6696 réponses à ce sujet

[Clonedzero]

this thread is too serious.

kaidan? more like GAYdan, am i right guys?!

[DaeJi]

Clonedzero wrote...

this thread is too serious.

kaidan? more like GAYdan, am i right guys?!

Having fun would get me banned.

[SennenScale]

Clonedzero wrote...
a drop in the bucket is still a drop in the bucket. just because it has an extremely minor effect on you doesnt mean it has no effect.

example. if your perfect ideal man, like every physical feature you find most attractive was put into one perfect dude, and he was wearing next to nothing and he was walking by you to your right, and some random girl wearing next to nothing was walking by to your left. which way are you gonna look? im guessing right, am i right? of course i am, no reason not to. thats not a signifrant change obviously but its still a behavioral preference. does it define who you are? absolutely not.

almost too subtle to put to words, but it obviously has a minor effect on your preferences, your opinions, that sorta stuff.

The girl. That's illegal where I live, and it never, ever happens, so it is way more noticeable. I just do not think of random people whom I don't know in a sexual way until I get to know them. A quirk of mine, perhaps.

But even if one oogles the people they meet, I don't think that counts as having an effect on their personality, it's just a reflection of their sex drive.

[Wereparrot]

Siansonea II wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
*snip*
You're trying to deny that asari are female, when they clearly, you know, give birth to baby asari. And Shepard wasn't "established" as anything in ME1, because Shepard didn't HAVE to pursue romance AT ALL. Shepard can tell Liara AND Ashley "how about no", then in ME2 tell Miranda, Jack, and Tali "how about no". So what exactly has been "established" for ALL MALE SHEPARDS, hmmmmmmmmmmmmm?

Asari are also fathers, so like I said in my first post: don't give me any of this arogant rubbish. You cannot take Bioware's creation and make it your own. 


If Shepherd doesn't pursue a romance, that doesn't make his character any less straight, because Bioware decided that the available romances would be straight, as they were in ME2, apart from the aimless fraterrnisation with Kelly for female Shepherds.

I'm not doing anything of the kind. A human female can "father" an asari child. Does that make her a man? Clearly you're the one attempting to rewrite the Codex, pal.

Why should it matter who fathers the child? How can asari be purely female if they can play the reproductive role of both genders?

Well, it's not that simple, is it? And guess what, if asari ARE hermaphrodites or whatever you want to call them, GUESS WHAT THAT MEANS.  That's right, your precious MaleShep, who is banging Liara, is banging a HERMAPHRODITE. So do you STILL want to maintain that asari aren't female?

Yes. For me, at least, asari are neither male or female in human classification, so neither male or female Shepherd romancing Liara can be called gay with any degree of finality.

You know what happens when you don't pursue romance? You remain UNDECLARED. Your simplistic notion is like saying everyone who you've never seen eat Mexican food automatically prefers Chinese food.

Of course, but there's been TWO GAMES where Shepherd has been straight (Kelly notwitstanding, but I'm not sure she counts at this stage). And like I said again, Bioware had a good chance to introduce bi options in ME2 when Shepherd was 'dead': all that needed to be done was to say that Shepherd had lost some balance through the ordeal, but no. If we must have bi options, they missed the boat in my opinion. 

You say "Shepard has been straight for two games", but you don't provide any examples of this. Shepard has had the option to express a heterosexual lifestyle in two games, but in no way is Shepard forced to pursue heterosexual romance. Shepard can tell all the opposite-sex LIs to go away, how is that proving he's straight?

Why should I? Just because you don't like it doesn't Bioware didn't originally intend Shepherd to be straight, for whatever reason, and it's because of several unsatisfied fans that we've got the addition of bi options at this ludicrously late stage in Shepherd's story.

Modifié par Wereparrot, 16 mai 2011 - 06:27 .

[jlb524]

Ryzaki wrote...

And I loved that. I loved that my femaleness wasn't something that was scruntinized ad "Oh! You're a chick!" that irks me. Yes I'm female. Can we move on? So we seem to have different preferences in romances completely. I don't mind more genericness if the nongenericness tends to irritate and annoy me. 

werd

It seems a bit unrealistic when people bring up gender...that hardly happens in real life.  It's like everyone assumes that these LIs should react like, "OMG you are a woman and so am I...how weird!" in order to validate it.

