6696 réponses à ce sujet

[Aramintai]

javierabegazo wrote...



Same Sex Romances confirmed for ME3 by Casey Hudson, executive Producer of Mass Effect
http://twitter.com/#...833443067969536

Is this what they meant when they said ME 3 will appeal to wider audiences?<_<
 
Sigh. I just hope there won't be any awkward dialogues out of the blue where good ol' buddy Garrus will start hitting on male Shepard (or creepy Jacob and his priiize ). I want an option for them just to stay friends and be able to talk to them normally. In ME2 it wasn't implemented properly as romanceable characters had nothing to say (calibrations?) to Shepard if he\\she wasn't romancing them.

Modifié par Aramintai, 16 mai 2011 - 06:16 .

[Fat Headed Wolf]

I think everyone will be O.K. with this so long as any character (S/S or no) doesn't rips off Shep's clothes like they're a bear and they just discovered honey on Shep's chest.

As with all characters, it NEEDS to be written well. Not because it's S/S, but because romance, of all things, has a tendency to sound very cheesy if the reader (in the case of a book) or player (in the case of a game) is not extremely engaged (which comes through....Ta-da! Good writing!)

I trust Bioware on that front. There are a few cases were it is a bit shaky, but more often than not, they succeed.

On the other hand, I can totally understand some hesitation from people on this. They may simply be uncomfortable with a homosexual character coming onto them even for a second.They may feel it shatters their image of said character. Again, understandable. As I've said before it's culture (all things are). All cultures think certain things are acceptable and certain things aren't. It's what makes the world interesting.

[jlb524]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Well, I hated Liara in ME1, but she was the only option, and after a while I grew to like her.  I think it's just better for the game overall if they restrict it to one m/m option.  I would LOVE for everyone to be romance material for either gender, but the game would get so much flak for it, and I feel like if they focused too much on romance, the friendship paths would be neglected (again).

Most of my favorite characters aren't romance options, and I think it makes them better for it.  Really, of my top six, Garrus is the only LI.  The rest (Wrex, Legion, Mordin, Samara, Kasumi) either never express interest or turn you down outright.  All six of these characters have great dialogue and story arcs attached to them regardless of romance (even though Garrus had calabratiotis).  They weren't thrown in there to give Shepard something to bone (again, Garrus is arguable, but I think his "bro-ness" is what most people find appealing).

Therefore, I'd rather keep new romances to a minimum--the characters that aren't romanceable are usually the most fun to talk to, in my opinion, and everybody can enjoy the same content without anything feeling forced.  Granted, the romances are great, but when I run into an LI, I can usually tell right away that they were put into the game for the sake of being an LI (ISN'T THAT RIGHT, THANE AND LIARA?).

Those are fine points, but those issues have nothing to do with sexuality.  I still like the DA2 system (less LIs, more developed friendships, but all the LIs are open to both).

I just don't like it when an issue is made out of sexuality, alone (which you didn't do but others have).

[Sunnie]

In ME2, there was already some set up for both Tali and Jack to be f/f LIs. Tali gets all flustered, makes some affectionate comments and then just stops talking. And Jack just all of the sudden says she's not into the girls club, after describing being in bed with both sexes and giving femShep the idea that she IS into the girls club. Neither can be considered a retcon if they were to become f/f LIs because they already started down that path to begin with.

[Ryzaki]

Captain Kibosh wrote...

I was originally going to respond to another thread entitled Fight for a Compromise, but it was locked by the moderators (who directed us here). Thought I would post it here having put a lot of thought into this. It's basically my argument against any game players who object to the increased options for same-sex relationships.

For some game players who are not in favor of same-sex relationships (often cultural bias under the guise of narrative credibility), their rationale to limit depictions of same-sex relationships basically boils down to a continuity argument: making characters "suddenly" gay or bisexual creates a problem of retroactive continuity--the controversial writer's ploy (and bane of some sci-fi aficionados) of re-creating the history of a given narrative.

