6696 réponses à ce sujet

[Olwydd]

Phaelducan wrote...


For that matter, why is it offensive to the gay community for a strong male or female "blank-slate" type character to not be able to be gay in the first place? Why is it any different for a sexual orientation to be predetermined on the straight side then the bisexual side? 

I don't think anyone is saying that they're offended by heterosexual player characters. What many are asking for is the option to play as a homosexual or bisexual character, and are questioning why there should be any pre-determination to begin with - it is, after all, a role-playing game, and people are invested in their characters.

[Ryzaki]

Siansonea II wrote...
So where in the game is an example of Shepard's sexuality informing non-romance interaction? Does Gay Shepard shoot Collectors differently than Straight Shepard? Because FemShep and MaleShep don't seem to do very much differently than each other (BTW, close your legs when you're wearing a skirt, FemShep).

Agreed. If sexuality was so important to character personality as I see some people claiming why do femshep and male shepard act so damn similar? Lesbian femshep and straight femshep can act exactly the same. 

Why does her sexuality not change her then? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 16 mai 2011 - 05:59 .

[Sherbet Lemon]

TheMarshal wrote...

Shepard's ability to pursue a romantic relationship, on the other hand, is a key point to both of the Mass Effect games.  All people are asking is for the ability to pursue a relationship the way that they would like to.

This is ultimately what it boils down to for me.

Who am I too interfere with someone's gaming experience just because that person may choose options which don't conform to my preconceived notion of a character?  I'm going to copy Mr. Gaider here and state the obvious: it reeks of privilege.

This is the danger of binary thinking.  This is what happens when you try to pigeonhole people into either/or categorizations that do not hold.  How can a person be both?  How can a person change sexuality?  Is that not intrinsic to identity?  A person can be many things, hold many different beliefs, and maintain a similarly complex sexuality or worldview.  There are plenty that do operate in this manner and manage just fine.

In the case of narrative:

Here's what it comes down to in my opinion:  people change.  People realize certain truths about themselves and accept it.  It's not so hard to imagine that in a life or death situation Ashley might realize that she is in love with female Shepard and rather than die with regret, she lives with the reality of the situation.
In ME3, I'm hoping that's the case but switch out Ashley for Miranda. 

[Clonedzero]

Siansonea II wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Yeah, why NOT now? What is so pre-defined about EVERY SHEPARD that precludes the possibility of same-sex interest? Especially since the female version of Shepard already pushes that boundary? Maybe it takes male Shepard a little longer to find a willing partner, but that doesn't mean some male Shepards haven't been just as interested as FemShep has been in a little same-sex action.

oh what? i wasnt saying shepards predefined backround suggested he was a specific sexual orientation.

you can be gay and be in a gang, you can be gay and be a miltiary brat, you can be gay and be a farmer colonist.

So how exactly does your "why now?" trump our "why not now?" then?

are you talking about shepard? well thats different, he's your character (or she).
if you're talking about specific established characters tahts another matter all together.

i see absolutely nothing wrong with shepard being able to be gay in ME3. hell he shoudla been able to be gay from the start.

[InvaderErl]

Ryzaki wrote...


What gender conventions does Morrigan's romance plays off that Zevran's don't? Because I can recall quite a few in my m/m Zevran romances. 

[spoilers for DAO I guess for those who care]

Morrigan is a seductress that is used to having her way with men and wants to have the Warden's Old God Baby. She fits the classic femme fatale archetype. As her relationship grows with the warden we get that she fears being emotionally shackled to a man and losing her independence but she also has doubts that she could even be a "proper" lover/wife/whatever if she wanted to be. There's a lot going on involving power and gender throughout her character arc that gets accentuated by the romantic involvement and Morrigan subverts some of those conventions and plays into them as well during various points in the plot. That's not stuff I'm reading into and contextualizing from a real world vantage point but rather things that are almost said outright by the game.

That's a setup that really could not work with a Female Warden, whereas Zevran's does because its not really geared towards any specific gender.

Again I'm not saying that makes one subjectively better than the other.

Ryzaki wrote...

