6696 réponses à ce sujet

[jlb524]

Clonedzero wrote...

also, whats the consensus, do female human and an asari count as a s/s relationship?
asari all seem like girls to me.

I say, 'yes'. 

I wonder if we'll see less of this argument:  Liara/FemShep is not an f/f romance

....now that m/m romances have been confirmed for ME3?

[Eradyn]

Conversely, can people accept if a character ultimately is heterosexual? You can't "convert" someone. If one's sexual orientation is something you are born with, that is not something where "a character (or person) can change." You either are or you aren't. And to try to get someone who is hetero to convert is just as wrong as trying to convert someone who is homosexual or bisexual into being heterosexual.

While I don't want to see already established LIs have their sexual orientation changed (be they Kelly, Samara, Liara, Thane, Miranda, Garrus, Kaidan, and so forth), I do strongly support there being new LI options that are designed from the ground up for homosexual or bisexual relationships.

[TheBlackBaron]

jlb524 wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

also, whats the consensus, do female human and an asari count as a s/s relationship?
asari all seem like girls to me.

I say, 'yes'. 

I wonder if we'll see less of this argument:  Liara/FemShep is not an f/f romance

....now that m/m romances have been confirmed for ME3?

When did people ever argue that it wasn't? 

I mean, sure, technically it isn't, but for all intents and purposes it is. I mean, hell, if I were of the crowd that was virulently opposed to the FFTL camp on principle, I'd say that's a point in favor of my argument. "The option is already there, use it" and so forth. 

[Tantum Dic Verbo]

Subject Alpha wrote...

 As long as Joker's a bi LI, there will be world peace, an end to global starvation and suffering...
Okay, maybe nothing that dramatic, but certainly a lot of very happy fans. 

So, super enhanced cyber-Shep hammering away at the guy with Vrolek's Syndrome?  And Tali thought she had hurdles to clear to be with Shepard.

[SilentNukee]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

also, whats the consensus, do female human and an asari count as a s/s relationship?
asari all seem like girls to me.

I say, 'yes'. 

I wonder if we'll see less of this argument:  Liara/FemShep is not an f/f romance

....now that m/m romances have been confirmed for ME3?

When did people ever argue that it wasn't? 

I mean, sure, technically it isn't, but for all intents and purposes it is. I mean, hell, if I were of the crowd that was virulently opposed to the FFTL camp on principle, I'd say that's a point in favor of my argument. "The option is already there, use it" and so forth. 

BioWare still likes to claim it isn't a s/s romance. (If you read various websites, etc.) But, we all know the truth.

[upsettingshorts]

Technically it is F/F. It just isn't "gay" for Liara.

But Liara has human female secondary sex characteristics and is female, so for female Shepard it's gay.

I haven't heard too many argue that it isn't, though.

[Siansonea]

Mudzr wrote...

*Edit* I wrote this as a reply to alot of backlash against the recent confirmation, and as a reply to what I saw on the Kotaku article, but it seems that it has died done quite a bit so apologies if this post seems out of place.

All this opposition worries me.
The fact is, CHARACTERS CHANGE. It is going to happen. Otherwise we would get board of them. Garrus and Tali both changed from ME1 to ME2. So did Ashley. People were upset at the time, now it seems like they never were with the way fans are acting that bioware never has any inconstinacies or changes game to game.

The fact is, times are changing, yes you may not believe that hypothetically four bisexuals could be travelling with you at one time or that people that previously seemed to be straight (apparently the aliens too *eyes roll* altough as I said before, they're not hetrosexual, they are most probably pansexual), but in a world where biotics have become the new magic, and interspecies relationship seems common, would it be too hard to stretch your imagination, suspend your disbelief, etc. so that the universe we all know and love can be just a little bit more inclusive?
Tali and Garrus were able to show interest in the second game where they had not in the first, and with them being the most popular romances so far, i'm going to guess that Bioware pulled it off. I'm willing to think that Bioware can do it again, have a little faith.

(*Edit* Ok this part of the post is a bit more serious and negative in tone than the first part, so feel free to skip it if you want.)

And seriously, I don't want to say it, but the naivity and homophobia of some of these posters is unbelievable, i'm starting to believe that some of these posters would openly refuse that be friends with someone who turned out to be ******/ bisexual, yes even if they are alien and apparently expeicially if they are male. And then we have all the specualtion on who could be bi or not, which seems to be based on nothing but stereotypes (for example Kaiden often gets mentioned for his stereotypical "feminine" traits).
I guess I would be niaive to expect something like this to just happen however without opposition. hmmm...

Bottom line, Bioware wrote the characters, they know them better than we do. And yes they change their made, actually writers always do, and we often see it is character development. I see no one minded when Garrus suddenly had a sister he had never mentioned before. So really, the addition of s/s romances does not have to effect anyone but those who are interested in it, so please try and think what others are gaining before complaining about what you are "losing", because reality is, before the game is released, no one knows how this will turn out.

