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[The Narrator]

RinjiRenee wrote...

The Narrator wrote...

so by merging a sarcastic heterosexual rebellious wizard, with a Spirit with no sexual feelings or physical attatchments bent on justice and truth at any cost.

makes a homosexual.

Makes perfect sense.

1) Anders was bisexual before merging with Justice
2) He is bisexual

Makes sense to me.

few things.

it only makes you look good when you cut off her comment.

He
was straight in Awakenings, and your lieing to yourself if it wasn't
obvious he was straight, flirting with one gender and not the other is
pretty goddamn obvious.

Bisexuality is popular so bioware is
capitilizing on that to gain a fan base among Teen age girls,
homosexuals,  bisexuals, and those who support homosexuality and
bisexuality.

whereas with ME2 they tried to gain a foot hold with FPS fans and Third person shooter fans.

I like to imagine at some point making games was about creating a world of your own.

[Siansonea]

Clonedzero wrote...

well i wish people would stop suggesting unless its specifically stated in a game that its wrong to assume a person is straight based off evidence of them being attracted to the opposite sex and showing absolutely zero signs of being attracted to the same sex. its pretty safe to assume they're straight.

because then, uh, everyone in just about every character in every story sexuality could be in question and thats silly. characters sexual orientation shouldnt "up in the air" simply because they didnt specifically proclaim themselves one. it should be fairly obvious, if its not then its a poorly written character.

Poor writing *needle scratch* poor writing *needle scratch* poor writing *needle scratch*

So, Willow from Buffy The Vampire Slayer is a "poorly written character"? And since when is the quality of writing an empirical absolute? Last I heard it was a subjective value judgement. From what it sounds like, if a character changes in any way from their initial incarnation, then it's poor writing. They should be completely static. To me, THAT is poor writing.

Annnnd, you didn't address my "retcon" comments regarding Anders. How is it a retcon if Anders literally isn't the same Anders due to fusing his personality with a Fade creature?

[Centauri2002]

The Narrator wrote...

We are all gonna use these debates as metaphors for when entertainment companies use politics to gain demographics.

Except BioWare have obviously been listening to their current fans. It took them long enough but they finally listened to feedback. I doubt they'll gain a huge amount of new players through this but they've certainly made a lot of people who already own ME1 & 2 happier.

[Walrusninja]

I'm cool with adding options, especially where it makes sense like with Liara, that always made sense. But seriously Bioware, DO NOT alter previous characters for political correctness' sake. Those characters are already designed and written in as they are, fiddling with that just starts a string of questions and unfitting elements in past games. You have been warned.

So by all means, open things up for a wider range of players, but seriously, do not make every character in the game Bi or change the orientation of past characters unless it makes absolute sense.

Whatever the case, do it right please. I mean, it's pretty stupid to my mind that there's this huge fuss about romance when the universe is at stake, but at least make it mature and realistic if you must. Ie. I do not want to have to go through a "sorry I'm not gay" option with every single character or have the option for my Shephard to suddenly turn gay mid-apocalypse, I think he'd have more important matters on his mind frankly, and it would pretty much rip apart immersion and make my Shephard into a pick and mix idiot of a character with no focus on the job at hand. Worst possible timing for that to kick in.

Seriously Bioware, don't screw this up! Don't mess with what's working well, work on what isn't and add what's lacking. This is ME3, the final installment of my favorite game series ever made. I have taken Shephard through this journey so far, loving every second, making decisions and sculpting him. Don't do some sculpting between games on my character for PC sake, leave him alone! I'm here to save the universe not get into fanfiction-esque romances with everything that moves.

Seriously, mess this up, and I will RAGEFACE big time. Please don't.

[Sherbet Lemon]

ipgd wrote...

Come on, we're not this bad.

Oh.
That can't be real.  For the sake of my pure and innocent mind. That cannot be real. 

Modifié par Village Idiot, 17 mai 2011 - 06:47 .

[HiddenKING]

I don't care about any of this discussion, but I honestly thought Anders was gay in Awakenings.

[Eradyn]

Village Idiot wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

So, why are we debating Anders' sexuality again?

The short answer: because some people will latch onto anything in order to justify their heteronormativity.  Despite the fact that  Anders is not a example of established sexuality.  He wasn't even romanceable in Awakening.  It's pretty much just conjecture and projection, but DA2 is pretty much what everyone beats up on around here nowadays so yeah...

