the other, it just doesn't quite flow pacingwise if that makes sense.

I know both ME1 &2 will always be paced per plot advancement point so Shep'll always be able to fit in whatever Hackett errand running or fix crewman's daddy issues mission and still get to save the day, but I did find it a bit silly that here's Shep trying to haul *** and save the galaxy, and with everyone knowing how important that is, is still asking her to go make a side trip to to deal with something someone else certainly could've.

The inventory issue can be dealt with pretty easily.  I'm not suggesting millions of character specific gifts that you have to carry around to gain romance.  I'm just saying have gift shops in the various "town" locations in the game.  Hell, even have one on the Normandy.   At most you're going to buy gifts for a few characters that you might want to test the waters with.

In the simplest form you just buy one gift ever to romance your true love.  Since you wind up exploring the "town" areas anyway this isn't exactly a major side trip.  There is already a shop for this kind of stuff in ME2, where you buy fish and ship models.  Heck just allow all that stuff to be given as gifts.  Anything gets added to your cabin can be given to another character as a gift.

Although I'd be a little scared if I was a gay boy and I'd offer the space hamster, Boo, to Grunt:-)

 buy it on your personal terminal or shop it get delivered to them and when you next go bk to the normandy they come find u to talk to you about it hows that?

[M-Sinistrari]

edited: ^ Actually I like Wheelyjon's suggestion better.

bioware-sucks wrote...

The inventory issue can be dealt with pretty easily.  I'm not suggesting millions of character specific gifts that you have to carry around to gain romance.  I'm just saying have gift shops in the various "town" locations in the game.  Hell, even have one on the Normandy.   At most you're going to buy gifts for a few characters that you might want to test the waters with.

In the simplest form you just buy one gift ever to romance your true love.  Since you wind up exploring the "town" areas anyway this isn't exactly a major side trip.  There is already a shop for this kind of stuff in ME2, where you buy fish and ship models.  Heck just allow all that stuff to be given as gifts.  Anything gets added to your cabin can be given to another character as a gift.

Although I'd be a little scared if I was a gay boy and I'd offer the space hamster, Boo, to Grunt:-)

Hmmm...well, while I'm still not 100% on the idea, I can see it as plausible in this light and am intrigued enough to see how it'd play out if it's implimented live.

Modifié par M-Sinistrari, 22 mai 2011 - 07:04 .

[Aurellia]

NICKjnp wrote...

Please quote things other than Wikipedia because Wikipedia can be changed by anyone who has an account.

Ok fine

www.kinseyinstitute.org/resources/ak-hhscale.html


There is nothing wrong with wikipedia.  Anyone with a brain can do their own google if they doubt the veracity of the content on Wikipedia.  And if they do find a hole in my argument due to a bad wikipedia entry then go nuts and skewer me for it:)  I'll concede that j00 w|nz da interwebz in that case

ObWiderOptionsForRomanceInME3

The thing I feel strongly about is that I want to be able to romance any and all love interests in the game while at the same time which is my fantasy of how I would like to be Shepard in the Mass Effect universe

AND

Allow other people to live their fantasy of how they wish to be Shepard in their hetro-normative (gay ass queer) world view.

I am lobbying for a way to make everyone happy and not have to see content they object to.

[M-Sinistrari]

InviolateNK wrote...

Orientation toggle is sort of offensive. Some people should keep in mind that their not the only ones.

An orientation only toggle is a bit hokey, and depending on it's scope of effect can be right out offensive.  Not to mention the coding nightmare it'd end up being.

But at this point we're all just knocking around ideas in a 'throw it at the wall and see what sticks' thing to help Bioware with some workable options they might not've thought of.

[MrGone]

Well this is damn good news! Awesome!

I just hope that the character is well defined, as well as his sexuality. I hope we don't get anything like DA2's weird quantum entangled sexuality states.

[Aurellia]

InviolateNK wrote...

bioware-sucks wrote...

M-Sinistrari wrote...

One suggested variant of toggle that was suggested was to hide all coloured text.  So, if they went the route of using coloured text to highlight what romance/flirt option was what, it would get shifted to plain white along with the paragon/renegade coloured text so people wouldn't feel like they had to choose whatever colour option popped up and just roll with what sounded right for thier Shep.

Would you feel that is as unworkable as the orientation choice toggle or not?

I like that option too but it doesn't address the desire of people who don't want to see any same sex content at all.

That is not as much an orientation toggle as much as a show "dialog hints" option, and I am in favor of that.

Orientation toggle is sort of offensive. Some people should keep in mind that their not the only ones.

