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[AdmiralCheez]

CmmndrShepard wrote...

Colin Ferrel doesn't count as Alexander the great...

Freddie Mercury could beat up Alexander the Great, anyway.  Or sing him into oblivion.

(Also, for sh*ts and giggles, John 13:23.)

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I decided to do a writeup of various systems I've seen proposed, incorporating some ideas I described in the previous threads. In my mind, these are two good potential ways to implement s/s romance, there are likely quite a few more that would also work. They are designed to make the maximum amount of people happy while also openly supporting same sex romance.

Possibility One - The player-initiated bisexual romance

Make many or all of the current love interests bisexual, give players an obvious, clearly labeled [friendship] and [flirting] divergence conversation early on, which either locks or unlocks the option to begin a romance. This divergence will always take the form of Shepard having an opportunity to hit on the Squadmate, rather than having the squadmate hit on Shepard first. At this point, if flirting is unlocked, NPCs will start having the romance lead-up dialogue, but will not be locked in as the "true" LI yet, so players can unlock flirting for multiple crew members if they wish, before deciding to who lock in as an LI. If friendship is locked in, player will receive no more romance prompts, and will get only friendship dialogue from there on out. There will be nearly as much friendship dialogue as LI dialogue.


Pros:
Resources - less work than many other options
Connection - all love interests are someone with whom the player already feels a strong connection
Reward - this would be the best way to reward patient fans who have been with the game since ME1
Unintrusive - players would be given a single chance to decide whether or not to initiate a romance, and the character in question would give no indication of interest, allowing players to easily ignore the option


Cons:
Harem syndrome - if everyone on the ship likes Shepard, some may find this oppressive or Mary Sue-ish
Limited Scope - all romances must be locked behind "player initiation" walls, NPCs can't initiate flirting
Player Error - possibly too easy to accidentally lock oneself in or out of a relationship
Continuity - a decent number of players feel that multiple simultaneous revelations of bisexuality would break their suspension of disbelief

Example
(I've included DA-style symbols, % locks in friendship, @ unlocks romance. Whether you want these to be colors, default wheel positions, icons, or whatever, I think there should be an option to have an indicator, if you want one.)

Tali: "Shepard, I've always mean to ask, how do humans... get to know each other? That is... what was your first kiss like"

Shepard
Someone you like {%} -              - Someone special
                                                     - No one in particular
Reminded me of you {@) -             - None of your business

If you pick "someone you like" you give Tali advice, like a caring older sibling, and get the [Friendship] flag. If you pick "reminded me of you" you get the [flirty] flag checked, which makes Tali flirty and gives you the option to check the [Romance] flag later. All the other options are neutral, though the ability to pursue frienship is always an option, as long as you don't continuously choose Renegade options.

Here's a similar dialogue, for Kaidan:

Kaidan:
"I tried to distract myself from the Reapers, even started having drinks with this doctor on the Citadel. It didn't help."

Shepard
I had someone {%} -              - The crew has each other
                                               - We have to focus
Waiting for you {@} -      - Don't rely on others

The "I had someone" frienship line would vary based on your ME1 or 2 LI, and the conversation would go to both of you reminiscing over past romances, like bros do. From then on, you only get the frienship options. If you pick Waiting for you, Kaidan will flirt with you a bit from then on, giving you the option to pursue the relationship.

Possibility Two - Canon and Fanon, gay, bi, and pansexual.

Two new relationships, which are m/m and f/f only in canon. These characters may flirt with the same sex, and may have conversations with either gender about their sexuality (in the same way that presumably straight characters can currently). Possibly a single existing option per gender unlocked as bisexual.

Friendship and flirting dialogue will be interwoven in the same way it is now, with the option to switch back and forth between conversations, and certain conversations including both options. There will be about the same amount of friendship dialogue as there is romance dialogue, but players will be able to access both in the same playthrough. Romance and friendship options may be color coded, if that option is selected in settings.

