6696 réponses à ce sujet

[Blacklash93]

knaus86 wrote...

Olwydd wrote...

*Sigh* This is why we can't have nice things. You have your cake, and now others have their cake. And guess what, it's a magic cake, so others having their cake doesn't mean you get less! Hooray! Now both parties can have their cake, and everyone is satisfied. There's no reason to deprive people of their cake simply because they were deprived of it before.

In case you were wondering, the cake is romance.

they should have baked the freaking cake properly from the start. not got it out halfway through and stuffed a different flavour into it then put it back in the oven

thats a **** cake.

By that analogy, Bioware only put in some extra flavoring in one piece of the cake. One you don't have to try.

[Olwydd]

knaus86 wrote...


they should have baked the freaking cake properly from the start. not got it out halfway through and stuffed a different flavour into it then put it back in the oven

thats a **** cake.

Sure, they could have made that cake properly the first time, but they saw their mistake, exchanged it (at no extra cost), and gave us a new and better cake. One with more magical pieces that everyone can enjoy. And you know what? I like this new one just fine.

Modifié par Olwydd, 17 mai 2011 - 12:56 .

[KawaiiKatie]

hawat333 wrote...

Same way, Shepard, for example, was straight for two games.

You might be able to make that argument for NPCs, but Shepard is more of a concept that we all can borrow from and mold to into our own vision. While Shepard may be straight white male in your game, Shepard can also be a Chinese lesbian in someone else's game.

My male Shepard has been gay for two games. It was, as you said, "written all over him." His flat out rejections of Liara, Tali, Miranda and Jack, his eagerness to befriend male squadmates, the way he prioritized Jacob and Thane and Zaeed's missions before anyone else... Yeah, he's always been gay. You can make the argument that Kaidan, Jacob, and all the other male NPCs are straight, but please don't imply that Shepard is.

Your Shepard can be straight. But "Shepard" as a character can be any gender, race, or sexuality that the player desires.

[nikohollick]

sht! i liked that the dudes were not gay cuz that way i could be a good guy with them and still wouldnt romance with them, but now since i didnt slept with any girl in both ME, the characters could turn out being gay with my shepard since is not defined that he is straight, im gonna have to be neutral now. Appart from that, this the doesnt affect me at all

[Blacklash93]

hawat333 wrote...
Same way, Shepard, for example, was straight for two games.

No.

[Haristo]

nikohollick wrote...

sht! i liked that the dudes were not gay cuz that way i could be a good guy with them and still wouldnt romance with them, but now since i didnt slept with any girl in both ME, the characters could turn out being gay with my shepard since is not defined that he is straight, im gonna have to be neutral now. Appart from that, this the doesnt affect me at all

and that's why I think for the sake of peoples who has clears canons ideas in their heads they should have a switch somewhere defining your in-game sexual preferences... I'd put it Bi all time but I do respect others' vision of Shepard...

My vision is clear however : Shepard is lesbian.

Modifié par Haristo, 17 mai 2011 - 12:56 .

[Eternal Dust]

hawat333 wrote...

The funny thing is, that my best friend is actually gay. So don't think that that's my problem. My problem is that I never tolerate any of these things being forced on me. A character with rewritten sexual identity two thirds into the the story is such a thing. So if I get to choose, and I get nothing misleading if I follow my previous route... well, that would be a thing that could work all of us who oppose this decision, I think.

This carries as much weight as the "My best friend is black" argument. Romances are optional. Nothing's being forced on you. And straight, male Shep always had the option to have bright pink armor, but did you ever have to wear it?

[PMC65]

hawat333 wrote...

Haristo wrote...

Because it's the same thing : It's not because you never knew that a character was gay that he's not and can't be. and using the gameplay argument is breaking the fourth wall.. the only valuable argument is a fact stating in ME1 or ME2, of a character saying ''dude : I don't like penises''.. But there's none !

False.
To give a BioWare-related example.
For example, look at Anders in DA:Awakening. An absolutely straight character, it's written all over him. Without any verbal comfiration.
Look at him in DA2, if you play a male char (never tried female, don't know the layout). It's homosexual written all over him.
Same way, Shepard, for example, was straight for two games.