[Wereparrot]

Messed up the quote

Modifié par Wereparrot, 16 mai 2011 - 06:29 .

[Siansonea]

So, does anyone want to address the alien question?

For all we know, turians mate by rubbing patches of skin together, and the male's spermatozoa enters the female's body through a bunch of pores in her skin. We don't know that they have human-like genitalia at all. Same goes for quarians, they might have all sorts of odd physical attributes under those suits. Who knows, maybe the female has a penis-like structure containing an ovum that penetrates the male, and his spermatozoa fertilize her egg that way. Reproductive sex doesn't necessarily equate to compatibility for human recreational sex. So why is it "perfectly understandable for Shepard to get with an opposite sex alien (with hostile dextro-chiral body chemistry), and yet the idea that ManShep might swing both ways is completely unbelievable?

[Clonedzero]

SennenScale wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...
a drop in the bucket is still a drop in the bucket. just because it has an extremely minor effect on you doesnt mean it has no effect.

example. if your perfect ideal man, like every physical feature you find most attractive was put into one perfect dude, and he was wearing next to nothing and he was walking by you to your right, and some random girl wearing next to nothing was walking by to your left. which way are you gonna look? im guessing right, am i right? of course i am, no reason not to. thats not a signifrant change obviously but its still a behavioral preference. does it define who you are? absolutely not.

almost too subtle to put to words, but it obviously has a minor effect on your preferences, your opinions, that sorta stuff.

The girl. That's illegal where I live, and it never, ever happens, so it is way more noticeable. I just do not think of random people whom I don't know in a sexual way until I get to know them. A quirk of mine, perhaps.

But even if one oogles the people they meet, I don't think that counts as having an effect on their personality, it's just a reflection of their sex drive.

because theres no way a sex drive could under the blanket or personality right? that makes no sense.....oh wait...

your personality is a pretty damn broad thing. but i can see you're one of those ultra difficult to talk to people so im not going to both lol. i mean you take apart the hypothetical based on your location rather than actually looking at the hypothetical.. come on...

lame.

[DaeJi]

Siansonea II wrote...

So, does anyone want to address the alien question?

For all we know, turians mate by rubbing patches of skin together, and the male's spermatozoa enters the female's body through a bunch of pores in her skin. We don't know that they have human-like genitalia at all. Same goes for quarians, they might have all sorts of odd physical attributes under those suits. Who knows, maybe the female has a penis-like structure containing an ovum that penetrates the male, and his spermatozoa fertilize her egg that way. Reproductive sex doesn't necessarily equate to compatibility for human recreational sex. So why is it "perfectly understandable for Shepard to get with an opposite sex alien (with hostile dextro-chiral body chemistry), and yet the idea that ManShep might swing both ways is completely unbelievable?

Stop trying to ruin alien sex for me .

[Clonedzero]

Siansonea II wrote...

So, does anyone want to address the alien question?

For all we know, turians mate by rubbing patches of skin together, and the male's spermatozoa enters the female's body through a bunch of pores in her skin. We don't know that they have human-like genitalia at all. Same goes for quarians, they might have all sorts of odd physical attributes under those suits. Who knows, maybe the female has a penis-like structure containing an ovum that penetrates the male, and his spermatozoa fertilize her egg that way. Reproductive sex doesn't necessarily equate to compatibility for human recreational sex. So why is it "perfectly understandable for Shepard to get with an opposite sex alien (with hostile dextro-chiral body chemistry), and yet the idea that ManShep might swing both ways is completely unbelievable?

its not perfectly understandable. the idea that a turian and a human would be in a relationship is ridiculous.

i find the female shepard and garrus romance to be really really dumb too.

[SennenScale]

Clonedzero wrote...

your personality is a pretty damn broad thing. but i can see you're one of those ultra difficult to talk to people so im not going to both lol. i mean you take apart the hypothetical based on your location rather than actually looking at the hypothetical.. come on...

lame.