In addition, there would be a setting in-game that sets your playthrough to "Unflagged" mode. This setting can be changed at any time, similar to the difficulty setting. In Unflagged mode, every existing romance is available to all genders, similar to mods that remove or change the gender flag, but this is a fully supported feature, voice acted and tested. It would essentially be a "supported mod." In this mode, you do have to deal with all characters who have "flirtation-based" romances flirting with you.

Pros:
Unlimited Selection - Everyone can get exactly the romance they want, without modding. Players can make their own headcanon.
Realism - Some people are straight, some are gay, some are bi. Represents different sexualities as real and unchangeable.
Relationship Structure - Relationships can be written differently, with some relationships having squadmate initiated flirting, and others being Shepard initiated only. Romances can provide more different points of entry, and are harder to miss accidentally.

???
Deal with it! - Requires players to deal with the fact that their character knows a gay person, and that gay person might be attracted to them. I consider this a pro, others might consider it a con.

Cons:
Selection - While there are several obvious male choices (Joker, Nigel, James), there aren't any obvious f/f choice apart from Chakwas, who can be dead in some saves. Probably have to introduce a new character for the f/f romance.
Setting Drama - Some people may be upset if their favorite is only available in the "flagged" setting.
Too late - would have worked better if implemented this way from the beginning.


Example:

Joker new m/m exclusive romance, Femturian f/f exclusive romance, Miranda now bi, Thane now Bi. (Note - I picked existing characters who would be bi by rolling a D4 on a table. NERD.) All other romances as previously established.

In Unflagged mode, all characters available to both genders. In this mode they are all Shepardsexual, (for instance, Kaidan may tell a male Shepard that he reminds him of Rana, Jack still tells the story about the boy she loved, Garrus will still mention miss R&F.) If a given character flirts before their romance is officially started, like (ME1 romances did) all characters will flirt.

Female or male characters  who wanted opposite sex access the Joker or Femturian romances will have to play in unflagged mode.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 17 mai 2011 - 05:50 .

[colossus50000]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I decided to do a writeup of various systems I've seen proposed, incorporating some ideas I described in the previous threads. In my mind, these are two good potential ways to implement s/s romance, there are likely quite a few more that would also work. They are designed to make the maximum amount of people happy while also openly supporting same sex romance.

Possibility One - The player-initiated bisexual romance

Make many or all of the current love interests bisexual, give players an obvious, clearly labeled [friendship] and [flirting] divergence conversation early on, which either locks or unlocks the option to begin a romance. At this point, if flirting is unlocked, NPCs will start having the romance lead-up dialogue, but will not be locked in as the "true" LI yet, so players can unlock flirting for multiple crew members if they wish, before deciding to who lock in as an LI. If friendship is locked in, player will receive no more romance prompts, and will get only friendship dialogue from there on out. There will be nearly as much friendship dialogue as LI dialogue.


Pros:
Resources - less work than many other options
Connection - all love interests are someone with whom the player already feels a strong connection
Reward - this would be the best way to reward patient fans who have been with the game since ME1
Unintrusive - players would be given a single chance to decide whether or not to initiate a romance, and the character in question would give no indication of interest, allowing players to easily ignore the option


Cons:
Harem syndrome - if everyone on the ship likes Shepard, some may find this oppressive or Mary Sue-ish
Limited Scope - all romances must be locked behind "player initiation" walls, NPCs can't initiate flirting
Player Error - possibly too easy to accidentally lock oneself in or out of a relationship
Continuity - a decent number of players feel that multiple simultaneous revelations of bisexuality would break their suspension of disbelief

Example
(I've included DA-style symbols, % locks in friendship, @ unlocks romance. Whether you want these to be colors, default wheel positions, icons, or whatever, I think there should be an option to have an indicator, if you want one.)

Tali: "Shepard, I've always mean to ask, how do humans... get to know each other? That is... what was your first kiss like"

Shepard
Someone you like {%} -              - Someone special
                                                     - No one in particular
Reminded me of you {@) -             - None of your business

If you pick "someone you like" you give Tali advice, like a caring older sibling, and get the [Friendship] flag. If you pick "reminded me of you" you get the [flirty] flag checked, which makes Tali flirty and gives you the option to check the [Romance] flag later. All the other options are neutral, though the ability to pursue frienship is always an option, as long as you don't continuously choose Renegade options.

