6696 réponses à ce sujet

[PMC65]

Phaelducan wrote...

You are missing the point. Say I'm Irish (just for the sake of argument), and not just Irish descent, but actually Irish. Should I be offended that Shep can't also be Irish?

Appearances notwithstanding, what if I want Shep to speak Gaelic, or have my accent? Or in any other way look/sound/act like I do. 

If I can't get that, why does that mean I have to be offended?

Actually, if you are Irish in Ireland ... hell, you've already won.

Beautiful people, great wit, good beer, Jameson whiskey, the Corrs/U2/Chieftains ... and a beautiful country!

If you're not Irish ... er, well. sorry

[ipgd]

Phaelducan wrote...

ipgd wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

So using your same argument, why can't you say your shep is gay, and create a backstory around that, without specific game resource being devoted to it?

I say I did exactly that for ME1 and 2, and you say to me:

That's ridiculous, no offense. Bioware wrote the game, you played the game. They wrote the game without gay options, thus he wasn't gay. Pointless discussion. Was Mario gay because he didn't show romantic interest in Peach? How about Link? Master Chief?

So, which is it? You know, you can just admit you're a bigot and be done with it. There's no need to dance around it and try to justify it.

Pot, meet kettle.

Please re-read and notice the part about designating resources. So you are saying that it's ok for me to have to do my own retro-fit for my minority and not have game resources devoted specifically to me... but that if I suggest the same for you I'm a bigot?

Hypocrite.

No, I'm saying you erect hilarious straw men that have little to no comparison whatsoever to the subject at hand. The resources involved in re-recording dialogue for a random Gaelic accent is not anywhere near the ballpark of what it takes to add a bisexual male love interest to the game.

[CajNatalie]

Mr.House wrote...
Seeing as most of my friends are gay/bi/lesbian they are common. Not all of us are fruity or make it well knowen.

Because your personal experience decides what actual fact is, thank you for your well-thought reply to my post.

Listen, I prefer women, I know a number of gay people, and I know where to go to find plenty of gay people... this does not automatically decide for the Universe that gays are common.

[FKA_Servo]

centauri2002 wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

Good points. I have a Muslim Shepard. It's not like I can make Shepard go to the captains cabin and have him pray 5 times a day. But I'm not complaining.....

But had the options for a Christian Shepard and a Buddhist Shepard to practice their faith been implemented in the game, I think you may have reconsidered that position.

This analogy rocks and bears repeating.

[Clonedzero]

Matchy Pointy wrote...

I'm all for it, it's abput time, and I havent seen a single character in ME come out with their established preference.

that is such a ridiculous way to look at things.

people dont announce their sexual orientation to people unless the specific situation calls for it. i never flat out announced i was straight to any of my past girlfriends, why? becuase it was unnecessary.

shouldnt require everything to be flat out announced and specified for us to draw logical conclusions.

[PMC65]

SennenScale wrote...


This thread goes fast, I missed any post like that.

You are not joking  

[Mr.House]

CajNatalie wrote...

Mr.House wrote...
Seeing as most of my friends are gay/bi/lesbian they are common. Not all of us are fruity or make it well knowen.

Because your personal experience decides what actual fact is, thank you for your well-thought reply to my post.

Listen, I prefer women, I know a number of gay people, and I know where to go to find plenty of gay people... this does not automatically decide for the Universe that gays are common.

While true, the point THAT no one is bi in ME(except Kelly) is also strange.

I don't count Liara and Mordin for many reasons.

Modifié par Mr.House, 16 mai 2011 - 07:22 .

[Ryzaki]

TommyServo wrote...

centauri2002 wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

Good points. I have a Muslim Shepard. It's not like I can make Shepard go to the captains cabin and have him pray 5 times a day. But I'm not complaining.....

But had the options for a Christian Shepard and a Buddhist Shepard to practice their faith been implemented in the game, I think you may have reconsidered that position.

This analogy rocks and bears repeating.

It does. 

And yes gay/bisexuals are uncommon compared to straight people. But so are superbiotics, genetically enchanced perfect women, biotics in general, cofounders of mercenary gangs, top thieves in the galaxy, Geth and so on. 

Nothing about Shepard's crew is common. 