I'm still not seeing it. Him calling her siha doesn't make her gender somehow more important in the romance than in Merrill's. (Or heck let's use Anders because I'm more used to him). Him going woman once in a while doesn't make her gender more significant (not to mention the DA2 Lis call Hawke by his/her gender as well). 

I'm saying her gender plays a connection in the romance to Thane's dead wife (and one that Shepard can bring up herself). In fact the wife connection can become a deal breaker if Shepard is worried that Thane is trying to replace a dead woman with another. Its an intrinsic part of that relationship because the shadow of his dead wife hangs over Thane's entire life.

For Merril, that Hawke is a woman really seems to play no role of importance in the romance. That's really something that carries through the DA2 romances. They are blurbs but they are not major facets. Now I'm not necessarily saying that it has to in order to be good it has to be about gender roles and such but when you have 4 bi interests that all sort of carry forward this feeling they tend to blend against one another.

In any case we're getting off the focus of my concerns which again breaks down to the content becoming less specific in these ways in favor of something more generic. When you consider that you would essentially have 3 major varients of returning love interests if they were suddenly s/s, its not I think a completely baseless concern that they might decide to dial some of that development back in order to keep the various versions on the same page.

Ryzaki wrote...

I was never pro new LIs and existing LIs. I was pro the former but not the latter. But now that we're getting new LIs anyway they might as well be bi. 

The new love interests being bisexual is totally fine with me. I'm for it, completely 100%.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 16 mai 2011 - 06:04 .

[SennenScale]

Clonedzero wrote...

the simple fact that you are attracted to some people and not others fundmentally changes your perspective of the world and of people. not saying its a huge thing or massively alters someones behavior but it does have some effect.

Your world, maybe. Not mine.

I grew up with gay, straight and bisexual people. That  probably changed my worldview. But being straight? I do not treat people differently because of it. I treat my boyfriends as my boyfriends of course, but I do not treat anyone else differently just because I am a straight woman. I do not think of all dudes as potential romance material.


As I have said, it is a drop in the bucket at best. Being unable to go to the beach with getting severe burns (being a ginger) has had the greater effect on me than straightness!

[Clonedzero]

Siansonea II wrote...


So where in the game is an example of Shepard's sexuality informing non-romance interaction? Does Gay Shepard shoot Collectors differently than Straight Shepard? Because FemShep and MaleShep don't seem to do very much differently than each other (BTW, close your legs when you're wearing a skirt, FemShep).

what does shooting dudes have to do with sex? like...at all?

besides. shepard being a different orentiation is portrayed through YOU roleplaying him as such. you simply defining shepards sexual preference changes your shepards character. by a significant degree? i dunno its your shepard, but it is at least a very slight change. it could change how you play your shepard or it could simply only change the fact that you see shepard as gay.

you're making that a way bigger deal than it is lol

[bleetman]

Phaelducan wrote...

You don't turn gay, and the writers are doing a foolish and shortsighted thing by allowing Shepard to do just that.

For that matter, why is it offensive to the gay community for a strong male or female "blank-slate" type character to not be able to be gay in the first place? Why is it any different for a sexual orientation to be predetermined on the straight side then the bisexual side? 

Personally? I don't find having a straight character be straight to be offensive. Implying that they can never deviate from that path ever whilst heterosexual people explain how bi/homosexuality works? Now we're getting there. I don't need others to explain the ins and outs and bi-sexuality to me, thank you.

In truth, I fail to see the issue. If Shepard represented him or herself as being completely straight in the mind of some players, there's nothing that will insist they change that. You'll not be forced into anything. Meanwhile, those who wanted some same-sex interaction (and have that decision be actually fully fleshed out and respected, rather than Kelly's romance-lite) will have the option to do. Everybody wins.

Yet this apparently is unacceptable. I'm having trouble believing that the issue is over plot and characterisation, rather than just plain being made uncomfortable by it.

Modifié par bleetman, 16 mai 2011 - 06:06 .

[Siansonea]

Clonedzero wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...