Here's a similar dialogue, for Kaidan:

Kaidan:
"I tried to distract myself from the Reapers, even started having drinks with this doctor on the Citadel. It didn't help."

Shepard
I had someone {%} -              - The crew has each other
                                               - We have to focus
Waiting for a chance {@} -      - Don't rely on others

The "I had someone" frienship line would vary based on your ME1 or 2 LI, and the conversation would go to both of you reminiscing over past romances, like bros do. From then on, you only get the frienship options. If you pick Waiting for a chance, Kaidan will flirt with you a bit from then on, giving you the option to pursue the relationship.

Possibility Two - Canon and Fanon, gay, bi, and pansexual.

Two new relationships, which are m/m and f/f only in canon. These characters may flirt with the same sex, and may have conversations with either gender about their sexuality (in the same way that presumably straight characters can currently). Possibly a single existing option per gender unlocked as bisexual.

Friendship and flirting dialogue will be interwoven in the same way it is now, with the option to switch back and forth between conversations, and certain conversations including both options. There will be about the same amount of friendship dialogue as there is romance dialogue, but players will be able to access both in the same playthrough. Romance and friendship options may be color coded, if that option is selected in settings.

In addition, there would be a setting in-game that sets your playthrough to "Unflagged" mode. This setting can be changed at any time, similar to the difficulty setting. In Unflagged mode, every existing romance is available to all genders, similar to mods that remove or change the gender flag, but this is a fully supported feature, voice acted and tested. It would essentially be a "supported mod." In this mode, you do have to deal with all characters who have "flirtation-based" romances flirting with you.

Pros:
Unlimited Selection - Everyone can get exactly the romance they want, without modding. Players can make their own headcanon.
Realism - Some people are straight, some are gay, some are bi. Represents different sexualities as real and unchangeable.
Relationship Structure - Relationships can be written differently, with some relationships having squadmate initiated flirting, and others being Shepard initiated only. Romances can provide more different points of entry, and are harder to miss accidentally.

???
Deal with it! - Requires players to deal with the fact that their character knows a gay person, and that gay person might be attracted to them. I consider this a pro, others might consider it a con.

Cons:
Selection - While there are several obvious male choices (Joker, Nigel, James), there aren't any obvious f/f choice apart from Chakwas, who can be dead in some saves. Probably have to introduce a new character for the f/f romance.
Setting Drama - Some people may be upset if their favorite is only available in the "flagged" setting.
Too late - would have worked better if implemented this way from the beginning.


Example:

Joker new m/m exclusive romance, Femturian f/f exclusive romance, Miranda now bi, Thane now Bi. (Note - I picked existing characters who would be bi by rolling a D4 on a table. NERD.) All other romances as previously established.

In Unflagged mode, all characters available to both genders. In this mode they are all Shepardsexual, (for instance, Kaidan may tell a male Shepard that he reminds him of Rana, Jack still tells the story about the boy she loved, Garrus will still mention miss R&F.) If a given character flirts before their romance is officially started, like (ME1 romances did) all characters will flirt.

Female or male characters  who wanted opposite sex access the Joker or Femturian romances will have to play in unflagged mode.

no. dont want this. dont need this. same sex romances do not need to be in this game. it wasnt in the first 2 game, it makes no sense to put it in the third to make a bunch of cry babies happy. they dont care about core gameplay they care about their fake love interest. this is just plain stupid.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

colossus50000 wrote...

no. dont want this. dont need this. same sex romances do not need to be in this game. it wasnt in the first 2 game, it makes no sense to put it in the third to make a bunch of cry babies happy. they dont care about core gameplay they care about their fake love interest. this is just plain stupid.

They've already said it's going to be in the game, so it's all a question of what's the best way to do it? at this point. It'd be more productive if you gave coherent feedback on how you'd like to see it presented, than just saing "don't put it in."