I haven't played DA2 yet ... but are you worried that Garrus will be dressed like Liberace in ME3?

[thatguy212]

PMC65 wrote...
I haven't played DA2 yet ... but are you worried that Garrus will be dressed like Liberace in ME3?

someone needs to make a picture of this

[knaus86]

Olwydd wrote...

knaus86 wrote...


they should have baked the freaking cake properly from the start. not got it out halfway through and stuffed a different flavour into it then put it back in the oven

thats a **** cake.

Sure, they could have made that cake properly the first time, but they saw their mistake, exchanged it (at no extra cost), and gave us a new and better cake. One with more magical pieces that everyone can enjoy. And you know what? I like this new one just fine.

what im saying though, is if we dont have pink lines or icons. im just there hanging out with my buddy garrus, being all paragon, bam. paraphrase stuff up. gay alien sex*.

*dramatisation - but you get my point

[Ryzaki]

PMC65 wrote...

hawat333 wrote...

Haristo wrote...

Because it's the same thing : It's not because you never knew that a character was gay that he's not and can't be. and using the gameplay argument is breaking the fourth wall.. the only valuable argument is a fact stating in ME1 or ME2, of a character saying ''dude : I don't like penises''.. But there's none !

False.
To give a BioWare-related example.
For example, look at Anders in DA:Awakening. An absolutely straight character, it's written all over him. Without any verbal comfiration.
Look at him in DA2, if you play a male char (never tried female, don't know the layout). It's homosexual written all over him.
Same way, Shepard, for example, was straight for two games.

I haven't played DA2 yet ... but are you worried that Garrus will be dressed like Liberace in ME3?

Not that. Anders being a needy clingy character (he's been through hell) and he reaches out to dude Hawke for a little affection. 

THAT'S APPARENTLY THE WORSE THING EVER. 

Even though you can reject him and all you get is a sharp little "everyone's trying to control my thoughts." and 15 rivalry points. 

Let's ignore the fact that the poor dude just got his feelings stomped on and condemn him for daring to be hurt and flirt with M!Hawke a little.

And do note you have to be the nice guy for this to happen in hte first place, and once you rebuke him he doesn't bring it up again. 

OR you can reject him before he even opens his mouth and get no rivalry points at all. 

But apparently THAT'S TOO HARD! 

[MACharlie1]

knaus86 wrote...

Olwydd wrote...

knaus86 wrote...


they should have baked the freaking cake properly from the start. not got it out halfway through and stuffed a different flavour into it then put it back in the oven

thats a **** cake.

Sure, they could have made that cake properly the first time, but they saw their mistake, exchanged it (at no extra cost), and gave us a new and better cake. One with more magical pieces that everyone can enjoy. And you know what? I like this new one just fine.

what im saying though, is if we dont have pink lines or icons. im just there hanging out with my buddy garrus, being all paragon, bam. paraphrase stuff up. gay alien sex*.

*dramatisation - but you get my point

Do you honestly read the dialog choices or do you just pick the top one because it's the most paragon? It's very easy to avoid romance. Especially with a totally clueless guy like Garrus - his option was "We could work out stress together..." and then you STILL get another way out because he thought it was about sparring. 

[Torhagen]

About time the Flirt/Romance/Relationship part was well done in Da2

[SennenScale]

PMC65 wrote...
I haven't played DA2 yet ... but are you worried that Garrus will be dressed like Liberace in ME3?

They're worried he'll dress like a moody rebel mage in a robe, I guess?

EDITED because I accidentally let a spoiler slip. Sorry!

Modifié par SennenScale, 17 mai 2011 - 01:19 .

[Olwydd]

knaus86 wrote...

what im saying though, is if we dont have pink lines or icons...

I'll agree with you on this point, and I rather liked how they implemented such a system in DA2. I didn't like having to tip-toe around every possible romanceable male character with my FemShep, though this was more of an issue in ME1. Most romances, are, however, easily avoidable in ME2, as the flirty/romantic options are fairly obvious. Icons do help, though.

Modifié par Olwydd, 17 mai 2011 - 01:20 .