So where in the game is an example of Shepard's sexuality informing non-romance interaction? Does Gay Shepard shoot Collectors differently than Straight Shepard? Because FemShep and MaleShep don't seem to do very much differently than each other (BTW, close your legs when you're wearing a skirt, FemShep).

what does shooting dudes have to do with sex? like...at all?

besides. shepard being a different orentiation is portrayed through YOU roleplaying him as such. you simply defining shepards sexual preference changes your shepards character. by a significant degree? i dunno its your shepard, but it is at least a very slight change. it could change how you play your shepard or it could simply only change the fact that you see shepard as gay.

you're making that a way bigger deal than it is lol

I'm responding to people who claim that Shepard "can't be gay" because of the first two games.

[Ghost Warrior]

Xilizhra wrote...


You make quite a few assumptions about bisexual people. It's not a simple thing. Perhaps Tali thought Shepard would be offended. Male Shepard never had a chance to flirt with Garrus at all. There are far more possibilities than you seem to accept.

Now you are the one making assumptions. So let's make some more:
"Tali thought Shepard would be offended" - they all might as well die,offending someone is at least of their worries
"Male Shepard never had a chance to flirt with Garrus at all" -exactly what I was saying,why didn't he have a chance?

[Siansonea]

Oh Wereparrot, where are you? I really wanted you to weigh in on this...

Wereparrot wrote...
*snip*

Why should it matter who fathers the child? How can asari be purely female if they can play the reproductive role of both genders?

Well, it's not that simple, is it? And guess what, if asari ARE hermaphrodites or whatever you want to call them, GUESS WHAT THAT MEANS. That's right, your precious MaleShep, who is banging Liara, is banging a HERMAPHRODITE. So do you STILL want to maintain that asari aren't female?

*snip*
Of course, but there's been TWO GAMES where Shepherd has been straight (Kelly notwitstanding, but I'm not sure she counts at this stage). And like I said again, Bioware had a good chance to introduce bi options in ME2 when Shepherd was 'dead': all that needed to be done was to say that Shepherd had lost some balance through the ordeal, but no. If we must have bi options, they missed the boat in my opinion. 

You say "Shepard has been straight for two games", but you don't provide any examples of this. Shepard has had the option to express a heterosexual lifestyle in two games, but in no way is Shepard forced to pursue heterosexual romance. Shepard can tell all the opposite-sex LIs to go away, how is that proving he's straight?

[Siansonea]

Ghost Warrior wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...


You make quite a few assumptions about bisexual people. It's not a simple thing. Perhaps Tali thought Shepard would be offended. Male Shepard never had a chance to flirt with Garrus at all. There are far more possibilities than you seem to accept.

Now you are the one making assumptions. So let's make some more:
"Tali thought Shepard would be offended" - they all might as well die,offending someone is at least of their worries
"Male Shepard never had a chance to flirt with Garrus at all" -exactly what I was saying,why didn't he have a chance?

Why didn't he have the chance to flirt with Tali in the first game? He could obviously talk to her about other stuff. I guess Shepard just isn't into quarians, huh?

[Clonedzero]

SennenScale wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

the simple fact that you are attracted to some people and not others fundmentally changes your perspective of the world and of people. not saying its a huge thing or massively alters someones behavior but it does have some effect.

Your world, maybe. Not mine.

I grew up with gay, straight and bisexual people. That  probably changed my worldview. But being straight? I do not treat people differently because of it. I treat my boyfriends as my boyfriends of course, but I do not treat anyone else differently just because I am a straight woman. I do not think of all dudes as potential romance material.


As I have said, it is a drop in the bucket at best. Being unable to go to the beach with getting severe burns (being a ginger) has had the greater effect on me than straightness!

a drop in the bucket is still a drop in the bucket. just because it has an extremely minor effect on you doesnt mean it has no effect.

example. if your perfect ideal man, like every physical feature you find most attractive was put into one perfect dude, and he was wearing next to nothing and he was walking by you to your right, and some random girl wearing next to nothing was walking by to your left. which way are you gonna look? im guessing right, am i right? of course i am, no reason not to. thats not a signifrant change obviously but its still a behavioral preference. does it define who you are? absolutely not.

almost too subtle to put to words, but it obviously has a minor effect on your preferences, your opinions, that sorta stuff.