I agree that an orientation toggle is offensive and also limiting for bi sexual players and those who enjoy organic roleplay.

As I understand it, the other poster was not really proposing an orientation toggle as a much as a toggle to to colorize/heartify flirty text so that players can easily avoid flirt dialog on characters they wish to avoid it.  The text would be the same, just the "hint" would be present or absent.

[mopotter]

TheSeventhJedi wrote...

I'll drop my two cents in why I'm worried. If you're playing a femshep, and you DON'T want to romance that idiot Jacob - you pretty much have to never ask him about his personal life, and go down the "I hate you forever don't look at me or I'll throw up" route in conversations to avoid things being creepy. When manshep talks to Jacob, he says "I'm just interested in talking for a bit," it sounds casual and completely okay. When femshep says it to him, she sounds like a totally creepy stalker who wants to jump his bones right then and there.

I'll give you Shepards voice being creepy.  But I don't agree that Jacob was that easy to romance.  I tried to romance him at least twice where after the first conversation I backed off and they became friends.  I liked the friendship with Jacob.  Eventually I turned the sound off and did the romance and turned the sound back on after the 2nd conversation was over.  But that was BW fault.   

 I think you're right about doing it like DA2 - but not with gifts. There needs to be a seperate, fourth dialogue option for "flirt." Just because I'm a paragon doesn't mean I want to sleep with you, and just because I'm a renegade doesn't mean I don't. I'm not gay. I don't want to see gay relationships. If you're for people being allowed to like them, then you must give those who find it - disturbing is the nicest word I can come up with, the same freedom of opinion. In DA2, I knew "Uh-oh, Anders has a heart in the dialogue box - do not flirt or you're going to wind up in a relationship with him." I was able to know, without question, which dialogue option to avoid if I didn't want to be gay with a character in the game. As long as the game never just assumes that my Shep is into dudes just because he's nice, I'll be fine.

I would like the option to tell anyone thanks but no thanks, male or female, same sex or opposite,  and just have a friendship path after that.  I would like to find out about my squad without having to romance them in order to get their stories.  Personally found the little heart's irritating in DA2 but I unless I can tell someone I'm not interested the little hearts aren't a terrible thing.

[Strephon Gentry]

And what is offensive about a toggle? It gives a choice. If you want to see "X" then toggle on. It's like a gore setting found in most FPS. I think that would be a good compromise that would make BOTH sides happy.

[Aurellia]

MrGone wrote...

Well this is damn good news! Awesome!

I just hope that the character is well defined, as well as his sexuality. I hope we don't get anything like DA2's weird quantum entangled sexuality states.

That was a very interesting article, however I disagree with his conclusion.

I think for a game like mass effect where the goal is a universe of outcomes that gets instantiated as much as possible as the result of your choices in the game that this kind of quantum entanglement is exactly what we do want.

The key is to pull it off well which DA2 didn't fully accomplish and made it clumsy in ways.  The mechanisms use drew too much attention to the medium and broken immersion.

[M-Sinistrari]

Strephon Gentry wrote...

And what is offensive about a toggle? It gives a choice. If you want to see "X" then toggle on. It's like a gore setting found in most FPS. I think that would be a good compromise that would make BOTH sides happy.

Well, a toggle taken to the extreme would not only remove dialog choices, but any mention/appearance of elements of the remove option.  Just removing the dialog can potentially affect the dialog on the content allowed.

[Aurellia]

Strephon Gentry wrote...

And what is offensive about a toggle? It gives a choice. If you want to see "X" then toggle on. It's like a gore setting found in most FPS. I think that would be a good compromise that would make BOTH sides happy.

This has been discussed quite a bit earlier in the thread.  I'm going to use your example in a bit of an extreme way to make the point.

Likening love between two people of the same sex to gore (something disgusting) sends a subtle message to LGBT people, especially youth that being gay is something disgusting and needs to be kept away from their eyes.

In real life these kind of memes contribute to various harm coming to GLBT folks.  See www.itgetsbetter.org/ if you want to learn more about this.  Some folks may not care about this, and that's fine.  Thankfully Bioware is an inclusive company and does care about these sorts of things.  

Fortunately, it is possible to satisfy both those who have antipathy to the GLBT cause and those who support it as I suggested in my "gift system" posts.

Previous posters have also made analogies such as "why not have a race toggle?" where you can't see or romance people of color because they make you uncomfortable.

While those analogies can be inflammatory they do serve as examples to why a toggle might be troubling.  It is basically a subtle way of condoning or enshrining the distaste for the target class of persons or behavior.