And the fact that Shepard met all those people and none expressed s/s attractive save Asari is...strange. It's pretty uncommon in of itself. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 16 mai 2011 - 07:22 .

[Matchy Pointy]

Clonedzero wrote...

Matchy Pointy wrote...

I'm all for it, it's abput time, and I havent seen a single character in ME come out with their established preference.

that is such a ridiculous way to look at things.

people dont announce their sexual orientation to people unless the specific situation calls for it. i never flat out announced i was straight to any of my past girlfriends, why? becuase it was unnecessary.

shouldnt require everything to be flat out announced and specified for us to draw logical conclusions.

I would say that is as ridicilous way to look at it, people say they have establihsed preferences, when there is no proof about it, if you even believe in those preferences to begin with, but I'mn ot here to get drawn into a discussion about this, I'm just here to lendmy support for allowing same sex romances.

[Wereparrot]

Siansonea II wrote...

*snipped quote pyramids*

Wereparrot wrote...
But you can't call Shepherd gay either, and that's the point. It is something beyond the realms of reality, and for this you surely must make allowances.

So I have to make allowances for the fact that Shepard MIGHT NOT BE gay, but you don't have to make allowances that Shepard MIGHT BE gay? How does that work exactly? 


As far as I know, ME3 will definitely allow for a non-gay Shepard, but don't quote me on that, the game IS still in development.

I didin't say Shepherd might not be gay, I've been saying that he isn't. Or wasn't. I think I've read somewhere that the lines for gay Shepherd were recorded but never used due to whatever reason, be it time constraints or whatever; but due to the fact that they weren't used, Shepherd was never gay, and giving him the bi option now is such a change of face and so late it's laughable.

[Clonedzero]

PMC65 wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

You are missing the point. Say I'm Irish (just for the sake of argument), and not just Irish descent, but actually Irish. Should I be offended that Shep can't also be Irish?

Appearances notwithstanding, what if I want Shep to speak Gaelic, or have my accent? Or in any other way look/sound/act like I do. 

If I can't get that, why does that mean I have to be offended?

Actually, if you are Irish in Ireland ... hell, you've already won.

Beautiful people, great wit, good beer, Jameson whiskey, the Corrs/U2/Chieftains ... and a beautiful country!

If you're not Irish ... er, well. sorry

thats a lie!

irish beer is flat and bland dont mislead people!

[SennenScale]

Clonedzero wrote...

SennenScale wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

SennenScale wrote...
Let's say I were to accept such an idea. I do not, but let's pretend for a moment. There is nothing in anything Shepard does that makes him straight or gay. Nor is this an area which we can safely judge such.

where did i suggest that?

in fact a couple pages back i wrote a reason explaining why shepard could in fact be gay and tis entirely up to the person controlling shepard to roleplay the part.

i was just saying that your sexual orientation (or even lack there of) indeed does have an effect on your personality. noticable? maybe not.

This thread goes fast, I missed any post like that.

Let's go back to what I originally was saying though. I was just saying a lot of straight people have this tendency to think gayness or bisexuality has this huge, gigantic, dramatic effect on who you are, and I find that to be a silly idea. Especially in light of my own experiences, which I tend to trust more than studies, seeing as how for every study that says one thing, there is a mutually exclusive and contradictory one out there.

wait are you stereotyping straight people as bigots that stereotype gay people who in turn stereotype straight people as bigots that....

WHAT? lol.

i mean right now this thread has sorta devolved into both sides being really bigoted and ignorant.

I'm not stereotyping every straight person. Just saying there exists quite a few straight people that think that gay people are fundamentally different from them. it's a persistent idea I see quite frequently and it saddens me. It's no more bigoted than saying there are a lot of whites who are racist toward black people. Doesn't imply that it is true of every white person or tell anything about the actual amount of racists. Doesn't say that others can't be racist as well.

Also, remember that "alot" doesn't equal a specific percentage. 6 million people is a number that is considered "alot", but that's tiny compared to 7 or so billion who live on earth,

[ipgd]

Clonedzero wrote...

that is such a ridiculous way to look at things.

people dont announce their sexual orientation to people unless the specific situation calls for it. i never flat out announced i was straight to any of my past girlfriends, why? becuase it was unnecessary.

shouldnt require everything to be flat out announced and specified for us to draw logical conclusions.