Also, the vast majority of all media released so far has focused on core gameplay, not romances. This thread is based on a short series of tweets, so while people in this thread care about it, it's clear where Bioware's focus lies.

If you'd like, you can suggest throwing in an option for an "asexual" mode that diables all love interests for those who think that romances are inappropriate in a Mass Effect game.

Also, same sex romances have effectively existed since the first game, in the form of Liara. Sure the asari are "different." Hmm. Would the problem be solved for you if the s/s romance took the form of a new race where all the aliens are male?

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 17 mai 2011 - 05:51 .

[Sanguinerin]

PMC65 wrote...

Tali also hints at it (sharing the suit) with the femshep and gets embarrassed. It caught my femshep off guard.  

That was quite possibly one of my favorite moments on my female Shepard. I definitely would have romanced her on that character, given the option. I love Garrus as a friend, don't want to romance Thane but like his character, and don't care much for Jacob at all, so most of my female Shepards are loyal to Kaidan if they're straight, or Liara if not.

I'm glad to hear about a M/M option in ME3. My male Shepards either romance Tali because she's so adorable that if I have to have a straight romance it's with her, or they don't romance anyone.

[d-boy15]

for me...

-don't make every LI to be bi,just only one who have possibly like Tali, Jack etc.
-ME3 should focus on story and gameplay not the romance subplot. (I know romance is the
important part of bioware games but this is RPG not a dating sim.)

[PMC65]

HallowedWarden wrote...

PMC65 wrote...

Tali also hints at it (sharing the suit) with the femshep and gets embarrassed. It caught my femshep off guard.  

That was quite possibly one of my favorite moments on my female Shepard. I definitely would have romanced her on that character, given the option. I love Garrus as a friend, don't want to romance Thane but like his character, and don't care much for Jacob at all, so most of my female Shepards are loyal to Kaidan if they're straight, or Liara if not.

I'm glad to hear about a M/M option in ME3. My male Shepards either romance Tali because she's so adorable that if I have to have a straight romance it's with her, or they don't romance anyone.

If Tali is opened up to the femshep's ... I'll have to create a new femshep for her.

[VoidCabbage]

colossus50000 wrote...
no. dont want this. dont need this. same sex romances do not need to be in this game. it wasnt in the first 2 game, it makes no sense to put it in the third to make a bunch of cry babies happy. they dont care about core gameplay they care about their fake love interest. this is just plain stupid.

This statement is just so incorrect.

First off, the whole game isn't NEEDED it's not a necessity that it exists merely something people want and so we are here to discuss what we want in the game.

It wasn't in the first two games therefore it makes no sense that its in the third.

that is a false statement.

calling people crybabies. Not helping anyone.

I care in a big way about the core gameplay. I also care about the love interests, or rather THE STORY. It's a bioware game afterall.

EDIT: spelling.

Modifié par VoidCabbage, 17 mai 2011 - 05:59 .

[Ryzaki]

Wait. Does anyone know when this tweet was made (stolen from Kaidan thread)

Queston: Can you at least confirm if some of the previous LI's (Of either gender choice) will now be open to the same-sex option?

Answer: As w/ the other LI's, specifying who, why, and how spoils the value of the storyline. We want you to discover for yourself.

Sounds like a massive ****storm incoming *hits the deck*

Then again that could be a fancy way of saying none.

*pops back up*

Please for the love of pete be Joker and the new guy.  I don't want the bleh food (to my personal tastes) that's already been passed out to everyone and they decide to give me some scraps. If I didn't want it when it was fresh why would I want it now? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 mai 2011 - 06:04 .

[CheeseEnchilada]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

colossus50000 wrote...

no. dont want this. dont need this. same sex romances do not need to be in this game. it wasnt in the first 2 game, it makes no sense to put it in the third to make a bunch of cry babies happy. they dont care about core gameplay they care about their fake love interest. this is just plain stupid.

They've already said it's going to be in the game, so it's all a question of why.