I can agree up to a very limited point--to build into the narrative that every character is bisexual might push credibility, BUT really what some perceive as an "upending" of continuity comes down to a bias of (heterosexual) perception. Incidentally, I'm a heterosexual making this argument.

Why would some be incredulous about, say, Garrus "suddenly" being being gay (and Shepard having the dialogue trees to allow such an option) but not about when a player has the option to sleep with MULTIPLE opposite sex partners on a very very small ship, e.g., dumping Jack for Miranda would seem like a very very bad idea, but the ME2 narrative as it stands allows us to get away with it. Talk about a break in continuity in terms of Jack and her trust issues! Why wouldn't she treat Shepard into a major biotic smackdown given her trust issues? Is this adolescent male heterosexual fantasy of bedding every chick in sight really any more credible compared to Garrus possibly being in the closet or only finally opening up to Shepard in the third act? To my mind, not really!

And there's another problem with the continuity argument likely informed by (cultural/religious?) bias that wants to dictate what is "canon." Whose to say that futuristic society hasn't become more progressive in terms of the way it views sexuality?

As a teacher, I'm amazed and impressed by the way some of my students can be openly gay compared to when I was a student, where I think students in the closet were in mortal fear of social persecution. In fact, one of my own friends didn't come out till he was in college, and I had no clue back then!

If that could happen in one generation, then I wouldn't be surprised one hundred years from now that we don't have the same hang-ups on what constitutes social norms and "credible" behavior.

I don't know if there are any Dr. Who or Torchwood fans out there, but the character Jack Harkness embodies that omni-sexual outlook that seems entirely plausible to me for a man from the distant future.

So who am I to deny a space commando from the future his choice in partners? Do ask, do tell!

Interesting post.

Shouldn't be lost on the last page.

And I love Torchwood. I wish I could play Shepard like him.

[MGIII]

I don't have a problem with this. I was almost sure all of the men on the Normandy wanted Shepard's ass, now Bioware is enabling the Brokeback feature.

[ObserverStatus]

Aramintai wrote...
Is this what they meant when they said ME 3 will appeal to wider audiences?<_<
Sigh. I just hope there won't be any awkward dialogues out of the blue where good ol' buddy Garrus will start hitting on male Shepard (or creepy Jacob and his priiize ). I want an option for them just to stay friends and be able to talk to them normally. In ME2 it wasn't implemented properly as romancebale characters had nothing to say (calibrations?) to Shepard if heshe wasn't romancing them.

Creepy Jacob?  That's not fair, I think femshep is the creepy one in that pair.

[PMC65]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

javierabegazo wrote...

I find that often the best written characters aren't always the ones you can romance. Shale, from DAO, or Samara, in ME2 are examples of this for me.

To be fair.... I want Samara. I waaaaant Samara. She was so fascinating in ME2, and so well written... I can't help but hope that she'll become a "full-fledged" romance in ME3. Would the galaxy end if she found a little happiness? *sigh*

Maybe it's because she rejected me in ME2. Maybe her rejection made me want her all the more--that's a totally fair assessment. My point is, if a character is well-written and responds to my advances, I'm going to want to romance! And Samara is a prime example of that.

Because of her one of my Shepards took many cold showers! Torture ... fingers crossed for ME3

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Ryzaki wrote...

That won't be an issue if Shepard (like every s/s romance ever) initates the romance first. I can't remember a romance in a BW game where I didn't have to pick the obvious YOU ARE STARTING A GAY ROMANCE dialogue choice.

I know quite a few people who felt that way about Liara in ME1... that by just being nice to her, she ended up romancing them. In fact, the first thing I ever read about Mass Effect romance was a blog on some webcomic that said something like "Mass effect is the first game where you can have lesbian sex without meaning to." 

Based on the dialogue choices I've seen for all the LIs (some just from youtube)...

