6696 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

SennenScale wrote...

Ghost Warrior wrote...

Village Idiot wrote...
  What's wrong with making it seem normal? 

The fact that is not.
Whether some people approve it,and others not doesn't matter. It is not normal(standard),it is in significant minority.
Making multiple people bi on a 12 men team is wrong.

Why is this particular statistic anomaly so bothersome to you in a game whose main character came back from the dead?

With a ****** poor explanation for how his body is magically in meat chunks instead of disintegrating in the atmosphere of the planet he was falling into. <_<

[Russalka]

C9316 wrote...
Oh look more poorly veiled political correctness and victim mentality, seems like you can't even breathe without offending someone.

If being called abnormal does not constitute as even mildly offensive to you, then how about consider the fact that arguing over the nature of homosexuality is off-topic?

Modifié par Russalka, 17 mai 2011 - 08:41 .

[Ryzaki]

fredmillstabs wrote...

So sex with another species is ok,
but sex with another human (of the same sex) is not?

Pretty much. 

I'm not sure if I should laugh or cry. 

[James2912]

Walrusninja wrote...

Alright. I doubt anyone will read my guff, but I'll try to share it anyways.
I think the problem here is as follows:

Homosexuality, and the likes really, are VERY raw subjects. As has been seen here, when you get down to it, we still don't even know the facts of the subject ie. are you born gay, straight etc. is it a decision? (anyone who even trys to argue that one out ..... just don't start, anyone who does will be ignored entirely fro argueing theories). So there's only so far this can go before it errupts into "my opinion over yours".

I think the community looking for the relationship variety, really should be grateful to Bioware for what they've managed to achieve. I think Bioware however need to be careful not to segregate the community and incite hate, and really should just cut the focus on romance and focus on the story but hey, I admire their guts for trying.

It's more a society problem than a problem just on here. The ideas of sexuality are spreading, but there's a LOT of "oh if you disagree you're an intollerant homophobe" goes on too. That really helps nobody, in fact, it incites hatred and divison, fairly so. This is a culture-shock, massive, massive change, deal with that. It's something that'll grow over time and through acceptance and open mindedness ON BOTH SIDES. It isn't a matter of "hi, the government is cool with us now so accept us or we'll look down on you". Hundreds of years of values and ideals are being questioned and sorted here, that isn't easy.

I admire anyone who truly believes in what they are doing. I admire the old school thinkers who are sticking to their roots and their ideals, why shouldn't they? And I admire gays etc. who are genuine about it and just trying to understand the world they live in and who they are. Both are valid, so stop trying to stamp on each other. This may sound brutal, but gays etc. especially need to be careful. As a minority, you need to strive and fight for the respect you desire, that's just the way it is. Forcing it breaks things and widens the gap. That does not mean "Gay Pride" parades, the exact opposite

Oh yeah, I have absolutely NO respect whatsoever, for non-gays etc. "standing up for" gays etc. In doing so, you not only show that you don't believe they are capable of standing up for themselves, which they totally are but you're also stupidly getting wound up on one of the "sides" and making the whole situation worse. It's like me saying "the elderly are strong and should be respected! they can speak for themselves! ... which .... is why I'm here speaking on their behalf!" - it makes no sense. You're showing respect with words and a lack of it with actions, cut it out, fakes.

SO. Bioware, please add at least 1 option for each. To my mind Liara is a definate and always should be, Kaiden always struck me as gay, he just did, I dunno why, I think it'd fit his personality. Ash, well, no. She's stubborn and kind of "by the books" it wouldn't fit her attitude.

Basically - yes, do this Bioware, but do it well. And DO NOT set everyone to Bi. Otherwise it just becomes a joke really. The majority of the world is straight and pretty solid in that, that's just the way it is. Making all the characters suddenly 100% sexually open breaks the characters developed so far especially seeing as we're about to go to full out war, it's not exactly time to settle down and start a family:)
Don't break the old characters, nerves are still raw on the subject, accept it or not, this would damage the characters for many. For me personally it would simply damage continuity and feel like a cheap publicity stunt.
New characters - go mad!

Failing all that, please, just focus on the damn story : /

Edit: if you want a pretty clear example of eveyrthing that's WRONG in this thread, look no further than ReveurIngenu. That, is how NOT to do it.

That was a damn good post. Its very realistic, not wishy washy  and it just makes sense. As  a libertarian I believe in people making their own decisions and living life as they want to on THEIR terms. I hate being preached to WHOMEVER it may be. 

PS I think walrusninja is just trying to say he has zero respect for people who are just jumping on a bandwagon because its cool or popular right now. Just like some people just jumped on the Obama bandwagon without even knowing what he stood for just because its popular. I voted for Obama originally not because it was cool but because I supported his suppossed policies of course he turned into Bush 2.0 but thats for another thread.

