6696 réponses à ce sujet

[Siansonea]

Wereparrot wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

*snipped quote pyramids*

Wereparrot wrote...
But you can't call Shepherd gay either, and that's the point. It is something beyond the realms of reality, and for this you surely must make allowances.

So I have to make allowances for the fact that Shepard MIGHT NOT BE gay, but you don't have to make allowances that Shepard MIGHT BE gay? How does that work exactly? 


As far as I know, ME3 will definitely allow for a non-gay Shepard, but don't quote me on that, the game IS still in development.

I didin't say Shepherd might not be gay, I've been saying that he isn't. Or wasn't. I think I've read somewhere that the lines for gay Shepherd were recorded but never used due to whatever reason, be it time constraints or whatever; but due to the fact that they weren't used, Shepherd was never gay, and giving him the bi option now is such a change of face and so late it's laughable.

Where does Male Shepard say he isn't gay? Sure, some male Shepards can romance women and female aliens, but that's only in some playthroughs. Or have you not twigged to the fact that Shepard is a customizable character? Are you just playing the "quick start male"? 

[Matchy Pointy]

Does people actually try to give Shepard a canon sexuality? Shepard is as you play him/her, you make your character.

[Centauri2002]

CajNatalie wrote...

My argument about it making sense like this is to shoot down any of those people trying to strawman that you couldn't openly declare your Shep as gay in ME1 or 2 (and apparently according to these people, this absence of evidence means evidence of absence of Shep homosexuality)... because of course not, the options weren't there due to no gay compatible squadmates.
Kelly notwithstanding.

Why does Kelly not count? 

And how about Liara? Or Samara? Or Morinth? They're asari, yes, but are you under the impression a straight woman would be attracted to them? I would find that rather unlikely.

[PMC65]

Clonedzero wrote...

PMC65 wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

You are missing the point. Say I'm Irish (just for the sake of argument), and not just Irish descent, but actually Irish. Should I be offended that Shep can't also be Irish?

Appearances notwithstanding, what if I want Shep to speak Gaelic, or have my accent? Or in any other way look/sound/act like I do. 

If I can't get that, why does that mean I have to be offended?

Actually, if you are Irish in Ireland ... hell, you've already won.

Beautiful people, great wit, good beer, Jameson whiskey, the Corrs/U2/Chieftains ... and a beautiful country!

If you're not Irish ... er, well. sorry

thats a lie!

irish beer is flat and bland dont mislead people!

Feeling lots of hate here ...

[Siansonea]

ReconTeam wrote...

Mr.House wrote...
You also can't assume they are straight either.<_<

Why not? Chances are that they are indeed straight. It's how we operate in the apparently stone age country I live in.

"Probably straight" and "chances are likely" are hardly compelling reasons to exclude an option that many people would like to have, that nobody will HAVE to pursue.

[Clonedzero]

Mr.House wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

Mr.House wrote...
You also can't assume they are straight either.<_<

Why not? Chances are that they are indeed straight. It's how we operate in the apparently stone age country I live in.

So then you can't get mad if these people turn out to be bi. You assumed and you where wrong.

if a character randomly one day decides to be bi with no development grow, hints, indication of anykind i'd call that bad writing.

if shepard one day suddenly grew wings and horns and rode a mortorcycle through space i'd call that bad writing as well.

all i want is for it to actually seem natural and not forced fanservice. but apparently that makes me a bigot according to alot of you.

[Ryzaki]

CajNatalie wrote...
There's only one genetic superwoman... there's only one merc gang cofounder, and one top thief, and one network-isolated super Geth... and Jack is the only superbiotic human (Asari biotics are common) you encounter...

This does not counter what I've said that there's no issue with there being one game out of three with gay squadmates interested in Shepard. It kind of stands beside it.

True it kind of does. My issue is that Shepard "conviently" bumps into uncommom people all the damn time. A Bi LI in every game ouldn't have been stretching believablility. 

My argument about it making sense like this is to shoot down any of those people trying to strawman that you couldn't openly declare your Shep as gay in ME1 or 2 (and apparently according to these people, this absence of evidence means evidence of absence of Shep homosexuality)... because of course not, the options weren't there.
Kelly notwithstanding.