Kaidan and Ashley - flirt at least a little, even if not flirted with
Liara - flirts heavily with both genders, no matter what

Jacob - Femshep is way too flirty to start, awkward! 
Thane - calls you a pet name before the romance starts, expresses interest
Garrus - doesn't express interest, needs prodding

Tali - expresses interest
Miranda - expresses interest
Jack - doesn't express interest, confronts you and gives you a chance to initiate.

So far the vast majority of relationships have the other person expressing interest first, in some way. You have to actually make a selection to go into the relationship proper, and that's good.

But if I had Ash, Kaidan, Liara, Thane, Tali, and Miranda all giving me that "prompt" dialogue where they first express interest, and I had to explicitly reject them, I wouldn't like it... not because of their genders, but because I was breaking SO MANY HEARTS.

That said, when I am interested in Liara, I like the fact that she's openly flirty from the start. So I'm basically hoping that the new system is very revolutionary indeed, and allows them to write some flirty romances and some "hidden" romances for all the different orientations, without having to get that first "i'm interested" line from six different people.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 16 mai 2011 - 06:06 .

[Ryzaki]

bobobo878 wrote...

Aramintai wrote...
Is this what they meant when they said ME 3 will appeal to wider audiences?<_<
Sigh. I just hope there won't be any awkward dialogues out of the blue where good ol' buddy Garrus will start hitting on male Shepard (or creepy Jacob and his priiize ). I want an option for them just to stay friends and be able to talk to them normally. In ME2 it wasn't implemented properly as romancebale characters had nothing to say (calibrations?) to Shepard if heshe wasn't romancing them.

Creepy Jacob?  That's not fair, I think femshep is the creepy one in that pair.

Agreed. Jacob should'e gotten a restraining order. I know I would've.

[Paraxial]

Siansonea II wrote...
friendmances

Wouldn't that just be a friendship

[jlb524]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Two words: Tenchi Muyo.

I'd rather have four characters (of any gender combination!) available to me than nine characters (of any gender combination). I'm already bummed that I have to turn Thane down in order to romance Garrus. Having to turn down four or five more characters who are obviously interested me would make me feel like a huge jerk. Also, impossibly harried.

Funny, I've played ME2 5 or 6 times with a FemShep and never turned down any advances from a male squad member.  These romances are Shepard initated, not NPC initiated.  Which is why I just ignore the possibility of my Shepard possibly romancing any of the male characters (she's a lesbian and they know that, so they don't go for her..)

[Odins Raven]

Ok why not just have it as an option when you import your save or create a character
Same sex romance on/ off
Those who want them could have their all bi crew or some gay w/e
Those who don't want them won't ever see them except for that option
Obviously if a new member is strictly gay they still will be they just won't express interest in you.

Also if Shepard can get with any one as previously stated and proven why did he wait til now to get some man love?

[Alpha-Centuri]

Captain Kibosh wrote...

Why would some be incredulous about, say, Garrus "suddenly" being being gay (and Shepard having the dialogue trees to allow such an option) but not about when a player has the option to sleep with MULTIPLE opposite sex partners on a very very small ship, e.g., dumping Jack for Miranda would seem like a very very bad idea, but the ME2 narrative as it stands allows us to get away with it. Talk about a break in continuity in terms of Jack and her trust issues! Why wouldn't she treat Shepard into a major biotic smackdown given her trust issues? Is this adolescent male heterosexual fantasy of bedding every chick in sight really any more credible compared to Garrus possibly being in the closet or only finally opening up to Shepard in the third act? To my mind, not really!

Two wrongs don't make a right.

The narrative suffers from Shepard being to goddamn controlling. You are absolutely right on the hetero relationships, and that should be dealt with as well.

[Alpha-Centuri]

Ryzaki wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

Aramintai wrote...
Is this what they meant when they said ME 3 will appeal to wider audiences?<_<
Sigh. I just hope there won't be any awkward dialogues out of the blue where good ol' buddy Garrus will start hitting on male Shepard (or creepy Jacob and his priiize ). I want an option for them just to stay friends and be able to talk to them normally. In ME2 it wasn't implemented properly as romancebale characters had nothing to say (calibrations?) to Shepard if heshe wasn't romancing them.