The point I was making was that it doesn't come into consideration for me. It just doesn't. That might make me odd, but it shows that allowing this stuff to have such an effect on you is by no means universal.

[Siibi]

Best tweet on Twitter, I couldn't be more happier

[AngelicMachinery]

Siansonea II wrote...

So, does anyone want to address the alien question?

For all we know, turians mate by rubbing patches of skin together, and the male's spermatozoa enters the female's body through a bunch of pores in her skin. We don't know that they have human-like genitalia at all. Same goes for quarians, they might have all sorts of odd physical attributes under those suits. Who knows, maybe the female has a penis-like structure containing an ovum that penetrates the male, and his spermatozoa fertilize her egg that way. Reproductive sex doesn't necessarily equate to compatibility for human recreational sex. So why is it "perfectly understandable for Shepard to get with an opposite sex alien (with hostile dextro-chiral body chemistry), and yet the idea that ManShep might swing both ways is completely unbelievable?

This post is kind of hot...

[bleetman]

Here's a thought. Imagine if Shepard was homosexual from the start, with no option to engage in a m/f relationship if you so desired. I suppose those who're against this change would be fine with that, yes? Because it's the late-stage change that's the issue, right? After all, it doesn't make you uncomfortable in the slightest. It's a character thing.

Yeh, right.

Modifié par bleetman, 16 mai 2011 - 06:33 .

[InvaderErl]

Ryzaki wrote...
Morrigan doesn't want to be a proper/wife/whatever so I don't see where you got that from. The most I've seen is her questioning why the Warden loves her because she cannot comprehend love.

There is a dialogue in which Morrigan questions the Warden on where he thinks the relationship is going and whether he could actually see them living a white picket fence style existence and when the Warden asks if that really is so bad she admits maybe not.

Ryzaki wrote...
(before being able to magically comprehend it enough to fall in love despite the fact that being raised by Flemeth she should be a borderline if not complete sociopath and even acts as such on several occasions). As for the femme fatale bit that is true. She is insecure and questions her relationship with the warden (and in fact that irked me because of I'm so sick of the damsal in distress realizing she loves the big strapping hero and ends up changing to accomdate him. Not to mention her characterization to me was all over the place one minute she's smart and manipulative and sociopathic the next she just wants to be loved.). If needing to fit into gender roles means the characterization ends up like hers I could really do without. 

Which power and gender conventions are you talking about? 

See I can't argue with subjective opinion. Saying I didn't like it doesn't give me anything to talk about. I respect your opinion but *shrug*

As for the power and gender conventions Morrigan sees herself as somebody who manipulates men with her body and cunning - she wants to be independent from all forms of oppression and gender oppression seems to play a role in this and Morrigan tends to use her role as femme fatale in that manner and yet her plan involves fulfilling a very traditional female role. However, by removing the male figure out of the familial picture she does in fact take by agency in the matter to a certain degree. I don't want to turn this into a Dragon Age debate by going further but there are plenty of elements like that.

Ryzaki wrote...


And what's outright said by the game?

I'm saying all the elements I've mentioned are actually there in the game. They are there in the dialogue and such as opposed to me saying that Morrigan has elements of Morgan le Fay from the King Arthur myth or something which would be reaching outside the source material so to speak. Essentially, I'm not looking at dynamics and concepts that aren't already in the story.

Ryzaki wrote...


No it couldn't. Zevran's works because it doesn't rely on gender sterotypes which to me was a breathe of fresh air. 

That's... what I said.

Ryzaki wrote...

Indeed it doesn't because I felt her characterization was ruined by her falling in love with a man to the extent that he let her in her plans despite leaving him alone not even a few months previously. 

I think Witch Hunt was an absolute abomination of the Morrigan story. The DA franchise has been on the wane since the end of Origins and this was just another nail in the coffin. There were ways to resolve that story. Them basically running into one another's arms was not it.

Ryzaki wrote...

And that requires her be a female? One can back away because of that with male Shepard as well. It would simply be in that case replacing one lover for another instead of one woman for anohter. Did he call Irikah siha? I can't remember. 