 

My issue is you can't hit on them to begin with. That doesn't make Kaidan anymore straight than it does Shepard to me. Now if Kaidan had rejected male Shepard then I'd see him as straight (and Shepard would be gay but a lonely gay). As it is now they're in some unconfirmed limbo. Unless Shepard can magically read minds now and knew Kaidan wasn't gay/bisexual and it was a waste of time to hit on him. 

Only reason I see my Shepard as gay is because he's my character that I crafted. It has nothing to do with options. I would like to be able to express his homosexuality. But it's not necessary for him to be homosexual. I don't understand why anyone thinks it is. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 16 mai 2011 - 07:32 .

[Phaelducan]

ipgd wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

ipgd wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

So using your same argument, why can't you say your shep is gay, and create a backstory around that, without specific game resource being devoted to it?

I say I did exactly that for ME1 and 2, and you say to me:

That's ridiculous, no offense. Bioware wrote the game, you played the game. They wrote the game without gay options, thus he wasn't gay. Pointless discussion. Was Mario gay because he didn't show romantic interest in Peach? How about Link? Master Chief?

So, which is it? You know, you can just admit you're a bigot and be done with it. There's no need to dance around it and try to justify it.

Pot, meet kettle.

Please re-read and notice the part about designating resources. So you are saying that it's ok for me to have to do my own retro-fit for my minority and not have game resources devoted specifically to me... but that if I suggest the same for you I'm a bigot?

Hypocrite.

No, I'm saying you erect hilarious straw men that have little to no comparison whatsoever to the subject at hand. The resources involved in re-recording dialogue for a random Gaelic accent is not anywhere near the ballpark of what it takes to add a bisexual male love interest to the game.

Whether it's 10 grand or 15 grand of added cost is irrelevant, and also not a straw man. If you want to cite a logical fallacy, do so correctly. I'm not using a different issue to deflect from the object of debate, I'm using the same issue. Unless you propose, as I suspect, that your minority actually IS the only minority of import in the world, in which case I stand by my previous statement.

Hypocrite.

If I happen to be proud of my heritage, language, culture contributions, suffering at the hands of oppressors (be it gay, Irish, native american, or whatever) then that is fine. What is NOT ok, is for me to demand that everyone else who isn't to be subjected to my own narrow view of the world so that my own entertainment is maximized.

Maybe the soundtrack for ME3 should be completely replaced with music from the Pogues, that way my minority would be properly represented and I would feel that I'm not being ignored/repressed by Bioware.

[Siansonea]

Clonedzero wrote...

Matchy Pointy wrote...

I'm all for it, it's abput time, and I havent seen a single character in ME come out with their established preference.

that is such a ridiculous way to look at things.

people dont announce their sexual orientation to people unless the specific situation calls for it. i never flat out announced i was straight to any of my past girlfriends, why? becuase it was unnecessary.

shouldnt require everything to be flat out announced and specified for us to draw logical conclusions.

Well, what logical conclusion can you draw about a bisexual person if you've only witnessed them pursue one relationship?

[Zulmoka531]

I think Udina had it right when he said "Anderson? Does political ****storm mean anything to you?"

As this is what this entire thing is turning into.

[Mr.House]

Siansonea II wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

Matchy Pointy wrote...

I'm all for it, it's abput time, and I havent seen a single character in ME come out with their established preference.

that is such a ridiculous way to look at things.

people dont announce their sexual orientation to people unless the specific situation calls for it. i never flat out announced i was straight to any of my past girlfriends, why? becuase it was unnecessary.

shouldnt require everything to be flat out announced and specified for us to draw logical conclusions.

Well, what logical conclusion can you draw about a bisexual person if you've only witnessed them pursue one relationship?

Cleary if a man has sex with a woman that must bmean they are straight!

Ahhh ignorence is bliss.

[bleetman]

Phaelducan wrote...

What is unfortunate is that it wasn't included in 1 OR 2, and now to put it in ME3 is forced, unrealistic, and is going to require resources allocated that shouldn't be.

It's not forced, and I grow weary of repeating that. If your Shepard is straight to you, it'll continue being that. If your Shepard was bi/******-sexual from the point of view of the player - which several people have already said was the case for them - they'll have the option to go somewhere with it.

