6696 réponses à ce sujet

[Siansonea]

RaenImrahl wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

I have been trying to illustrate this point, which should be self-evident, for MONTHS, and yet every five minutes another person drops in and says the exact same thing.

And that's the problem, from my perspective.  Of course new people will come in.  That's the nature of an online forum. I frankly don't care one wit about the subject of this forum.  But I find the discussion interesting... except when it decends into this back-and-forth bickering, which you've championed tonight.

Siansonea II wrote...

Sometimes you have to use a bit of color commentary to get a point across, you know? People just don't listen when you use dry logic.

I can understand that, but engaging in a tete-a-tete with every single opposing viewpoint prevents the overall discussion from moving forward. What you're doing is not "color commentary". You're trying to slog it out with each and every person who has a divergent viewpoint.

So what, in your opinion, is the best way for Bioware to implement this change in romance options? Can you state your opinion, succinctly and colorfully, without trying to bulldoze all others out of the way?

My opinion? BioWare should do whatever they think is best for the story. Gay/Bisexual ManShep is a perfectly legitimate player choice, and having any romance options for players who want to roleplay him is a good thing. New characters, James Vega, old characters, Kaidan, it doesn't matter to me. Whatever is the best thing for the story. I'd rather have an awesome James Vega storyline than a weak Kaidan storyline, even though I know and like the Kaidan character so far. Good writing is my primary concern, as is the case for many people.

My only real objection is when people point to optional content in the previous games as a pretext to justify exclusion of other optional content in future games. If people want to be honest, and say they don't like the idea of Gay Shepard because it makes them uncomfortable, I can respect their honesty, at least. But the perennial idea that Shepard is canonically heterosexual is a textbook "disingenuous assertion" if you ask me.

[Marta Rio]

Hmmm, so the Fight for the Love folks managed to convince the powers that be that the same sex options will be worth implementing.  (And now I need to get cracking on my gay ManShep playthrough...here's hoping that James Sanders-Vega is smexxxy.)

My hope is that if any existing characters are revealed to be bi, that we can still preserve/expand on our platonic bromances (and sismances).  I don't really care if in someone else's playthrough Garrus/Thane/Jacob/Kaidan suddenly discovers they have feelings for ManShep, but I'd be kinda annoyed if my straight ManShep doesn't get to conclude his epic bromances with said characters. 

[atwatters]

[/quote]
So what, in your opinion, is the best way for Bioware to implement this change in romance options? Can you state your opinion, succinctly and colorfully, without trying to bulldoze all others out of the way?
[/quote]

Honestly, the best solution I heard was something that was posted in the DA2 forums when the game first came out; a choice during character creation to select a hetro/******/bi option so that people who want to avoid those scenarios don't have them forced on them. Homosexuality in games isn't my thing and I don't appreciate it when it is forced on me like it was in DA2, but thats not to say it shouldn't be there. Ultimately, I do understand the arguement too that homosexuals are constantly forced into heterosexual scenarios and that might make them uncomfortable or frustrated too because it isn't the experiance they want. Putting a "select" option could simply make it so that people respond to the player character differently, or it could even be something as simple as blocking out the options that would lead to a homosexual (or heterosexual) romance that would make people uncomfortable and damage their experiance. 

Modifié par atwatters, 17 mai 2011 - 04:21 .

[M-Sinistrari]

SilentNukee wrote...

If they add in a gay LI, do you honestly think a straight male playing the game as Shepard, would ever think of ever bringing him into their squad? They would probably try to avoid them as much as possible, or kill them off if they have the chance. But they wouldn't get the "know" the character indepth...and that's not cool. While having a gay Garrus, let's say, you'll still want to "bromance" him because of the way his personality is. We love him. And you could totally continue that without affecting anything, if you wish.

And how is avoiding or killing a potential gay LI character any different from the massive amounts of "Nuke Kaidan/Ashley every day!",  specifically planning deaths during the suicide mission, or specifically not recruiting a teammate when possible?

If someone doesn't like a character for whatever reason, nothing's really going to change that mindset short of the person themself.

[SennenScale]

SilentNukee wrote...