Also, 99% of all media released has focused on core gameplay, not romances. This thread is based on a single tweet, so while people in this thread care about it, it's clear where Bioware's focus lies.

If you'd like, you can suggest throwing in an option for an "asexual" mode that diables all love interests for those who think that romances are inappropriate in a Mass Effect game.

Also, same sex romances have effectively existed since the first game, in the form of Liara. Sure the asari are "different." Hmm. Would the problem be solved for you if the s/s romance took the form of a new race where all the aliens are male?

Asexuality doesn't necessarily mean not being involved in a romantic relationship. Nitpicky, I know, no offense meant 

But I've got to say, I'm not a big fan of toggles. The romances in ME2 can be easily avoided, and this will probably continue in ME3. Adding any sort of toggle gives unfortunate implications, and not only when it comes to sexuality. To me, it makes it sound like the romances are simply a cool extra feature, like the ability to toggle helmets or blood spatter in DA2. And yes, the romances are just a nice extra feature, but one that helps us connect with characters and see some possible development, not just an asthetic touch.

And CulturalGeekGirl, your previous post is excellent, and I applaud the effort. Hope it doesn't get left in the dust due to the fast pacing of the thread!

[SennenScale]

Ryzaki wrote...
Wait. Does anyone know when this tweet was made (stolen from Kaidan thread)
Queston: Can you at least confirm if some of the previous LI's (Of either gender choice) will now be open to the same-sex option?
Answer: As w/ the other LI's, specifying who, why, and how spoils the value of the storyline. We want you to discover for yourself.
Sounds like a massive ****storm incoming *hits the deck*

That is either very promising or a very obvious dodge. I cannot tell. *headscratch*

[Ryzaki]

SennenScale wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Wait. Does anyone know when this tweet was made (stolen from Kaidan thread)
Queston: Can you at least confirm if some of the previous LI's (Of either gender choice) will now be open to the same-sex option?
Answer: As w/ the other LI's, specifying who, why, and how spoils the value of the storyline. We want you to discover for yourself.
Sounds like a massive ****storm incoming *hits the deck*

That is either very promising or a very obvious dodge. I cannot tell. *headscratch*

I hope it was a dodge. 

I wantz my Joker.  

[DarthSlim108]

I just breathed a huge sigh of relief after reading Casey's second update. New characters who are gay or bi I can deal with. Garrus or Thane suddenly hitting on me, not so much.

[StElmo]

I think this is quite clearly and overreaction. Who said bioware weren't going to introduce new gay characters?

Also, who knows exactly which character is gay bi or straight?

Also, what's with almost all the women being bi, but the men can't be? I'm a bit confused... Are you all dumb biased males?

Also, someone made a good point that Ashley was quite clearly a straight christian, so if she's not bi, surely thhere are male characters who are not bi.

Will I persue a gay relationship with kaiden or with another male character? Probably not, but I don't begrudge the possibility occuring.

What have you people learnt? If you love the series so much, have some damn faith in the writers, they will more then likely strike the best balance to allow all kinds of relationships to occur without it being silly.

I think it's mostly that you guys are predominately insecure males and can't handle the fact shepard is a specific character to each player.

[SennenScale]

Ryzaki wrote...

SennenScale wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Wait. Does anyone know when this tweet was made (stolen from Kaidan thread)
Queston:
Can you at least confirm if some of the previous LI's (Of either
gender choice) will now be open to the same-sex option?
Answer: As w/
the other LI's, specifying who, why, and how spoils the value of the
storyline. We want you to discover for yourself.
Sounds like a massive ****storm incoming *hits the deck*

That is either very promising or a very obvious dodge. I cannot tell. *headscratch*

I hope it was a dodge. 
I wantz my Joker. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/sad.png[/smilie] 

Quick, who among us speaks marketing? Dissect tweet, stat!

Modifié par SennenScale, 17 mai 2011 - 06:09 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

SennenScale wrote...

Quick, who among us speaks marketing? Dissect tweet, stat!

I speak Dev.