Also, I don't like the term "established" sexuality.  If a character can change as a person (or evolve i.e. Batman Garrus, Jack open herself up to love Shepard) then why can't a person come to the conclusion that perhaps, they might be bisexual or what have you?  What is it about this change that is so irksome...I have a theory and it doesn't have anything to do with bunnies.

Because sexual orientation does not change. It isn't a choice, it's what you are born as. You don't wake up one day saying, "gee, today I think I'll be gay, just for the hell of it." You are what you are. You can no more "convert" a heterosexual to homosexuality than you can a homosexual to heterosexuality. We're talking sexual orientation here, not someone's favorite movie or their maturing taste in literature.

Modifié par Eradyn, 17 mai 2011 - 06:49 .

[Cartims]

Clonedzero wrote...

Cartims wrote...

I once was with a woman who was divorced and had 2 children, I guess she didn't know her sexuality was already predefined and couldn't be with me....gee, I'm glad she didn't know.....wonderful times indeed...just saying.

most big problems in peoples lives have pretty anti-climatic solutions that'd be boring and lame in a story.
100% realism isnt always best lol

You missed the point, and sometimes fact is stranger than fiction my dear....boring and lame is to ignore that all types of people exist...your fantasy world of all straight people and only gays that carry a sign is lame and boring..and unrealistic...

[Ryzaki]

I guess Snape didn't love Lily then? Since it was never said until the last HP book. And Dumbledore must be asexual...so must quite a few people. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 mai 2011 - 06:49 .

[ipgd]

The Narrator wrote...

He
was straight in Awakenings, and your lieing to yourself if it wasn't
obvious he was straight, flirting with one gender and not the other is
pretty goddamn obvious.

You really don't have any clue why a man might openly flirt with women and not men, even if he were also interested in men?

Most other men are straight. He can reasonably assume that most other men are not interested in him and he would be wasting his time.

[The Narrator]

centauri2002 wrote...

The Narrator wrote...

We are all gonna use these debates as metaphors for when entertainment companies use politics to gain demographics.

Except BioWare have obviously been listening to their current fans. It took them long enough but they finally listened to feedback. I doubt they'll gain a huge amount of new players through this but they've certainly made a lot of people who already own ME1 & 2 happier.

how long have you been a fan?

A small vocal minority that people feel sorry for wanted homosexual relationships.

The majority wanted a mix of ME1 and ME2,  solid story and a series of numerous minor requests.

this isn't really related to How they are searching for a demographic and media coverage. as well as putting politics so far up the ass of the video game industry its never going to properly dislodge it.

[The Narrator]

ipgd wrote...

The Narrator wrote...

He
was straight in Awakenings, and your lieing to yourself if it wasn't
obvious he was straight, flirting with one gender and not the other is
pretty goddamn obvious.

You really don't have any clue why a man might openly flirt with women and not men, even if he were also interested in men?

Most other men are straight. He can reasonably assume that most other men are not interested in him and he would be wasting his time.

but then theres DA2 where he doesn't give a **** and flirts, and thats after getting merged with a spirit of justice lol

[Clonedzero]

Siansonea II wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

well i wish people would stop suggesting unless its specifically stated in a game that its wrong to assume a person is straight based off evidence of them being attracted to the opposite sex and showing absolutely zero signs of being attracted to the same sex. its pretty safe to assume they're straight.

because then, uh, everyone in just about every character in every story sexuality could be in question and thats silly. characters sexual orientation shouldnt "up in the air" simply because they didnt specifically proclaim themselves one. it should be fairly obvious, if its not then its a poorly written character.

Poor writing *needle scratch* poor writing *needle scratch* poor writing *needle scratch*

So, Willow from Buffy The Vampire Slayer is a "poorly written character"? And since when is the quality of writing an empirical absolute? Last I heard it was a subjective value judgement. From what it sounds like, if a character changes in any way from their initial incarnation, then it's poor writing. They should be completely static. To me, THAT is poor writing.