If they add in a gay LI, do you honestly think a straight male playing the game as Shepard, would ever think of ever bringing him into their squad? They would probably try to avoid them as much as possible, or kill them off if they have the chance. But they wouldn't get the "know" the character indepth...and that's not cool. While having a gay Garrus, let's say, you'll still want to "bromance" him because of the way his personality is. We love him. And you could totally continue that without affecting anything, if you wish.

Or they will just irrationally hate Garrus for "turning gay" or scream at Bioware in rage for "turning him gay". I don't think we can really win that battle.

Make no mistake, I would love to see a LI from a previous game open up. I would. Just watching the rage would be enough for me, heh.

[tishyw]

SilentNukee wrote...

If they add in a gay LI, do you honestly think a straight male playing the game as Shepard, would ever think of ever bringing him into their squad? They would probably try to avoid them as much as possible, or kill them off if they have the chance. But they wouldn't get the "know" the character indepth...and that's not cool. While having a "bi" Garrus, let's say, you'll still want to "bromance" him because of the way his personality is. We love him. And you could totally continue that without affecting anything, if you wish.

Re the bit in bold, but that's their choice, just as romancing said character might be yours.  You can't say "by not having gay/bi characters you're stopping us from role-playing our way" and then turn around and do extact that to other people!
Whether you think it's cool or not, if this is how others choose to role-play, it's up to them.  Just for the record, that's not how I'd choose to role-play but if you're championing choice then you have to accept ALL choice, not just the bits you like.

Edited to remove quote-tree

Modifié par tishyw, 17 mai 2011 - 04:24 .

[Eradyn]

Siansonea II wrote...

NICKjnp wrote...

Jack says she is straight.

Actually, Jack says she's not into the "Girl's Club" thing. People interpret that as her saying she's not into girls, but she also says she "doesn't have a boyfriend or a girlfriend" because it never works, and that she had threesomes with her friend Marana and her boyfriend. I think it's significant that she doesn't mention a male she had sex with by name. Clearly her primary relationship was with Marana. So she has s/s experience in her past, and a heightened animosity toward women (she goes off on Miranda, but not Jacob), which tells me that she has a sore spot with women, but not necessarily that she's a comfortable, confident heterosexual who simply isn't into women anymore. Jack's not the most 'reliable narrator' of her own life anyway, I would question and analyze everything that comes out of her mouth, she's the most psychologically damaged person in the game.

People don't know what a "girl's club" is? Really now...

Guys...a girl's club is nothing more than the female equivalent of a boy's club.  You know... "girls only, girl get-together, girls doing their own thing, no boys allowed, girl clique."  Boy's club: Replace "girl" with "boy" in that sentence.

Jack is saying she's not into the whole "let's get together and gossip while getting nails and hair done" type of thing.  Her "girl's club" analogy is a contemptuous dismissal toward femShep's overt attempts to get buddy-buddy and chat like they're close female friends.

Seriously...nothing to do with being bi, a lesbian, or not.

Modifié par Eradyn, 17 mai 2011 - 04:25 .

[PMC65]

mrsph wrote...

It is obvious a gay man cannot save the galaxy. As he would be too busy being stereotypical to do anything else.

Alexander the Great conquered the world!

[Ryzaki]

The nerdrage from all bi LIs in DA2 was glorious. I've never had so many lulz.

That said I wouldn't mind all the *new* LIs being bisexual (and frankly I'd want 4 of them. 2 of each gender). And for them to get lots of development and attention and TLC. And of course...smexiness. Maybe one of each gender will lean towards the renegade side and the other towards paragon.

And I can already see people trying to kill the bi LI off early. Which is why I want it to be someone unkillable like Joker . So I can cackle while they fume at being unable to kill him and even have to admit that he saved their lives.

[SennenScale]

M-Sinistrari wrote...

And how is avoiding or killing a potential gay LI character any different from the massive amounts of "Nuke Kaidan/Ashley every day!",  specifically planning deaths during the suicide mission, or specifically not recruiting a teammate when possible

Another good point for making a new character gay. He/She won't be killed off purposefully or accidentally by Virmire OR the suicide mission.

[javierabegazo]

Smilietime wrote...

Casey Hudson (from twitter):

"Some game sites saying "previously straight chars now available for both
m&f chars" not necessarily true. Will have some new LI's in ME3"

This sounds great. Someone should attatch this to the Origional Post.