[BrandNewMan]

Casey explicitly stated new LIs, so why are people still assuming they're turning old ones bi and blaming Bioware for it?

Modifié par BrandNewMan, 16 mai 2011 - 06:11 .

[Ghost Warrior]

Siansonea II wrote...

Ghost Warrior wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...


You make quite a few assumptions about bisexual people. It's not a simple thing. Perhaps Tali thought Shepard would be offended. Male Shepard never had a chance to flirt with Garrus at all. There are far more possibilities than you seem to accept.

Now you are the one making assumptions. So let's make some more:
"Tali thought Shepard would be offended" - they all might as well die,offending someone is at least of their worries
"Male Shepard never had a chance to flirt with Garrus at all" -exactly what I was saying,why didn't he have a chance?

Why didn't he have the chance to flirt with Tali in the first game? He could obviously talk to her about other stuff. I guess Shepard just isn't into quarians, huh?

You are right there. It was indeed a mistake,one that should not be repeated. It's too late for ME2,but there is still hope for ME3(in this regard,I mean)

[InvaderErl]

BrandNewMan wrote...

Casey explicitly stated new LIs, so why are people still assuming they're turning old ones bi and blaming Bioware for it?

He said in response to the question, "Not necessarily" which isn't really a denial.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 16 mai 2011 - 06:11 .

[Phaelducan]

TheMarshal wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

No, all people are asking for is to "all of a sudden" be able to pursue a relationship the way they would like to. If it in ME1 or ME2 no one would care. It wasn't, and now it will be for ME3, which is why it's stupid. Hell, for that matter it's disempowering. Bioware is essentially saying that Shepard all of  a sudden turned gay, which is ridiculous. 

His relationships are not a key point in any case, they are minor, in that they represent functionally maybe 2-3 minutes of dialog and one extra short cut scene in a game of 30-60 hours. Drop in the bucket, and not worth even MORE resources to provide MORE diversity for most of us who quite frankly don't care. I want a good end to the narrative, not more awkward dialog to sort through to avoid a "whoops Anders" moment.

Again, to beat a dead horse, go play some Fallout to see this issue tackled well. This is just simply a poor way to represent sexual orientation in a video game.

First point: Tali and Garrus were not romanceable in ME1, "suddenly" were so in ME2.  I'm curious if that caused an issue for you (I honestly can't remember if I've asked you this question before, but it feels like I'm having the same argument over and over).

Second point: Unless Bioware strips MaleShep of the ability to romance women, including the women he has romanced in the past, there is no way that Shepard can "turn gay".  Your assertion that having the option available to those that seek to exercise it somehow makes him canonically gay is way off the mark.

Third point: Avoiding an "Anders" moment isn't any more difficult than avoiding any OTHER unwanted romance.  "I think of you as a great friend" is really that much of a buzzkill for you that you'd prefer to have it left out of the game entirely than allow the people who actually might want to take a different path to do so?

Fourth point: Saying that resources are being "wasted" on s/s romances, while in the same breath calling the romances a "minor" part of the game does very little to prove your point.

I haven't played Fallout.  Is there any particular one you suggest?

None of it caused an issue for me, including now. It's a stupid design decision, but I'll play it anyway. It will probably rock in any case, I just don't see the point of the change. I can't prove that I don't care, but literally it won't go anywhere and nobodies mind will change so I will say with all honestly that this is a fruitless conversation.

However, for the sake of argument...