So best just have faith.

Like.

[sevalaricgirl]

Mudzr wrote...
for example Kaiden often gets mentioned for his stereotypical "feminine" traits).
I guess I would be niaive to expect something like this to just happen however without opposition. hmmm...

Sensitivity is not a female trait.  He is portraying what all men should strive to be.

Also, I am an author.  I never change my characters mid way through a series and this is huge, not a minor detail for many gamers.  Yes there are several bi/gay gamers, but there are a lot more straight gamers.  Now another point, it isn't homophobia or nor does it have anything to do with someone's lack of confidence in their sexuality.  Believe it or not, there are people out there who think it's okay to be bi/gay but just don't want to see it in our favorite characters from a series that we were emotionally invested in.  You spend 100s of hours playing a game, you get emotionally invested in it.  If people didn't get emotionally invested in a novel or a game, then as a writer we should be concerned.  It's not wrong to want those who were straight to stay straight in ME3.

Modifié par sevalaricgirl, 16 mai 2011 - 11:29 .

[Eradyn]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

also, whats the consensus, do female human and an asari count as a s/s relationship?
asari all seem like girls to me.

I say, 'yes'. 

I wonder if we'll see less of this argument:  Liara/FemShep is not an f/f romance

....now that m/m romances have been confirmed for ME3?

When did people ever argue that it wasn't? 

I mean, sure, technically it isn't, but for all intents and purposes it is. I mean, hell, if I were of the crowd that was virulently opposed to the FFTL camp on principle, I'd say that's a point in favor of my argument. "The option is already there, use it" and so forth. 

You must have missed all of BW's backtracking on asari being female when ME2 rolled around. And, of course, you have parts of the community that accept and argue in favor of said backtracking, so that's where you get the "debate" from.  I do think most people saw through it for what it was.

[jlb524]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

When did people ever argue that it wasn't? 

I mean, sure, technically it isn't, but for all intents and purposes it is. I mean, hell, if I were of the crowd that was virulently opposed to the FFTL camp on principle, I'd say that's a point in favor of my argument. "The option is already there, use it" and so forth. 

Because some who opposed m/m romances wanted to say, "Shepard can't be gay" and then the obvious counter is, "Well, yeah....FemShep can!  *points to Liara*" then the counter to that was, "That's not an f/f romance."

[Ray Joel Oh]

Pordis Shepard wrote...

I very much would like me3 to develop social interaction that is not strictly romance, even though I like the romance options, and I have high hopes they are doing this.

But I'm curious (not that kind), what would people think of an opening game setup where you define your shep's romance interests: straight, alien, bi, s/s, or none, and let the character dialog reflect your choices in me3? (Maybe that's too many choices for BW to do, but if they could what would you think?)

I kind of like this idea.  I'm really glad for the expanded accessibility but that would be a nice way of avoiding conflict with folks who are turned off by that.  The options are there for those that want them, and those that don't can completely avoid them.  Seems like a smart way to go.  I know lots of people mockingly refer to Mass Effect as just a dating sim; giving folks the option to avoid the relationships completely could help their enjoyment  And for all of DA2's legitimate problems, I had read from several people that the main reason they were constantly mocking the game in various forums was because of the homosexuality.  We can't pretend like this childishness doesn't exist; in fact it's pretty rampant throughout the gaming community.  Whether we like it or not, it is important to keep such people in mind. 

[upsettingshorts]

jlb524 wrote...

Because some who opposed m/m romances wanted to say, "Shepard can't be gay" and then the obvious counter is, "Well, yeah....FemShep can! *points to Liara*" then the counter to that was, "That's not an f/f romance."

Yeah, and that counter - even when BioWare was the one making it - holds up for about twenty seconds of scrutiny.

[Siansonea]

jlb524 wrote...

TheBlackBaron wrote...

When did people ever argue that it wasn't? 

I mean, sure, technically it isn't, but for all intents and purposes it is. I mean, hell, if I were of the crowd that was virulently opposed to the FFTL camp on principle, I'd say that's a point in favor of my argument. "The option is already there, use it" and so forth. 

Because some who opposed m/m romances wanted to say, "Shepard can't be gay" and then the obvious counter is, "Well, yeah....FemShep can!  *points to Liara*" then the counter to that was, "That's not an f/f romance."

We've been down this road so many times, haven't we? What's funny is when I point out that if Liara isn't female, then MaleShep and Liara then becomes a non-heterosexual relationship. That shuts them up quick.

[Ryzaki]

makalathbonagin wrote...

ryzaki you should buy yourself some sex games. there're plenty in the game market
just saying ...

The o/s people could do the same thing.  Then they could take all the romances out and we can actually get some decent character development! 

[jakers_75]

YES. This has totally just made my day! I knew Henry wouldn't be alone forever! =D

[Clonedzero]

Eradyn wrote...