It's annoying, reading some news articles going all jubilant about how they think they will finally have a gay relationship with their favorite character. I'm sure that they will all stay in character, regardless, rather than replacing a character we know with a similar character (who has a different orientation) all the sudden.

Just added it in the OP

[TheBlackBaron]

SilentNukee wrote...

SennenScale wrote...

SilentNukee wrote...

Sigh...
I dislike when people say this "it'd be better to have the new characters be bi or homosexual to save from having to explain why the oldies have all suddenly and simultaneously had sexual epiphanies."
.......................... They never said they were straight to begin with, you all assume they are because they do not show signs of the stereotypical gay image you have in your head.

At least the option would be there if it was new characters. One thing at a time. I don't think we can change people's ideas overnight, but gradual inclusion of normal gay people in media will still help.


Well, normal by ME standards, anyhow. Everyone's got baggage in Mass Effect.

If they add in a gay LI, do you honestly think a straight male playing the game as Shepard, would ever think of ever bringing him into their squad? They would probably try to avoid them as much as possible, or kill them off if they have the chance. But they wouldn't get the "know" the character indepth...and that's not cool. While having a "bi" Garrus, let's say, you'll still want to "bromance" him because of the way his personality is. We love him. And you could totally continue that without affecting anything, if you wish.

Frankly, when the conversation has reached the point where peope are sterotyping the crap out of straight males (god, I love being an Acceptable Target) and discussing the need to stealth an NPC open to homosexual relationships on the team, I think it's far beyond any sort of reasonable discussion and more into "you don't agree with me, you must be a homophobe/fruity fairy" territory. 

[Ryzaki]

Actually I'd rather they just make the old LI bi than have a new character that acts eerily similar to them yet is a s/s LI.

...That would be creepy.

...Then again maybe it could work. Garrus in a sexy male human body could work. He just would lack all of Garrus history with Shepard. 

...I probably wouldn't mind if he was BA enough. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 mai 2011 - 04:28 .

[SilentNukee]

tishyw wrote...

SilentNukee wrote...

If they add in a gay LI, do you honestly think a straight male playing the game as Shepard, would ever think of ever bringing him into their squad? They would probably try to avoid them as much as possible, or kill them off if they have the chance. But they wouldn't get the "know" the character indepth...and that's not cool. While having a "bi" Garrus, let's say, you'll still want to "bromance" him because of the way his personality is. We love him. And you could totally continue that without affecting anything, if you wish.

Re the bit in bold, but that's their choice, just as romancing said character might be yours.  You can't say "by not having gay/bi characters you're stopping us from role-playing our way" and then turn around and do extact that to other people!
Whether you think it's cool or not, if this is how others choose to role-play, it's up to them.  Just for the record, that's not how I'd choose to role-play but if you're championing choice then you have to accept ALL choice, not just the bits you like.

Edited to remove quote-tree

I suppose it is their choice, but I believe the ME team puts enough of their effort into creating a story for a character...It would be a great shame for them to completely overlook him because of this. I disliked Jack at first, but after doing her loyalty mission, you get to understand why she is the way she is...If you get where I'm coming from. 

[Siansonea]

NICKjnp wrote...

@Sian: That is looking too much into the psyche of a VG character. She says to Femshep that she isn't into girls...with Manshep she pursues a relationship. So to me she is the only character that we know is not bisexual.

Maybe it is, but I'd rather look too deeply into a character's psyche than not give them credit for a deeper character arc. I think a lot of characters show incredible depth in the games. Characters like Mordin and Legion, who I thought would be throwaway fanservice characters, ended up having amazing depth and compelling storylines. Mordin's ethical dilemma about his work on the genophage is some of the best dialogue in the whole series. I guess I just don't take everything at face value, because I've seen that with a lot of the characters, there is a lot going on under the surface.

[spacecowboy000]

Though I don't agree with/believe in the homosexual lifestyle, I personally have never had a problem with Bioware including homosexual romances in their games. Their games allow you to tailor the characters to whatever you want. It is a simple fact of life that some people are gay. My only issue is basically the same as many people here. The romances in Mass Effect have always been heterosexual. It was a choice by the company: http://www.eurogamer...xual-by-choice. If I'm not mistaken the time frame from ME2 to ME3 is at MOST a year. More than likely less considering the events of Arrival (no spoilers). To have established characters, not to mention maleshep/femshep, change their sexuality so radically in a short period of time is pushing it story-wise.