Annnnd, you didn't address my "retcon" comments regarding Anders. How is it a retcon if Anders literally isn't the same Anders due to fusing his personality with a Fade creature?

ive never seen enough Buffy you answer that. so i cant really say either way.

and all im saying, is you cant go "well all these people could be bi! they never said they werent!" its ridiculous. sure very specific examples might be an exception, but theres exceptions to every rule. are you saying every character in every storys sexuality is in question unless they specifically state their sexual orientation? its silly and stupid.

i didnt address retcon stuff about anders because i dont care. him being bi isnt really a big deal, it never bothered me. and of course its a retcon if anders is litterally isnt the same anders anymore. especially if it happens off screen. well maybe retcon isnt even the right term for it, who cares? its semantics. they ruined anders character by completely and utterly changing his personality. through retcon or just a bad story arch does it really matter? his character was ruined.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Siansonea II wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

well i wish people would stop suggesting unless its specifically stated in a game that its wrong to assume a person is straight based off evidence of them being attracted to the opposite sex and showing absolutely zero signs of being attracted to the same sex. its pretty safe to assume they're straight.

because then, uh, everyone in just about every character in every story sexuality could be in question and thats silly. characters sexual orientation shouldnt "up in the air" simply because they didnt specifically proclaim themselves one. it should be fairly obvious, if its not then its a poorly written character.

Poor writing *needle scratch* poor writing *needle scratch* poor writing *needle scratch*

So, Willow from Buffy The Vampire Slayer is a "poorly written character"? And since when is the quality of writing an empirical absolute? Last I heard it was a subjective value judgement. From what it sounds like, if a character changes in any way from their initial incarnation, then it's poor writing. They should be completely static. To me, THAT is poor writing.

Annnnd, you didn't address my "retcon" comments regarding Anders. How is it a retcon if Anders literally isn't the same Anders due to fusing his personality with a Fade creature?

I agree that you can't conclusively determine someone's sexuality without asking them. I'll agree that someone might encounter something later in life that makes them drastically reconsider their sexuality. These are all fine.

What I object to is the idea that it's wrong to form theories about what gender a character likes based on their stated preferences. I form theories based on people's stated preferences all the time: I theorize that Wrex is straight and not attracted to humans, because he's said that human women are squishy and weird, and he wants the Krogan to focus on breeding. I theorize that my friend who only ever hits on boys and dates boys and collects Yaoi is gay, rather than bi. Now, Wrex could be bi and xeno, but I don't think you can call my conclusions unwarranted.

I'm fine with one or two characters coming out as bi. I actively support new S/S exclusive LIs. I actively support an "unflagged" mode where all love interests are turned on for everyone and all bets are off.

But I'm unwilling to accept the idea that anyone whose sexuality is not firmly established has an equal chance to be either straight or bi.

Honestly, I think it would have fixed the Anders thing for a lot of people if he simply said "I don't usually talk about this," or something similar, when mentioning Karl. Because for me a bisexual in an oppressive society refraining from talking about his bisexuality most of the time makes perfect sense.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 17 mai 2011 - 06:54 .

[Clonedzero]

Cartims wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

Cartims wrote...

I once was with a woman who was divorced and had 2 children, I guess she didn't know her sexuality was already predefined and couldn't be with me....gee, I'm glad she didn't know.....wonderful times indeed...just saying.

most big problems in peoples lives have pretty anti-climatic solutions that'd be boring and lame in a story.
100% realism isnt always best lol

You missed the point, and sometimes fact is stranger than fiction my dear....boring and lame is to ignore that all types of people exist...your fantasy world of all straight people and only gays that carry a sign is lame and boring..and unrealistic...

you're putting words in my mouth. stop it. its very insulting. also stop misinterpreting what im saying.

all i was saying was that the real world and what happens in stories isnt always the same. tone down the hostility as well. seriously whats your problem?

[ipgd]

The Narrator wrote...

but then theres DA2 where he doesn't give a **** and flirts, and thats after getting merged with a spirit of justice lol

Hawke pings his gaydar, perhaps not always accurately. Boulton makes a pretty fabulous queen.

He also immediately appologizes after he does it and asks if it makes you uncomfortable. If you ask him to, he stops.

[James2912]

elfadelbosco wrote...

I hope for a more in depht characterization of LIs, and a good, slowly progressing romance story like in ME1.
And a wonderful breathtaking kiss and love scene like in ME1

I want the same. I want a little more, well angst! But I also want friendships! ME2's friendship dialogue options sucked! Jack for example wouldn't talk with you unless you romanced her! MOAR dialogue!