I'm assuming you mean 'forced' not in the sense of the player being made to engage in s/s romances, more in a 'round peg, square hole' kind of sense of trying to fit it into a backstory that doesn't make sense with it. The point is, it makes sense to the people who wanted it, because chances are they've already written out their characters that way.

[PMC65]

SennenScale wrote...

I'm not stereotyping every straight person. Just saying there exists quite a few straight people that think that gay people are fundamentally different from them. it's a persistent idea I see quite frequently and it saddens me. It's no more bigoted than saying there are a lot of whites who are racist toward black people. Doesn't imply that it is true of every white person or tell anything about the actual amount of racists. Doesn't say that others can't be racist as well.

Also, remember that "alot" doesn't equal a specific percentage. 6 million people is a number that is considered "alot", but that's tiny compared to 7 or so billion who live on earth,

I also know a lot of gay people who don't like "breeders", gay men who hate all women, gay women who hate all men, etc .... But I don't think this is what the thread is about.

Can't we just listen to each other's concern without calling each other names? "Leave Britney alone!"

[Wereparrot]

Siansonea II wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

ipgd wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

So Shepherd could be racist or otherwise prejudiced because he's not forced to declare that he's not?

Yes. Hell, Shepard can be overtly racist/xenophobic in the text of the game already.

Fine. I hope, considering this, that Shepherd can be openly homophobic towards those of the same gender who come on to him/her.


That's not the case in DAII, and it won't be the case in ME3.

You hope your character can be homophobic in ME3. I don't even know what to do with this. This is really disgusting to me, but then so was working for Cerberus. At least your Homophobe Shepard idea would be optional, I guess. 

Well, one thing about it, Straight Shepard will be able to be straighter than ever before. After all, he will be able to pursue women even though there are men in the game he could pursue if he wanted to. Choosing a woman is even more meaningful when you're also not choosing a man.

I really hoped I wouldn't need to point out that I was being sarcastic.

[TheMarshal]

Phaelducan wrote...

As opposed to weak-ass arguments that suggest that somehow straight protagonists oppress and hinder the entertainment of homosexual players?

Should Moby Dick be rewritten so that Ishmael and Ahab have sexual tension? How about adding some steamy bathhouse scenes for A Tale of Two Cities? ME 1 and 2 did not suffer in the slightest for having things play out as they did. Now it needs to be changed... and for what? To appease one group.

It's insulting (not just to me) to suggest that somehow fiction/fantasy of any medium is somehow lessened because it has a hero with a defined sexual preference. Fight for the love all you want, but stop wishing for retconning established parameters to make everyone else conform.

My argument is that allowing a player to create their character almost top-to-bottom but disallowing them from choosing an aspect of their personality which is both important to the story and completely optional is just mean-spirited.

I'm going to ignore the parts about Moby Dick and A Tale of Two Cities because I don't think you're stupid enough to actually compare static works of literature to a video game where the first thing you do is create the protagonist.  If the opening line of Moby Dick was "Please choose Captain Ahab's first name" THEN you might be onto something.  But even then, your story and my story would not necessarily converge.

Again, what is it about the completely optional romance dialogue that you have a problem with?  DId you explore every romance option with ever available LI?  Or were there some who you simply said "No thank you" to and moved on?  Or, hell, did you maybe not even talk to some of them?  What's the problem with adding a few more to "appease" some people?

[upsettingshorts]

Phaelducan wrote...

Hypocrite.

[Clonedzero]

bleetman wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

What is unfortunate is that it wasn't included in 1 OR 2, and now to put it in ME3 is forced, unrealistic, and is going to require resources allocated that shouldn't be.

It's not forced, and I grow weary of repeating that. If your Shepard is straight to you, it'll continue being that. If your Shepard was bi/******-sexual from the point of view of the player - which several people have already said was the case for them - they'll have the option to go somewhere with it.

I'm assuming you mean 'forced' not in the sense of the player being made to engage in s/s romances, more in a 'round peg, square hole' kind of sense of trying to fit it into a backstory that doesn't make sense with it. The point is, it makes sense to the people who wanted it, because chances are they've already written out their characters that way.

most people arent concerned about shepard being gay/bi. they're concerned about established squadmates and characters being turned bi simply so gay/bi shepard has someone to shack up with.

thats whats going to come accross as forced and unrealistic.