If I remember correctly Siha has to do with the goddess Areshu.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 16 mai 2011 - 06:41 .

[ipgd]

ReveurIngenu wrote...

I think what people who can't understand why Bioware is implementing same sex relationships need to understand is this: Shepard isn't turning gay.  Bioware is simply allowing those who would like to play him the way they want to to be able to do so.

Shepard could already be gay. ME3 just means he won't have to be celibate :innocent:


You know, I'm just going to skip the whole "maturity" deal and just say this is a good thing and anyone who disagrees with me is wrong and I don't like you.

[Darth Death]

ReveurIngenu wrote...

I think what people who can't understand why Bioware is implementing same sex relationships need to understand is this: Shepard isn't turning gay.  Bioware is simply allowing those who would like to play him the way they want to to be able to do so.

If your Shepard is straight, then all you have to do is continue playing him as such.  Your Shepard hasn't turned gay, Bioware is simply allowing others to play their Shepard as such!

How does that affect you?  Why do you feel that the POSSIBILITY of someone playing their Shepard gay makes your Shepard gay as well?  Your Shepard will stay as straight as you want him to stay if you play him that way! 

Seriously, there is absolutely nothing logical about the arguments from those complaining about Bioware making Shepard all of a sudden gay.  He's only gay if you choose to make him gay!

First off, your beginning sentence contradicts itself & the rest you've said is the same excessive, exasperating, misinterpret argument that has been going on for a while now. Making the male shep gay is random & flat out stupid (for he wasn't gay in the past two games). If the male shep was gay in ME then I wouldn't care, but to abruptly turn him gay despite him never showing any gay affections is retarded. BioWare should have plan this from the get-go as far as consistency is concerned. 

[Ryzaki]

Your quotes are horribly messed up.

[Phaelducan]

TheMarshal wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

For that matter, why is it offensive to the gay community for a strong male or female "blank-slate" type character to not be able to be gay in the first place? Why is it any different for a sexual orientation to be predetermined on the straight side then the bisexual side? 

If you really can't comprehend why someone of a minority would take offense to the idea that a strong 'blank-slate' type character cannot be of their minority, then...  I just...  I don't know...

You are missing the point. Say I'm Irish (just for the sake of argument), and not just Irish descent, but actually Irish. Should I be offended that Shep can't also be Irish?

Appearances notwithstanding, what if I want Shep to speak Gaelic, or have my accent? Or in any other way look/sound/act like I do. 

If I can't get that, why does that mean I have to be offended? Aren't we mature enough to accept that not everyone should be represented by our own minority?

Bioware already does a pretty good job of allowing for lots of diversity, but it doesn't have to be everything, for all of their games. The last AAA title allowed for a gay protagonist, and now the next one will as well... even though it's the third in a trilogy in which the first two did NOT allow for that option.

Stop playing the "anyone who disagrees with me is committing a hate crime" card. It's simply that ME3 shouldn't have to change what is in 2 and 1 just to appease a vocal minority. He wasn't gay (quantifiably, or he would have had options to romance same-sex), and now he can be. That's a change, which is irritating.

[Siansonea]

Wereparrot wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...




Well, it's not that simple, is it? And guess what, if asari ARE hermaphrodites or whatever you want to call them, GUESS WHAT THAT MEANS.  That's right, your precious MaleShep, who is banging Liara, is banging a HERMAPHRODITE. So do you STILL want to maintain that asari aren't female?

Yes. For me, at least, asari are neither male or female in human classification, so neither male or female Shepherd romancing Liara can be called gay with any degree of finality.

Well, you realize that means neither of them can be called STRAIGHT with any degree of finality too, right? After all, a heterosexual relationship is a relationship with someone of the OPPOSITE sex. If Liara isn't female (as you said, she CAN father a child), then MaleShepard is having sex with someone who could be another creature's FATHER. So you can either have MaleShepard is Straight, but FemShepard is Gay, or both of them are NEITHER Straight nor Gay when dealing with asari. In both these scenarios, you have a NON-HETEROSEXUAL SHEPARD.