[Walrusninja]

If Wrex is gay or something, that would make no sense whatsoever. As has been said, the Krogan are very matter-of-fact about relationships and very practical, it's not some soppy fan-fiction. The Krogan just wouldn't even get into this sort of conversation, it would be utterly our of character.

[Ryzaki]

Ugh. People are now saying Joker's obviously straight because he was listening to porn with a woman in it. *sighs*

Good grief.

[Centauri2002]

The Narrator wrote...
how long have you been a fan?

A small vocal minority that people feel sorry for wanted homosexual relationships.

The majority wanted a mix of ME1 and ME2,  solid story and a series of numerous minor requests.

this isn't really related to How they are searching for a demographic and media coverage. as well as putting politics so far up the ass of the video game industry its never going to properly dislodge it.

Why does it matter how long I've been a fan? I've been a fan of BioWare since Baldur's Gate, if you must know. I've had an account on these forums and the old one ever since they've been around. 

Feel sorry for? Now, now, no need to be condescending. What's there to feel sorry for? I already had my same sex relationship in ME 1 & 2 but I felt the need to stand up and say no to double standards. And, honestly, I don't want to see two men getting it on either (just as I've no interest in seeing heterosexual antics) but it won't even effect my game so who am I to stand in the way of others' enjoyment? More happiness all round, I say!

If you want to see it that way, so be it. The majority are getting what they desire in changes to gameplay, it seems, so I'm not seeing a problem with adding even more to the improvements. 

Modifié par centauri2002, 17 mai 2011 - 06:56 .

[Siansonea]

Eradyn wrote...

Village Idiot wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

So, why are we debating Anders' sexuality again?

The short answer: because some people will latch onto anything in order to justify their heteronormativity.  Despite the fact that  Anders is not a example of established sexuality.  He wasn't even romanceable in Awakening.  It's pretty much just conjecture and projection, but DA2 is pretty much what everyone beats up on around here nowadays so yeah...

Also, I don't like the term "established" sexuality.  If a character can change as a person (or evolve i.e. Batman Garrus, Jack open herself up to love Shepard) then why can't a person come to the conclusion that perhaps, they might be bisexual or what have you?  What is it about this change that is so irksome...I have a theory and it doesn't have anything to do with bunnies.

Because sexual orientation does not change. It isn't a choice, it's what you are born as. You don't wake up one day saying, "gee, today I think I'll be gay, just for the hell of it." You can no more "convert" a heterosexual to homosexuality than you can a homosexual to heterosexuality. We're talking sexual orientation here, not someone's favorite movie.

Well, except it does. It happens all the time. People don't check a box on a survey form at age 15 and that's that. The real world doesn't fit into neat little boxes. Sexuality is much less cut-and-dried than that, as much as less introspective folks would like to believe otherwise.

I worked with a guy who was constantly dating this woman or that, and talking about his sexual escapades, though not in a crude way. Mainly just referring to girls he went out with, and everyone assumed he was 100% heterosexual. Well, a few years after we stopped working together, I caught up with him, and he was in a committed relationship with another man. And he said it wasn't so much about being with a man, but being with that particular man. Something about him made my friend completely rethink his previous sexual "preference" and he discovered that he was mostly straight, but he could be in a gay relationship if the guy was special enough. And that's not the only example I've witnessed. I have a female friend who is married to a man, but who has identified as bisexual, in conversation, many years after I met her and assumed she was straight. 

I guess somebody should tell these friends of mine that their lives are "bad writing", huh?<_<

[Ghost Warrior]

Clonedzero wrote...

well i wish people would stop suggesting unless its specifically stated in a game that its wrong to assume a person is straight based off evidence of them being attracted to the opposite sex and showing absolutely zero signs of being attracted to the same sex. its pretty safe to assume they're straight.

because then, uh, everyone in just about every character in every story sexuality could be in question and thats silly. characters sexual orientation shouldnt "up in the air" simply because they didnt specifically proclaim themselves one. it should be fairly obvious, if its not then its a poorly written character.

I completely agree. Saying "it is possible,they never said they were straight" is not enough.Yes,it is possible,but extremely unlikely. I don't need to hear my friends say they are straight to know they are,for certain.



Those who haven't already voted in a poll on this matter,please do. Link is in my sig.

[SennenScale]

The Narrator wrote...

how long have you been a fan?

Excuse me? Bioware's had S/S romances for a while. 

[Walrusninja]

Sounds like he was Bi all along Sian?