[Mr.House]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

Hypocrite.

I love you.

[Mr.House]

Clonedzero wrote...

bleetman wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

What is unfortunate is that it wasn't included in 1 OR 2, and now to put it in ME3 is forced, unrealistic, and is going to require resources allocated that shouldn't be.

It's not forced, and I grow weary of repeating that. If your Shepard is straight to you, it'll continue being that. If your Shepard was bi/******-sexual from the point of view of the player - which several people have already said was the case for them - they'll have the option to go somewhere with it.

I'm assuming you mean 'forced' not in the sense of the player being made to engage in s/s romances, more in a 'round peg, square hole' kind of sense of trying to fit it into a backstory that doesn't make sense with it. The point is, it makes sense to the people who wanted it, because chances are they've already written out their characters that way.

most people arent concerned about shepard being gay/bi. they're concerned about established squadmates and characters being turned bi simply so gay/bi shepard has someone to shack up with.

thats whats going to come accross as forced and unrealistic.

That's your fault for assuming, so no it's not unrealistic. Better luck next time..

[AdmiralCheez]

Restating this tweet...

CaseyDHudson (Casey Hudson):

Some game sites saying "previously straight chars now available for both m&f chars" not necessarily true. Will have some new LI's in #ME3

Everybody chill!

[Mr.House]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Restating this tweet...

CaseyDHudson (Casey Hudson):

Some game sites saying "previously straight chars now available for both m&f chars" not necessarily true. Will have some new LI's in #ME3

Everybody chill!

Yes let's introduce a new LI which will have little depth compared to the others, that's ****** poor.

[TheMarshal]

Clonedzero wrote...

most people arent concerned about shepard being gay/bi. they're concerned about established squadmates and characters being turned bi simply so gay/bi shepard has someone to shack up with.

thats whats going to come accross as forced and unrealistic.

I would imagine that the people who would pursue the gay/bi LI's wouldn't really think that they're forced and unrealistic.  So far it's only the people who won't who seem to give a damn.

[Wereparrot]

Siansonea II wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

*snipped quote pyramids*

Wereparrot wrote...
But you can't call Shepherd gay either, and that's the point. It is something beyond the realms of reality, and for this you surely must make allowances.

So I have to make allowances for the fact that Shepard MIGHT NOT BE gay, but you don't have to make allowances that Shepard MIGHT BE gay? How does that work exactly? 


As far as I know, ME3 will definitely allow for a non-gay Shepard, but don't quote me on that, the game IS still in development.

I didin't say Shepherd might not be gay, I've been saying that he isn't. Or wasn't. I think I've read somewhere that the lines for gay Shepherd were recorded but never used due to whatever reason, be it time constraints or whatever; but due to the fact that they weren't used, Shepherd was never gay, and giving him the bi option now is such a change of face and so late it's laughable.

Where does Male Shepard say he isn't gay? Sure, some male Shepards can romance women and female aliens, but that's only in some playthroughs. Or have you not twigged to the fact that Shepard is a customizable character? Are you just playing the "quick start male"? 

No, I just recognise what went on behind the scenes at Bioware, which you, apparently, are content to ignore. It doesn't matter what you play as; the point is that Shepherd was not originally what you want him/her to be.

[SennenScale]

PMC65 wrote...

I also know a lot of gay people who don't like "breeders", gay men who hate all women, gay women who hate all men, etc .... But I don't think this is what the thread is about.

Can't we just listen to each other's concern without calling each other names? "Leave Britney alone!"

This is what I posted originally, for the record. Never intended name calling.

SennenScale wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Interesting
thing that I've noticed: by and large, the people who keep saying that
sexuality is a vital part of one's personality are straight. Far more of
those who disagree are not. Why might this be?

A lot of
straight people think gay people are fundamentally different from
them...or rather, that BEING GAY makes somebody fundamentally different
from a straight person.
A lot of straight people also think bisexual = sleep with everything.
Me, 
I never saw being attracted to the opposite sex as being a defining
aspect of my personality. It'a a drop in the bucket of who I am. Being a
pale, freckled ginger affects me more than being straight!  [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie]

[AngelicMachinery]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Phaelducan wrote...

Hypocrite.

I  your avatar.