Creepy Jacob?  That's not fair, I think femshep is the creepy one in that pair.

Agreed. Jacob should'e gotten a restraining order. I know I would've.

Shep: I just want to "talk" for a bit.

Jennifer Hale could have done better... A LOT better.

Modifié par Alpha-Centuri, 16 mai 2011 - 06:08 .

[Aramintai]

bobobo878 wrote...
Creepy Jacob?  That's not fair, I think femshep is the creepy one in that pair.

Well, he did "creep" into her cabin, did he not? 

[Siansonea]

Captain Kibosh wrote...

I was originally going to respond to another thread entitled Fight for a Compromise, but it was locked by the moderators (who directed us here). Thought I would post it here having put a lot of thought into this. It's basically my argument against any game players who object to the increased options for same-sex relationships.

For some game players who are not in favor of same-sex relationships (often cultural bias under the guise of narrative credibility), their rationale to limit depictions of same-sex relationships basically boils down to a continuity argument: making characters "suddenly" gay or bisexual creates a problem of retroactive continuity--the controversial writer's ploy (and bane of some sci-fi aficionados) of re-creating the history of a given narrative.

I can agree up to a very limited point--to build into the narrative that every character is bisexual might push credibility, BUT really what some perceive as an "upending" of continuity comes down to a bias of (heterosexual) perception. Incidentally, I'm a heterosexual making this argument.

Why would some be incredulous about, say, Garrus "suddenly" being being gay (and Shepard having the dialogue trees to allow such an option) but not about when a player has the option to sleep with MULTIPLE opposite sex partners on a very very small ship, e.g., dumping Jack for Miranda would seem like a very very bad idea, but the ME2 narrative as it stands allows us to get away with it. Talk about a break in continuity in terms of Jack and her trust issues! Why wouldn't she treat Shepard into a major biotic smackdown given her trust issues? Is this adolescent male heterosexual fantasy of bedding every chick in sight really any more credible compared to Garrus possibly being in the closet or only finally opening up to Shepard in the third act? To my mind, not really!

And there's another problem with the continuity argument likely informed by (cultural/religious?) bias that wants to dictate what is "canon." Whose to say that futuristic society hasn't become more progressive in terms of the way it views sexuality?

As a teacher, I'm amazed and impressed by the way some of my students can be openly gay compared to when I was a student, where I think students in the closet were in mortal fear of social persecution. In fact, one of my own friends didn't come out till he was in college, and I had no clue back then!

If that could happen in one generation, then I wouldn't be surprised one hundred years from now that we don't have the same hang-ups on what constitutes social norms and "credible" behavior.

I don't know if there are any Dr. Who or Torchwood fans out there, but the character Jack Harkness embodies that omni-sexual outlook that seems entirely plausible to me for a man from the distant future.

So who am I to deny a space commando from the future his choice in partners? Do ask, do tell!

I like this post. It has weight.

I think the differences in gay characters on television is also rather telling of how far society's attitudes have changed. When I was growing up, gay characters were almost unheard of, except for Jody on Soap, and Edith Bunker's transvestite friend who was killed by a gay-basher. Then in the 80s we had Jack Tripper pretending to be gay so he could share an apartment with two girls on Three's Company, Blake Carrington's son being gay on Dynasty, and a few other instances. But now, with Glee and Modern Family (and the new show Happy Endings) both embracing and shredding stereotypical ideas of homosexuality, it's clear that more and more people are striving to show that when it comes right down to it, we're all just people, and for the most part we're all more alike than we are different.

[Zulmoka531]

I'd just prefer new squadmate/NPC Lis, instead of retconning and changing previous characters just to appease people.

Modifié par Zulmoka531, 16 mai 2011 - 06:15 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

jlb524 wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Two words: Tenchi Muyo.

I'd rather have four characters (of any gender combination!) available to me than nine characters (of any gender combination). I'm already bummed that I have to turn Thane down in order to romance Garrus. Having to turn down four or five more characters who are obviously interested me would make me feel like a huge jerk. Also, impossibly harried.