As an interesting moment of Zen, ask yourself why has no-one argued for a paragon/renegade toggle?  After all being nasty/"evil" is probably the biggest thing you want to avoid if you are spiritual or religious in any kind of way^_^

Modifié par bioware-sucks, 22 mai 2011 - 07:36 .

[jeweledleah]

MrGone wrote...

Well this is damn good news! Awesome!

I just hope that the character is well defined, as well as his sexuality. I hope we don't get anything like DA2's weird quantum entangled sexuality states.

I love this article and I fully agree with its conclusions.  in fact - it pretty much mirrors my own opinions and requests.

[PMC65]

Strephon Gentry wrote...

And what is offensive about a toggle? It gives a choice. If you want to see "X" then toggle on. It's like a gore setting found in most FPS. I think that would be a good compromise that would make BOTH sides happy.

Are you crazy? Both sides happy? What have you been drinking? Someone has to be unhappy or uncomfortable!

Seriously, I am with you. There has to be a middle road where everyone can enjoy their game. Hopefully Bioware will look at everyone's concerns and come up with a great solution to implement.  Maybe that is why CHud put this out on twitter 1/2 year + to release.

 BRILLIANT CHud ... let your fanbase brain storm!

[Chromie]

Siansonea II wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

sex ≠ romance. explicit ≠ mature relationship.

You know it, and I know it, but these kids today, they don't know it. Boy are they in for a surprise when they actually find themselves IN relationships...

Married. Your old you need to go with the times<_<

Modifié par Ringo12, 22 mai 2011 - 07:50 .

[Tantum Dic Verbo]

bioware-sucks wrote...

While those analogies can be inflammatory they do serve as examples to why a toggle might be troubling.  It is basically a subtle way of condoning or enshrining the distaste for the target class of persons or behavior.

No, it's a way of acknowledging that some people won't find much entertainment in certain themes.  As people championing the increasing homosexual content are eager to point out, these are just pixels.  If a potentially gay character is toggled into the hetero-normative universe where my Shep lives, who's the victim?

Whereas the inclusion of homosexuality was first advanced as a choice for gay players, now it is treated as a political rallying point.  The game must include homosexuality, and it must confront every player.  Bioware games are now a vehicle for the validation of certain sexual...predilections.  The simple preference not to see it is an insult, a terrible (if not dangerous) statement of intolerance.

Homosexuality between characters has an effect on the theme and tone of a story, just like anything else (such as celibacy).  In a role-playing game, these sorts of things matter.  If, as in DA2, it appears that several teammates are bisexual or (worse yet) have a completely malleable sexuality that can change within a conversation, it colors the story.  When Anders makes a sexual advance, is rejected, and then expresses disappointment (perhaps in the form of rivalry points), it changes the nature of the relationship with Hawke.

If these themes are truly part of Bioware's intended story, they should be written that way.  If, however, they are just fanservice to a tirelessly vocal homosexual segment of the fanbase, then they are disposable and can omitted for players with different tastes.  Some of us, for example, are glad that Aragon and Boromir never got around to sodomy during The Fellowship of the Ring.  In fact, some of us may be so foamingly intolerant that we wouldn't have finished the book if they had.

If Bioware is committed to showing the world that such people have no place in their fanbase, they are in an excellent position to make that statement.

[jeweledleah]

Ringo12 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

sex ≠ romance. explicit ≠ mature relationship.

You know it, and I know it, but these kids today, they don't know it. Boy are they in for a surprise when they actually find themselves IN relationships...

Married. Your old you need to go with the times<_<

and I will reiterate.  sex=/= romance.  you can have plenty of sex that is in no way romantic, and you can have romance without sex (before you say anything - asexuals for one, would like to have a word with you - just becasue they are not interested in sex, doens't mean they are not interested in love)

moreover - explicit scenes in whatever media =/= depiction of mature relationship. "I give you some bear pelts and you have a quickie with me on them" - is not a relationship at all, its a quickie.  and I could go on.

relationships are more then just sex.  and you don't need an explicit scene to depict a relationship with depth.

[M-Sinistrari]

PMC65 wrote...

Seriously, I am with you. There has to be a middle road where everyone can enjoy their game. Hopefully Bioware will look at everyone's concerns and come up with a great solution to implement.  Maybe that is why CHud put this out on twitter 1/2 year + to release.

 BRILLIANT CHud ... let your fanbase brain storm!

From my own experience, getting a crowd to brainstorm always ends up with some interesting ideas that can end up also working for something completely different than what the project is.