[paptschik]

I don't care if Shepard can be gay or bi. That's up to the players. But I kidna fear "canon" now telling me that the way the characters clearly were to me was wrong all along.

Someone here, forgive me I forgot the name, keeps mentioning that Anders was always bi and we all just assumed wrong.
Good...but that is annoying. That is the game telling me that how I played it is incorrect. And I don't want that, even less so with my favorite characters.
It was never said in any of the Star Wars movies that Han Solo wasn't in fact bi or banging Wookies....but I wouldn't like a game about Han and Chewie being madly in love.
The thing is also, these changes, like Anders, would for most characters, clearly be something that was NOT originally planned. (which may be why I have no problem whatsoever if it is Kaiden and Ashley that end up as bi, but it may also be that I simply don't care enough about those two)
So, as far as I'm concerned, Anders was always bi, but this "always" began during the production of DA2 and NOT in DA:O:A.

And I am NOT opposed to gay or bi relationships. In fact, aside from Anders I liked it in DA2, mostly because Merrill was too minor a character in Origins, so I had no problem with her, Isabela was always bi and I quite like how Fenris was written (in fact, I only like Fenris if you are in a relationship with him, gay or straight...outside of a relationship he's a tad boring to me). Zevran is my favorite DA character and I love how he hides his true emotions under a thick layer of flirting too much with anyone and anything. I also have a Femshep that is flirting with Kelly.

But if Garrus or Joker or Tali or Jack became bi (even if Jack seems to have at least tried it)....well, that would be official canon telling me "you're ME universe is incorrect". I can roleplay my Shep the way I like and that's great...but the other characters are beyond my control and if they are bi, they will always be bi and I can never state my opinion that they are straight, because I will ALWAYS be wrong, because, like Anders, they suddenly will have always been bi.
And..I just don't like that.

And, and I hope it doesn't sound offensive to anyone, but...I just hate this "They never said they were straight" explanation. It was also never stated that Tali wasn't in fact a male quarian in drag pretending to be a female and that is why we didn't get to see "his" face in ME2.
People act like assuming characters to be straight is a horrible sin, but, what with straight people being the vast majority, it just makes sense and logic would only lead to most people having a "straight until proven otherwise" view. And that is something you shouldn't fault people for, especially when you're main explanation for returning characters to be bisexual is "they didn't say they weren't".

I don't know...it would just irk me to get information like that so late in the story. Usually in something where romance is unimportant, sexuality is and should be a non issue to me. And I actually like it when they never talk about it and just end it with saying "oh yeah, he or she is gay". But the moment romances become of any importance for a character, for a story, for a game, well, that changes. And romances in are a big part of the appeal of Mass Effect to many players and I just think these things should be set in stone from the start.

So...yeah. I don't want to offend anyone, just sharing my opinion. A gay Tali, Garrus or Joker or whatever wouldn't keep me from buying the game, I love ME and Bioware too much for that. But it would bother me, if only because any of MY Mass Effect storylines would officially be incorrect then.

[Ryzaki]

Torhagen wrote...

About time the Flirt/Romance/Relationship part was well done in Da2

Thankfully it's laughably easy to avoid a unwanted romance in DA2. 

[James2912]

I don't see how having a colored love dialogue option would hurt. Jack always seems to think I want to be with her, when all I really want to do is cheer her up a bit and be her friend.

[RaenImrahl]

The subject of "rape" needs to be left out of this discussion... period. Even just as an example, it's in poor taste.

[SennenScale]

Ryzaki wrote...

Torhagen wrote...

About time the Flirt/Romance/Relationship part was well done in Da2

Thankfully it's laughably easy to avoid a unwanted romance in DA2. 

Pfft. I couldn't even get a romance when I was TRYING. I pissed my LI off forever.

[Dasher1010]

leonia42 wrote...

Eradyn wrote...

leonia42 wrote:

For what
it's worth, I feel like the following characters could safely be written
as bisexual (since most of them were originally):

Miranda
Kaidan
Jack
Garrus
Tali

I'll be honest, only one I was aware of was Kaidan.  Are there recorded dialogue lines for the others?