Just because you can reasonably assume someone to be straight doesn't mean that all people who can reasonably be assumed to be straight are straight. There are bisexual people who are closeted, "uninitiated", or simply just don't talk about their sexual orientation while they are in heterosexual relationships for any number of reasons.

[Centauri2002]

Phaelducan wrote...

It's not wrong in concept, it just should have been included since the first game. If it was an option since ME1 to be gay and pursue s/s romances, this would be a non-issue. What is unfortunate is that it wasn't included in 1 OR 2, and now to put it in ME3 is forced, unrealistic, and is going to require resources allocated that shouldn't be.

Fair enough if you see it that way. But I don't see it as unrealistic to implement something that should have been in it from the start. Yes, it's unrealistic to make straight Sheps gay. But they're not doing that. They're merely adding in an option. One which won't even effect your game. 

I play my Shepard as a lesbian, and yet I have no complaint against those wishing to play as MaleSheps who are straight. They do not suit my vision of Shepard in the slightest but they don't concern me and they do not take away from my enjoyment of the game.

Will you enjoy the game any less with these new options in it? Particularly when you won't even see them.

[Siansonea]

Wereparrot wrote...

ipgd wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

So Shepherd could be racist or otherwise prejudiced because he's not forced to declare that he's not?

Yes. Hell, Shepard can be overtly racist/xenophobic in the text of the game already.

Fine. I hope, considering this, that Shepherd can be openly homophobic towards those of the same gender who come on to him/her.


That's not the case in DAII, and it won't be the case in ME3.

You hope your character can be homophobic in ME3. I don't even know what to do with this. This is really disgusting to me, but then so was working for Cerberus. At least your Homophobe Shepard idea would be optional, I guess. 

Well, one thing about it, Straight Shepard will be able to be straighter than ever before. After all, he will be able to pursue women even though there are men in the game he could pursue if he wanted to. Choosing a woman is even more meaningful when you're also not choosing a man.

[Mr.House]

Wereparrot wrote...
I didin't say Shepherd might not be gay, I've been saying that he isn't. Or wasn't. I think I've read somewhere that the lines for gay Shepherd were recorded but never used due to whatever reason, be it time constraints or whatever; but due to the fact that they weren't used, Shepherd was never gay, and giving him the bi option now is such a change of face and so late it's laughable.

A maleshep never flirted with any female in the game and is waiting for a male. There's a gay Shepard.

[CommanderShawn]

they better just add gay or bi character cause they cant just make characters that was there since me1 gay out the blue

[Phaelducan]

TheMarshal wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

So using your same argument, why can't you say your shep is gay, and create a backstory around that, without specific game resource being devoted to it?

Nice touch minimizing someone else's minority struggles while you play up yours, btw. This always ends up being the same old tired argument, that somehow being one minority entitled you to better representation over other minorities.

Why no Native American L.I.? How about Basque, Asian, or maybe Albino or pygmy?

You aren't the only ones under-represented in video games, incidently.

If you want to boil it down to a matter of comparative resources needed for support, then same-sex romances involve relatively little.  Keeping Meer and Hale in the studio for another few hours, paying the writers a little longer to modify the dialogue (if/when necessary), maybe even a few new mo-cap animations, and you're done.  Compare that to paying a different VA to record every single line in the game with an Irish brogue (two voice actors, don't wanna leave out FemShep!).

For the record I'm not a minority.  I'm a straight, white male.  I'm like the anti-minority.  There is practically no place in the world or history where I could go and not be treated with respect.  The same cannot be said for women, gays, people of color, and yeah, the Irish.  I get that I lead a charmed life through no fault of my own, and rather than come up with weak-ass arguments to disallow people from enjoying a game the way that they want in a manner which has little to no effect on me whatsoever, I choose to 'Fight for the Love'™.

As opposed to weak-ass arguments that suggest that somehow straight protagonists oppress and hinder the entertainment of homosexual players?

Should Moby Dick be rewritten so that Ishmael and Ahab have sexual tension? How about adding some steamy bathhouse scenes for A Tale of Two Cities? ME 1 and 2 did not suffer in the slightest for having things play out as they did. Now it needs to be changed... and for what? To appease one group.