That tweet means "nothing is fully implemented yet and marketing will place all their sharp mareketing knives under my skin if I reveal something before the reveal date they have carved upon the black obelisk in their dimension of pain."

[Ryzaki]

SennenScale wrote...

Quick, who among us speaks marketing? Dissect tweet, stat!

Sadly I know zero marketing speak.  

Really though. I want Joker. He's funny, doesn't have a drove of issues, not too cheerful, good looking, has history with Shepard, is familiar and wasn't a romance option so him being a bisexual romance wouldn't be a retcon. 

He's the perfect candidate. 

The new guy can be the strictly m/m romance. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 mai 2011 - 06:11 .

[RaenImrahl]

SennenScale wrote...

Quick, who among us speaks marketing? Dissect tweet, stat!

(Dusts off his B.S. in Communication)

Translation:  "We ain't sayin', so why don't you pre-order the game?"

[SennenScale]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

SennenScale wrote...

Quick, who among us speaks marketing? Dissect tweet, stat!

I speak Dev.

That tweet means "nothing is fully implemented yet and marketing will place all their sharp mareketing knives under my skin if I reveal something before the reveal date they have carved upon the black obelisk in their dimension of pain."

Thank you, CGG.

They have learned from spoiling the hell out of ME2 before it was out the door,  I suppose? Then again, I have been consciously trying to avoid that happening so it may just be me.

[Ryzaki]

RaenImrahl wrote...

SennenScale wrote...

Quick, who among us speaks marketing? Dissect tweet, stat!

(Dusts off his B.S. in Communication)

Translation:  "We ain't sayin', so why don't you pre-order the game?"

 That sounds about right. 

They need to hurry up and make a CE/SE/whatever they're gonna call it before I can though. 

[onelifecrisis]

SennenScale wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

SennenScale wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Wait. Does anyone know when this tweet was made (stolen from Kaidan thread)
Queston:
Can you at least confirm if some of the previous LI's (Of either
gender choice) will now be open to the same-sex option?
Answer: As w/
the other LI's, specifying who, why, and how spoils the value of the
storyline. We want you to discover for yourself.
Sounds like a massive ****storm incoming *hits the deck*

That is either very promising or a very obvious dodge. I cannot tell. *headscratch*

I hope it was a dodge. 
I wantz my Joker. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/sad.png[/smilie] 

Quick, who among us speaks marketing? Dissect tweet, stat!

Dude, that's not marketing, it's just evasion.

[SennenScale]

onelifecrisis wrote...

Dude, that's not marketing, it's just evasion.

I took twelve ranks in blunt, uninspired, and inability to read between the lines?

[RaenImrahl]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I speak Dev.

That tweet means "nothing is fully implemented yet and marketing will place all their sharp mareketing knives under my skin if I reveal something before the reveal date they have carved upon the black obelisk in their dimension of pain."

Indeed.  Given the hurricane of media nonsense that formed around ME1, I suspect any details even remotely hinting of sex in the game will be closely managed.  Unless they can translate such a hurricane into more sales.  

[TheBlackBaron]

That's called a dodge, Casey probably not wanting to ignite even more of a ****storm than they already have (because whatever answer they give is going to cause one).

Also what CulturalGeekGirl said.

Still think that, given how the retraction of "no new LIs" came right on the heels of this, they're going to make the homosexual options all new characters. As long as they don't cut into the time of previous characters, that's cool. Because I seriously can't handle another game of calibrations. 

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 17 mai 2011 - 06:28 .

[SilentNukee]

RaenImrahl wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I speak Dev.

That tweet means "nothing is fully implemented yet and marketing will place all their sharp mareketing knives under my skin if I reveal something before the reveal date they have carved upon the black obelisk in their dimension of pain."

Indeed.  Given the hurricane of media nonsense that formed around ME1, I suspect any details even remotely hinting of sex in the game will be closely managed.  Unless they can translate such a hurricane into more sales.  

This was indeed, the most...painful thing to watch.
Lady, play the damn game, FFS.

Modifié par SilentNukee, 17 mai 2011 - 06:28 .