Miranda was originally intended to be bi, Jack states that she is bi, Garrus says he doesn't prefer humans by will make an exception for Shepard (why can't this apply to both genders?), Tali flirts with a female Shepard (not sure if Tali knows what her sexuality is yet)

You forgot Ashley and Thane. Jacob was the only exclusively hetrosexual option. Either that or we haven't encountered the files yet.

[Ryzaki]

SennenScale wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Torhagen wrote...

About time the Flirt/Romance/Relationship part was well done in Da2

Thankfully it's laughably easy to avoid a unwanted romance in DA2. 

Pfft. I couldn't even get a romance when I was TRYING. I pissed my LI off forever.

You were trying to romance Anders right? 

I managed to do the same thing once. I took too long deciding to pick a heart icon and got permantely friendzoned. 

Same thing happened with all the LIs. But Anders was particularly embarassing because he's pretty easy to romance. 

[paptschik]

Ryzaki wrote...

PMC65 wrote...

hawat333 wrote...

Haristo wrote...

Because it's the same thing : It's not because you never knew that a character was gay that he's not and can't be. and using the gameplay argument is breaking the fourth wall.. the only valuable argument is a fact stating in ME1 or ME2, of a character saying ''dude : I don't like penises''.. But there's none !

False.
To give a BioWare-related example.
For example, look at Anders in DA:Awakening. An absolutely straight character, it's written all over him. Without any verbal comfiration.
Look at him in DA2, if you play a male char (never tried female, don't know the layout). It's homosexual written all over him.
Same way, Shepard, for example, was straight for two games.

I haven't played DA2 yet ... but are you worried that Garrus will be dressed like Liberace in ME3?

Not that. Anders being a needy clingy character (he's been through hell) and he reaches out to dude Hawke for a little affection. 

THAT'S APPARENTLY THE WORSE THING EVER. 

Even though you can reject him and all you get is a sharp little "everyone's trying to control my thoughts." and 15 rivalry points. 

Let's ignore the fact that the poor dude just got his feelings stomped on and condemn him for daring to be hurt and flirt with M!Hawke a little.

And do note you have to be the nice guy for this to happen in hte first place, and once you rebuke him he doesn't bring it up again. 

OR you can reject him before he even opens his mouth and get no rivalry points at all. 

But apparently THAT'S TOO HARD! 

But what if one wants to be a nice guy that's not gay? Not all straight males are jerks you know. Why does not wanting to be with Anders make MHawke the bad guy stomping on the poor mans feelings?
Hawke is as much a victim there because Hawke ends up in the very uncomfortable situation of having to let down a friend and gaining rivalry points. And for what crime? Being nice to a bisexual friend even though you're straight yourself.

[Olwydd]

paptschik wrote...

But if Garrus or Joker or Tali or Jack became bi (even if Jack seems to have at least tried it)....well, that would be official canon telling me "you're ME universe is incorrect". I can roleplay my Shep the way I like and that's great...but the other characters are beyond my control and if they are bi, they will always be bi and I can never state my opinion that they are straight, because I will ALWAYS be wrong, because, like Anders, they suddenly will have always been bi.
And..I just don't like that.

But the thing is, non-player characters are not supposed to be under your control. And they can change or open up to you at the writer's discretion. Characters aren't static, especially in an interactive media like a video game where they have to respond to player decisions. But more importantly, what you perceive of them is not the totality of what they are. Thus Tali might well be bisexual - she may just take a little longer coming out with her feelings to a female Shepard than a male Shepard, for whatever perfectly explainable reason. That's not a retcon, that's character development and growth.

Modifié par Olwydd, 17 mai 2011 - 01:29 .

[Torhagen]

Ryzaki wrote...

SennenScale wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Torhagen wrote...

About time the Flirt/Romance/Relationship part was well done in Da2

Thankfully it's laughably easy to avoid a unwanted romance in DA2. 

Pfft. I couldn't even get a romance when I was TRYING. I pissed my LI off forever.

You were trying to romance Anders right? 

I managed to do the same thing once. I took too long deciding to pick a heart icon and got permantely friendzoned. 

Same thing happened with all the LIs. But Anders was particularly embarassing because he's pretty easy to romance. 

funny had no probs with that my lady hawke shagged isabella and got together with merill