Conversely, can people accept if a character ultimately is heterosexual? You can't "convert" someone. If one's sexual orientation is something you are born with, that is not something where "a character (or person) can change." You either are or you aren't. And to try to get someone who is hetero to convert is just as wrong as trying to convert someone who is homosexual or bisexual into being heterosexual.

While I don't want to see already established LIs have their sexual orientation changed (be they Kelly, Samara, Liara, Thane, Miranda, Garrus, Kaidan, and so forth), I do strongly support there being new LI options that are designed from the ground up for homosexual or bisexual relationships.

thats a good point

[Romudeth]

While I'm for all inclusive relationship options in games I do find it kind of weird that all of a sudden everyone in the Mass effect games is bi-sexual.

People do change but if you are born hetero or gay that's the way you will always be. Some people think that being gay or straight is a choice but it isn't. It's biological. You can't help what you prefer. It's written into your brain chemistry. Mass effect is a sci-fi series so some wild explanation of why everyone is suddenly bi-sexual could be written but realistically people who are straight will always be straight and people who are gay will always be gay.

I understand that Bioware wants people of all sexual orientations to enjoy their games but it's a bit odd to have characters who we have known as being straight to suddenly change for no apparent reason. The real reason is a real world reason (to get people of all types to enjoy ME) but how this is going to be explained in the story is beyond me.

[Apollo Starflare]

I bet the new same sex romances will primarily involve new characters anyway following Casey's tweet. Although the 'necessarily' bit does suggest there could be more to it than that. *shrugs* Don't see what the big deal is about though,

[upsettingshorts]

Eh, people get married and come out later in life all the time for all kinds of reasons.  I mean, I doubt that Thane's wife was a beard, but you get the idea.  I don't think anyone would honestly prefer if Garrus suddenly burst into MShep's quarters and said, "I'm gay now, let's ****!"

I think what everyone wants ultimately is for whatever BioWare does to be done well. The hesitancy comes from - well, aside from the bigots but who cares about them - the belief among some posters that BioWare has mismanaged this in the past. I personally don't think so, but if people take issue with some implementation of sexual orientation in BioWare games in the past then at least their position has some legitimacy.

Also Liara and Samara don't have a "sexual orientation" because Asari don't work that way. Just sayin'.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 16 mai 2011 - 11:46 .

[ipgd]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I don't think anyone would honestly prefer if Garrus suddenly burst into MShep's quarters and said, "I'm gay now, let's ****!"

[Eradyn]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Also Liara doesn't have a "sexual orientation" because Asari don't work that way. Just sayin'.

Asari are mono-gendered, but they can still have a "sexual orientation" (or perhaps "preference" if you'd rather). 

Liara likes both male and female Shepards.  I think a number of people would be upset if she one day decided she only preferred one or the other (as remote as that might be, I will grant. ).  That's why I included asari on the list.  I do understand why people wouldn't consider them this way, however, and that's fine.

Modifié par Eradyn, 16 mai 2011 - 11:52 .

[upsettingshorts]

@ipgd:  Saw that coming.

Eradyn wrote...

re: Asari

As far as I understand it I'd categorize Asari preferences as more closely related to statements such as, "I really like blondes" or "I can't date a guy shorter than me" than binary sexual orientation.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 16 mai 2011 - 11:54 .

[Siansonea]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

@ipgd:  Saw that coming.

Eradyn wrote...

re: Asari

As far as I understand it I'd categorize Asari preferences as more closely related to statements such as, "I really like blondes" or "I can't date a guy shorter than me" than binary sexual orientation.

With an asari, it would be perfectly logical for her to like male humans, female turians, and male quarians, but not the opposite genders of those species. And be open to salarians, but not krogan or volus. Because asari are themselves mono-gendered, the gender differences of other species would be viewed individually in their eyes, I think, and depending on the asari, she might respond to those differences on a species by species basis, rather than just all males or all females, regardless of species.

[Siansonea]

Eradyn wrote...

Conversely, can people accept if a character ultimately is heterosexual? You can't "convert" someone. If one's sexual orientation is something you are born with, that is not something where "a character (or person) can change." You either are or you aren't. And to try to get someone who is hetero to convert is just as wrong as trying to convert someone who is homosexual or bisexual into being heterosexual.

While I don't want to see already established LIs have their sexual orientation changed (be they Kelly, Samara, Liara, Thane, Miranda, Garrus, Kaidan, and so forth), I do strongly support there being new LI options that are designed from the ground up for homosexual or bisexual relationships.

I don't mind heterosexual characters. I have several heterosexual Shepards, after all. I'm not an advocate of an all-bi squad, though it's the easiest way to satisfy the most players from a meta-game standpoint. I'd prefer to have heterosexual, bisexual and gay characters, but if I could only choose ONE, I'd naturally choose bisexual because they would offer the most options for my various characters.