Funny, I've played ME2 5 or 6 times with a FemShep and never turned down any advances from a male squad member.  These romances are Shepard initated, not NPC initiated.  Which is why I just ignore the possibility of my Shepard possibly romancing any of the male characters (she's a lesbian and they know that, so they don't go for her..)

See, if a character starts calling me a pet name, I think that he is interested in me. If I don't pursue that, I feel like I'm turning him down. It's the same if I'm playing Maleshep and I get to that conversation where Tali is obviously flirting with me, same for Miranda.

In ME2 I feel like the game forces me to hit on Jacob if I ever want to talk to him, that is unpleasant for me.

In ME1, if I don't romance anyone, I have to turn down both Kaidan and Liara.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 16 mai 2011 - 06:09 .

[Ryzaki]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
I know quite a few people who felt that way about Liara in ME1... that by just being nice to her, she ended up romancing them. In fact, the first thing I ever read about romance was a blog on some webcomic that said something like "Mass effect is the first game where you can have lesbian sex without meaning to."

She gives you a chance to say you like her to. There's a very obvious NO response there (there's two responses and one is bugged it's of course the renedouche option). If you pick the paragon she leaves you alone. Heck she's the only one who leaves my Shepard alone (Ash and Kaidan are the ones I wanna strangle and need a nuke to get away from).

Based on the dialogue choices I've seen for all the LIs (some just from youtube)...

Kaidan and Ashley - flirt at least a little, even if not flirted with
Liara - flirts heavily with both genders, no matter what

Jacob - Femshep is way too flirty to start, awkward! 
Thane - calls you a pet name before the romance starts, expresses interest
Garrus - doesn't express interest, needs prodding

Tali - expresses interest
Miranda - expresses interest
Jack - doesn't express interest, confronts you and gives you a chance to initiate.

So far the balance of relationships have the other person expressing interest first, in some way. You have to actually make a selection to go into the relationship proper, and that's good.

But if I had Ash, Kaidan, Liara, Thane, Tali, and Miranda all giving me that "prompt" dialogue where they first express interest, and I had to explicitly reject them, I wouldn't like it... not because of their genders, but because I was breaking SO MANY HEARTS.

That said, when I am interested in Liara, I like the fact that she's openly flirty from the start. So I'm basically hoping that the new system is very revolutionary indeed, and allows them to write some flirty romances and some "hidden" romances for all the different orientations, without having to get that first "i'm interested" line from six different people.

You have a very weak will. I don't mind saying no. That said I'd be more happy if I got more options to express interest first. Liara was actually common. BW female s/s romances always tend to be more overt. Their males tend to be the ones with a thousand confirmations.

Like This. (Skip to 1: 50) 

I can't getAnders to kiss my dude Hawke until I confirm it.  

Fenris on the other hand you have to actively persue (same with Merrill). I liked that in DA2 you had persuers and could be the persuee.

[Inquisitor Recon]

So we're back to people wanting preexisting LIs to suddenly decide they're bisexual? *sigh*

I oppose this to begin with but I really, really, really hope that isn't the route Bioware is taking.

[corporal doody]

Bible Doctor wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
friendmances

Wouldn't that just be a friendship

err....heavy homoerotic overtones and no sex?

[javierabegazo]

Bible Doctor wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
friendmances

Wouldn't that just be a friendship

Lol, reading that with your avatar was just priceless

Reminds me of Corrina, Corrina (1994) - IMDb

[Siansonea]

corporal doody wrote...

Bible Doctor wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
friendmances

Wouldn't that just be a friendship

err....heavy homoerotic overtones and no sex?

No, just friendships. I just wanted friendship to be given the same emotional weight as romances, is all.

[ObserverStatus]

wait, if Ashley was Bi all along, why'd she get so mad when I picked "Can't I have you both?"
... that was a joke...

Modifié par bobobo878, 16 mai 2011 - 06:22 .