I don't equate Tali and Garrus because at the end of the day, they are still male/female. You could romance Liara in ME1, so the precedent was set for hot alien loving. Attaction to Tali is similar to that of any other Female, and Garrus to any other Male (look at Thane). The argument of "but you couldn't romance them in ME1" doesn't hold water as you could apply that to any facet of the game not in ME1, and that's too great a logical leap. 
Second point, it isn't off the mark, as there was absolutely no way to romance the same sex in ME1 or 2. It simply didn't exist. The argument of "just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't there" also doesn't hold water. Double negative, logical fallacy, blah blah blah. I don't see Shep eat dead Krogans either, but that doesn't mean I can logically assume that he does. If you don't see it, it's more likely that it isn't there.
Third point. It is difficult to avoid if you play a nice-guy Shep and want to see all the dialog you can. Bioware has clearly shown that they don't excel at nuance or subtlety in dialog, which is why the Anders issue was so prevalent. It WAS annoying if you didn't play a bi-Hawke, and if Bioware can't do it right, they shouldn't do it at all. 
Fourth point. ME2 is one of my favorite games on this console cycle, and I have high expectation for 3. I don't see any benefit to changing the sexual orientation possibilities for Shep this late in the process for no quantifiable good reason (and before the fire and pitchforks come in I just want to clarify that there are plenty of awesome games that don't have homosexual protagonists. Just because a hero isn't gay doesn' t mean it can't be an enjoyable game for a variety of demographics). It WAS a non-issue, and didn't need to be addressed in Mass Effect. Now, it is being addressed (foolishly I think), and I think that's a mistake. Shrug
Oh, and play any Fallout. 

[Zall]

"Wider romance options"? Does that mean...

JOKER IS FINALLY A LOVE INTEREST? *cheer*

[ReveurIngenu]

I think what people who can't understand why Bioware is implementing same sex relationships need to understand is this: Shepard isn't turning gay.  Bioware is simply allowing those who would like to play him the way they want to to be able to do so.

If your Shepard is straight, then all you have to do is continue playing him as such.  Your Shepard hasn't turned gay, Bioware is simply allowing others to play their Shepard as such!

How does that affect you?  Why do you feel that the POSSIBILITY of someone playing their Shepard gay makes your Shepard gay as well?  Your Shepard will stay as straight as you want him to stay if you play him that way! 

Seriously, there is absolutely nothing logical about the arguments from those complaining about Bioware making Shepard all of a sudden gay.  He's only gay if you choose to make him gay!

[Ohpus]

It would partially explain why Liara was coming back. Though I did get a feeling Kaiden could have been flirting with Shep in ME1 given some of the conversation options.

I makes perfect sense if Jack was brought back as a bi LI given that she leaned both ways at one time or another. Though why she blew off FemShep in ME2 is a mystery. Too much baggage?

Modifié par Ohpus, 16 mai 2011 - 06:16 .

[Ryzaki]

InvaderErl wrote...

[spoilers for DAO I guess for those who care]

Morrigan is a seductress that is used to having her way with men and wants to have the Warden's Old God Baby. She fits the classic femme fatale archetype. As her relationship grows with the warden we get that she fears being emotionally shackled to a man and losing her independence but she also has doubts that she could even be a "proper" lover/wife/whatever if she wanted to be. There's a lot going on involving power and gender throughout her character arc that gets accentuated by the romantic involvement and Morrigan subverts some of those conventions and plays into them as well during various points in the plot. That's not stuff I'm reading into and contextualizing from a real world vantage point but rather things that are almost said outright by the game.

Morrigan doesn't want to be a proper/wife/whatever so I don't see where you got that from. (And if that is true the character is even more rollercoasterish than I initally thought). The most I've seen is her questioning why the Warden loves her because she cannot comprehend love. (before being able to magically comprehend it enough to fall in love despite the fact that being raised by Flemeth she should be a borderline if not complete sociopath and even acts as such on several occasions). As for the femme fatale bit that is true. She is insecure and questions her relationship with the warden (and in fact that irked me because of I'm so sick of the damsal in distress realizing she loves the big strapping hero and ends up changing to accomdate him. Not to mention her characterization to me was all over the place one minute she's smart and manipulative and sociopathic the next she just wants to be loved.). If needing to fit into gender roles means the characterization ends up like hers I could really do without. 

Which power and gender conventions are you talking about? 

And what's outright said by the game?

That's a setup that really could not work with a Female Warden, whereas Zevran's does because its not really geared towards any specific gender.

No it couldn't. Zevran's works because it doesn't rely on gender sterotypes which to me was a breathe of fresh air. 

Again I'm not saying that makes one subjectively better than the other.

Indeed it doesn't because I felt her characterization was ruined by her falling in love with a man to the extent that he let her in her plans despite leaving him alone not even a few months previously. 

Ryzaki wrote...