[tishyw]

SilentNukee wrote...

[The point isn't for EVERYONE to have the option, but only old members such a Ashley/Kaidan/Liara/Garrus and Tali, and that leaves us with 1-2 options for s/s on both sides.
Why does everyone assume we mean ALL of the old squaddies to have that option open when we say that? ...

Because some of us don't want that either SilentNukee!  Personally if they're going to make old love interest gay/bi, I'd prefer it if it was the ones from ME2 not the ones from ME.
We all know you want the ME love interests, you've been pushing that agenda since it was announced.

[Marta Rio]

SennenScale wrote...
Make no mistake, I would love to see a LI from a previous game open up. I would. Just watching the rage would be enough for me, heh.

Speaking of rage...I think it'd be awesome if Zaeed is the new m/m option.  He's never indicated anything about his romantic interests (as far as I can recall, unless Jessie counts as a girl?), would be a big stereotype breaker, and his sheer level of awesomeness might win over some of the homophobic crowd (maybe? eh probably not).

[PMC65]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

CmmndrShepard wrote...

yep, but it was cut...so why change it now? if I want m/m i'll play dragon age

Tali was gonna be an LI in ME1.  They cut it because they weren't sure people would go for her (chicken feet and all).  And then they put it back in for ME2 since people actually DID want it.

Supply and demand, my friend.  I've been waiting to save the galaxy as Freddie Mercury for over a year now.

Why did "Flash's Theme" just run through my head?

[AdmiralCheez]

SennenScale wrote...

Or they will just irrationally hate Garrus for "turning gay" or scream at Bioware in rage for "turning him gay". I don't think we can really win that battle.

Make no mistake, I would love to see a LI from a previous game open up. I would. Just watching the rage would be enough for me, heh.

No kidding, mate.  The rage is the #1 reason I'd like to avoid bi-ifying old crewmates.  Bioware would have to be suicidal.  I mean, me personally?  I wouldn't mind if it was done well at all (so long as it wasn't everyone), but seriously, if there's one thing I've learned from my male gamer friends, it is that Bromance is Sacred, and Brotherly Love is Holy.

Most dudes who crush on Garrus don't mind making a FemShep, anyway.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

tishyw wrote...

SilentNukee wrote...

[The point isn't for EVERYONE to have the option, but only old members such a Ashley/Kaidan/Liara/Garrus and Tali, and that leaves us with 1-2 options for s/s on both sides.
Why does everyone assume we mean ALL of the old squaddies to have that option open when we say that? ...

Because some of us don't want that either SilentNukee!  Personally if they're going to make old love interest gay/bi, I'd prefer it if it was the ones from ME2 not the ones from ME.
We all know you want the ME love interests, you've been pushing that agenda since it was announced.

Indeed. One of the main problems here is that everyone says "it's ok if just X and Y are bi now," with X and Y being different for everyone. My "ideal people to be newly bi" are Tali and Thane. Other people have other choices. That creates the illusion that to please everyone, everyone must be bi.

[M-Sinistrari]

PMC65 wrote...


Why did "Flash's Theme" just run through my head?

Going from what I remember of the lyrics...they fit.

[SennenScale]

Marta Rio wrote...

SennenScale wrote...
Make no mistake, I would love to see a LI from a previous game open up. I would. Just watching the rage would be enough for me, heh.

Speaking of rage...I think it'd be awesome if Zaeed is the new m/m option.  He's never indicated anything about his romantic interests (as far as I can recall, unless Jessie counts as a girl?), would be a big stereotype breaker, and his sheer level of awesomeness might win over some of the homophobic crowd (maybe? eh probably not).

Zaeed certainly wouldn't tolerate any crap being slung at him. That would be real interesting.

[Ryzaki]

True that's why there really should be 4 new LIs. And they should all be squaddies and s/s options.

That way no crew members have to be "turned" bisexual and everyone is happy and has a choice.

Would that be an okay compromise?