Of course, but there's been TWO GAMES where Shepherd has been straight (Kelly notwitstanding, but I'm not sure she counts at this stage). And like I said again, Bioware had a good chance to introduce bi options in ME2 when Shepherd was 'dead': all that needed to be done was to say that Shepherd had lost some balance through the ordeal, but no. If we must have bi options, they missed the boat in my opinion. 

You say "Shepard has been straight for two games", but you don't provide any examples of this. Shepard has had the option to express a heterosexual lifestyle in two games, but in no way is Shepard forced to pursue heterosexual romance. Shepard can tell all the opposite-sex LIs to go away, how is that proving he's straight?

Why should I? Just because you don't like it doesn't Bioware didn't originally intend Shepherd to be straight, for whatever reason, and it's because of several unsatisfied fans that we've got the addition of bi options at this ludicrously late stage in Shepherd's story.

Well, "just because you don't like it" doesn't mean that BioWare isn't perfectly within their rights to include same-sex options for Shepard now. Why do you think BioWare should cater to you, but not to the rest of us? Why are you so freakin' special?


And, you didn't answer my question. Where is Shepard forced to declare that he is heterosexual? How is telling all the girls he's not interested proving he's heterosexual?

[SennenScale]

bleetman wrote...

Here's a thought. Imagine if Shepard was homosexual from the start, with no option to engage in a m/f relationship if you so desired. I suppose those who're against this change would be fine with that, yes? Because it's the late-stage change that's the issue, right? After all, it doesn't make you uncomfortable in the slightest. It's a character thing.

Yeh, right.

That people seem to think it has any more of an affect on the character than the difference between Paragon and Renegade or your childhood is pretty telling, in and of itself. Or so I think, anyhow.

[SavesTheDay]

Darth Death wrote...

ReveurIngenu wrote...

I think what people who can't understand why Bioware is implementing same sex relationships need to understand is this: Shepard isn't turning gay.  Bioware is simply allowing those who would like to play him the way they want to to be able to do so.

If your Shepard is straight, then all you have to do is continue playing him as such.  Your Shepard hasn't turned gay, Bioware is simply allowing others to play their Shepard as such!

How does that affect you?  Why do you feel that the POSSIBILITY of someone playing their Shepard gay makes your Shepard gay as well?  Your Shepard will stay as straight as you want him to stay if you play him that way! 

Seriously, there is absolutely nothing logical about the arguments from those complaining about Bioware making Shepard all of a sudden gay.  He's only gay if you choose to make him gay!

First off, your beginning sentence contradicts itself & the rest you've said is the same excessive, exasperating, misinterpret argument that has been going on for a while now. Making the male shep gay is random & flat out stupid (for he wasn't gay in the past two games). If the male shep was gay in ME then I wouldn't care, but to abruptly turn him gay despite him never showing any gay affections is retarded. BioWare should have plan this from the get-go as far as consistency is concerned. 

But the whole romance thing is optional. Your Shepard does not have to be gay if you don't want him to.

[DaeJi]

Clonedzero wrote...
i find the female shepard and garrus romance to be really really dumb too.

I thought that too, until I saw the romance. It was really well done and made me believe that yes, Garrus would actually fall for Shepard, species be damned. That same could hold true for Kaidan or Miranda as well, just replace "species" with "gender." Of course, that is only my opinion and this is a disclaimer I have to put so that people realize that that is only my opinion.

[Clonedzero]

SennenScale wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

your personality is a pretty damn broad thing. but i can see you're one of those ultra difficult to talk to people so im not going to both lol. i mean you take apart the hypothetical based on your location rather than actually looking at the hypothetical.. come on...

lame.

The point I was making was that it doesn't come into consideration for me. It just doesn't. That might make me odd, but it shows that allowing this stuff to have such an effect on you is by no means universal.

im not basing my opinion on that by anecdoatal personal evidence. im basing it on countless sociological and psychological studies lol

your sexual orientation and preference DOES have an effect on your personality. whether its a huge effect or not, or even if its conscious  or in your subconscious it absolutely does have an effect on your personality and behavior.