I'm saying her gender plays a connection in the romance to Thane's dead wife (and one that Shepard can bring up herself). In fact the wife connection can become a deal breaker if Shepard is worried that Thane is trying to replace a dead woman with another. Its an intrinsic part of that relationship because the shadow of his dead wife hangs over Thane's entire life.

And that requires her be a female? One can back away because of that with male Shepard as well. It would simply be in that case replacing one lover for another instead of one woman for anohter. Did he call Irikah siha? I can't remember. 

For Merril, that Hawke is a woman really seems to play no role of importance in the romance. That's really something that carries through the DA2 romances. They are blurbs but they are not major facets. Now I'm not necessarily saying that it has to in order to be good it has to be about gender roles and such but when you have 4 bi interests that all sort of carry forward this feeling they tend to blend against one another.

In any case we're getting off the focus of my concerns which again breaks down to the content becoming less specific in these ways in favor of something more generic.

And I loved that. I loved that my femaleness wasn't something that was scruntinized ad "Oh! You're a chick!" that irks me. Yes I'm female. Can we move on? So we seem to have different preferences in romances completely. I don't mind more genericness if the nongenericness tends to irritate and annoy me. 

The new love interests being bisexual is totally fine with me. I'm for it, completely 100%.

Alright. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 16 mai 2011 - 06:21 .

[Siansonea]

Ghost Warrior wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Ghost Warrior wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...


You make quite a few assumptions about bisexual people. It's not a simple thing. Perhaps Tali thought Shepard would be offended. Male Shepard never had a chance to flirt with Garrus at all. There are far more possibilities than you seem to accept.

Now you are the one making assumptions. So let's make some more:
"Tali thought Shepard would be offended" - they all might as well die,offending someone is at least of their worries
"Male Shepard never had a chance to flirt with Garrus at all" -exactly what I was saying,why didn't he have a chance?

Why didn't he have the chance to flirt with Tali in the first game? He could obviously talk to her about other stuff. I guess Shepard just isn't into quarians, huh?

You are right there. It was indeed a mistake,one that should not be repeated. It's too late for ME2,but there is still hope for ME3(in this regard,I mean)

So, what exactly are you saying is a mistake for ME3, Gay ManShep, or Bisexual Kaidan/Ashley/Whoever?

[bleetman]

Phaelducan wrote...

I don't see any benefit to changing the sexual orientation possibilities for Shep this late in the process for no quantifiable good reason (and before the fire and pitchforks come in I just want to clarify that there are plenty of awesome games that don't have homosexual protagonists. Just because a hero isn't gay doesn' t mean it can't be an enjoyable game for a variety of demographics). It WAS a non-issue, and didn't need to be addressed in Mass Effect.

It was a non-issue to you. It was an issue to many other people. This change alters nothing from your perspective, but satisfies those who wanted it. Nobody is forced to play their character a certain way anymore, with regards to sexuality. Everybody wins. But apparently this is unaceptable, and must be reverted.

And you wonder why people take offense to this criticism? For crying out loud.

ReveurIngenu wrote...

I think what people who can't understand why Bioware is implementing same sex relationships need to
understand is this: Shepard isn't turning gay.  Bioware is simply allowing those who would like to play him the way they want to to be able to do so.

If your Shepard is straight, then all you have to do is continue playing him as such.  Your Shepard hasn't turned gay, Bioware is simply allowing others to play their Shepard as such!

How does that affect you?  Why do you feel that the POSSIBILITY of someone playing their Shepard gay makes your Shepard gay as well?  Your Shepard will stay as straight as you want him to stay if you play him that way! 


Seriously, there is absolutely nothing logical about the arguments from those complaining about Bioware making Shepard all of a sudden gay.  He's only gay if you choose to make him gay!

Yes, exactly. Thank you for actually getting it.

Modifié par bleetman, 16 mai 2011 - 06:20 .

[Siansonea]

Phaelducan wrote...

TheMarshal wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

No, all people are asking for is to "all of a sudden" be able to pursue a relationship the way they would like to. If it in ME1 or ME2 no one would care. It wasn't, and now it will be for ME3, which is why it's stupid. Hell, for that matter it's disempowering. Bioware is essentially saying that Shepard all of  a sudden turned gay, which is ridiculous. 