It's insulting (not just to me) to suggest that somehow fiction/fantasy of any medium is somehow lessened because it has a hero with a defined sexual preference. Fight for the love all you want, but stop wishing for retconning established parameters to make everyone else conform.

[Inquisitor Recon]

Mr.House wrote...
You also can't assume they are straight either.<_<

Why not? Chances are that they are indeed straight. It's how we operate in the apparently stone age country I live in.

[CajNatalie]

Ryzaki wrote...

It does. 

And yes gay/bisexuals are uncommon compared to straight people. But so are superbiotics, genetically enchanced perfect women, biotics in general, cofounders of mercenary gangs, top thieves in the galaxy, Geth and so on. 

Nothing about Shepard's crew is common. 

And the fact that Shepard met all those people and none expressed s/s attractive save Asari is...strange. It's pretty uncommon in of itself. 

There's only one genetic superwoman... there's only one merc gang cofounder, and one top thief, and one network-isolated super Geth... and Jack is the only superbiotic human (Asari biotics are common) you encounter...

This does not counter what I've said that there's no issue with there being one game out of three with gay squadmates interested in Shepard. It kind of stands beside it.


My argument about it making sense like this is to shoot down any of those people trying to strawman that you couldn't openly declare your Shep as gay in ME1 or 2 (and apparently according to these people, this absence of evidence means evidence of absence of Shep homosexuality)... because of course not, the options weren't there due to no gay compatible squadmates.
Kelly notwithstanding.

Modifié par CajNatalie, 16 mai 2011 - 07:27 .

[SennenScale]

Clonedzero wrote...

that is such a ridiculous way to look at things.

people dont announce their sexual orientation to people unless the specific situation calls for it. i never flat out announced i was straight to any of my past girlfriends, why? becuase it was unnecessary.

shouldnt require everything to be flat out announced and specified for us to draw logical conclusions.

Then just remember that your conclusions are not set in stone. They can be right. They can be wrong. They could even be orange to a certain segment of the population.

[Siansonea]

ReconTeam wrote...

Matchy Pointy wrote...
I'm all for it, it's abput time, and I havent seen a single character in ME come out with their established preference.

So would all of these characters have to be wearing badges saying "I'm straight" for that to be obvious enough? Because when somebody only shows an interest in women they are probably straight, you don't presume they are bisexual.

So Shepard shouldn't have same-sex options because he's "probably straight"?

He doesn't have to wear a badge that says "I'm Straight!", but he does have to wear a badge that says "I'm Gay!" or "I'm Bisexual!" in order for same-sex options to be believable at this point? Because I have some Male Shepards who NEVER showed any interest in women, you know. So why should I assume they're straight?

[Mr.House]

ReconTeam wrote...

Mr.House wrote...
You also can't assume they are straight either.<_<

Why not? Chances are that they are indeed straight. It's how we operate in the apparently stone age country I live in.

So then you can't get mad if these people turn out to be bi. You assumed and you where wrong.

[Clonedzero]

ipgd wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

that is such a ridiculous way to look at things.

people dont announce their sexual orientation to people unless the specific situation calls for it. i never flat out announced i was straight to any of my past girlfriends, why? becuase it was unnecessary.

shouldnt require everything to be flat out announced and specified for us to draw logical conclusions.

Just because you can reasonably assume someone to be straight doesn't mean that all people who can reasonably be assumed to be straight are straight. There are bisexual people who are closeted, "uninitiated", or simply just don't talk about their sexual orientation while they are in heterosexual relationships for any number of reasons.

right but 9 times out of 10 or probably more than that, the reasonably assumed to be straight person are straight. obviously thats not always the case, especially in real life.

but this is a game, the game conveys a story. for a character to be a closeted bisexual then for well, characterization and story purposes they should at least hint or reference at it. you know, so it doesnt feel like forced fanservice?

not talking about shepard though, thats a unique case. talking about all the established characters

[Mr.House]

CommanderShawn wrote...

they better just add gay or bi character cause they cant just make characters that was there since me1 gay out the blue

It's not making them bi out of the blue since it was never comfirmed.