His relationships are not a key point in any case, they are minor, in that they represent functionally maybe 2-3 minutes of dialog and one extra short cut scene in a game of 30-60 hours. Drop in the bucket, and not worth even MORE resources to provide MORE diversity for most of us who quite frankly don't care. I want a good end to the narrative, not more awkward dialog to sort through to avoid a "whoops Anders" moment.

Again, to beat a dead horse, go play some Fallout to see this issue tackled well. This is just simply a poor way to represent sexual orientation in a video game.

First point: Tali and Garrus were not romanceable in ME1, "suddenly" were so in ME2.  I'm curious if that caused an issue for you (I honestly can't remember if I've asked you this question before, but it feels like I'm having the same argument over and over).

Second point: Unless Bioware strips MaleShep of the ability to romance women, including the women he has romanced in the past, there is no way that Shepard can "turn gay".  Your assertion that having the option available to those that seek to exercise it somehow makes him canonically gay is way off the mark.

Third point: Avoiding an "Anders" moment isn't any more difficult than avoiding any OTHER unwanted romance.  "I think of you as a great friend" is really that much of a buzzkill for you that you'd prefer to have it left out of the game entirely than allow the people who actually might want to take a different path to do so?

Fourth point: Saying that resources are being "wasted" on s/s romances, while in the same breath calling the romances a "minor" part of the game does very little to prove your point.

I haven't played Fallout.  Is there any particular one you suggest?

None of it caused an issue for me, including now. It's a stupid design decision, but I'll play it anyway. It will probably rock in any case, I just don't see the point of the change. I can't prove that I don't care, but literally it won't go anywhere and nobodies mind will change so I will say with all honestly that this is a fruitless conversation.

However, for the sake of argument...

I don't equate Tali and Garrus because at the end of the day, they are still male/female. You could romance Liara in ME1, so the precedent was set for hot alien loving. Attaction to Tali is similar to that of any other Female, and Garrus to any other Male (look at Thane). The argument of "but you couldn't romance them in ME1" doesn't hold water as you could apply that to any facet of the game not in ME1, and that's too great a logical leap. 
Second point, it isn't off the mark, as there was absolutely no way to romance the same sex in ME1 or 2. It simply didn't exist. The argument of "just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't there" also doesn't hold water. Double negative, logical fallacy, blah blah blah. I don't see Shep eat dead Krogans either, but that doesn't mean I can logically assume that he does. If you don't see it, it's more likely that it isn't there.
Third point. It is difficult to avoid if you play a nice-guy Shep and want to see all the dialog you can. Bioware has clearly shown that they don't excel at nuance or subtlety in dialog, which is why the Anders issue was so prevalent. It WAS annoying if you didn't play a bi-Hawke, and if Bioware can't do it right, they shouldn't do it at all. 
Fourth point. ME2 is one of my favorite games on this console cycle, and I have high expectation for 3. I don't see any benefit to changing the sexual orientation possibilities for Shep this late in the process for no quantifiable good reason (and before the fire and pitchforks come in I just want to clarify that there are plenty of awesome games that don't have homosexual protagonists. Just because a hero isn't gay doesn' t mean it can't be an enjoyable game for a variety of demographics). It WAS a non-issue, and didn't need to be addressed in Mass Effect. Now, it is being addressed (foolishly I think), and I think that's a mistake. Shrug
Oh, and play any Fallout. 

It cracks me up that people see having sex with ALIENS to be less of a stretch than having sex with a human of the same gender. Aliens with hostile body chemistry, no less. I'm attracted to male humans, but I'm not attracted to male chimpanzees, male dolphins, or male "aliens" in video games. I would definitely give a human girl a go WAY before I'd hop in the sack with a turian. But maybe that's just me.

[BrandNewMan]

InvaderErl wrote...

BrandNewMan wrote...

Casey explicitly stated new LIs, so why are people still assuming they're turning old ones bi and blaming Bioware for it?

He said in response to the question, "Not necessarily" which isn't really a denial.

Well I think people are still assuming WAY too much as far as what Bioware's plans are. Seems assumption is a running theme in this thread.