Modifié par James2912, 17 mai 2011 - 08:43 .

[ipgd]

Walrusninja wrote...
[snip]

It's nice to think "let's all just get along and respect eachother!", but it's also pretty naive. Blacks in America didn't beat the worst of their prejudice by calmly accepting that hating someone for the color of their skin is a valid opinion, they got there by being really loud about it and getting enough non-black people on their side that it became socially unacceptable to be racist. Homophobia will not go away until expressing these sentiments has negative social consequences and we stop giving bigots the time of day and legitimacy. That is how it works.


But...

Oh yeah, I have absolutely NO respect whatsoever, for non-gays etc. "standing up for" gays etc. In doing so, you not only show that you don't believe they are capable of standing up for themselves, which they totally are but you're also stupidly getting wound up on one of the  "sides" and making the whole situation worse. It's like me saying "the elderly are strong and should be respected! they can speak for themselves! ... which .... is why I'm here speaking on their behalf!" - it makes no sense. You're showing respect with words and a lack of it with actions, cut it out, fakes.

Did you think about what you just wrote? Really? That's... that's not how it works.

Modifié par ipgd, 17 mai 2011 - 08:39 .

[Servo to the bitter end]

Walrusninja wrote...
Oh yeah, I have absolutely NO respect whatsoever, for non-gays etc.
"standing up for" gays etc. In doing so, you not only show that you
don't believe they are capable of standing up for themselves, which they
totally are but you're also stupidly getting wound up on one of the
"sides" and making the whole situation worse. It's like me saying "the
elderly are strong and should be respected! they can speak for
themselves! ... which .... is why I'm here speaking on their behalf!" -
it makes no sense. You're showing respect with words and a lack of it
with actions, cut it out, fakes.

Wow.

It's called embracing your shared humanity. There's only one "side" (or at any rate, there should only be one side).

Modifié par TommyServo, 17 mai 2011 - 08:41 .

[LiquidGrape]

JetsoverEverything wrote...
would you have said that if they didnt include the s/s romance? 
or would you still be petitioning fo it to be included in?

Of course I wouldn't have. I would've been disappointed, naturally, and I would've made my disappointment known.
But I know better than to suggest the developer do a u-turn in the middle of development.
Others seem to think this is still a matter open for debate, and that they are somehow in a position to dictate what is "right" and make demands that such and such characters be left "unspoilt" or whatever.

I guess they're stuck in phase two on the Kübler-Ross.

Ghost Warrior wrote...

Whether some people approve it,and others not doesn't matter. It is not normal(standard),it is in significant minority.
Making multiple people bi on a 12 men team is wrong.

Exactly what norm does the demonstrably natural occurence of ****** and bisexuality interfere with?

Take your time.

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 17 mai 2011 - 08:45 .

[SennenScale]

Walrusninja wrote...

Oh yeah, I have absolutely NO respect whatsoever, for non-gays etc. "standing up for" gays etc. In doing so, you not only show that you don't believe they are capable of standing up for themselves, which they totally are but you're also stupidly getting wound up on one of the "sides" and making the whole situation worse. It's like me saying "the elderly are strong and should be respected! they can speak for themselves! ... which .... is why I'm here speaking on their behalf!" - it makes no sense. You're showing respect with words and a lack of it with actions, cut it out, fakes..

Straight people supporting gays combats the assumption that only gay people can be okay with gayness. You have no idea how many times I've heard it. It's a nasty one and it needs to die.

I don't think gay, lesbian and bisexual people should have to stand alone.

[Ryzaki]

Walrusninja wrote...
Oh yeah, I have absolutely NO respect whatsoever, for non-gays etc.
"standing up for" gays etc. In doing so, you not only show that you
don't believe they are capable of standing up for themselves, which they
totally are but you're also stupidly getting wound up on one of the
"sides" and making the whole situation worse. It's like me saying "the
elderly are strong and should be respected! they can speak for
themselves! ... which .... is why I'm here speaking on their behalf!" -
it makes no sense. You're showing respect with words and a lack of it
with actions, cut it out, fakes.

*head tilts*

What social movement worked using that theory? 

[Walrusninja]

Hang on a sec, I'm not saying "don't look out for your friends". I'm saying don't stand up for somone just because they're gay. That's singling them, out for a belief which that individual probably wants to become the norm, as in a not "you're different, here I'll defend you" thing. That isn't equality, that's segregation, and also ye, some genuinely don't realise that they're acting like others can't stand up for themselves. Sorry if I worded it poorly. kind of surprised that people took that out of it after all the rest : ?

Modifié par Walrusninja, 17 mai 2011 - 08:45 .

[James2912]

PS I think walrusninja is just trying to say he has zero respect for people who are just jumping on a bandwagon because its cool or popular right now. Just like some people just jumped on the Obama bandwagon without even knowing what he stood for just because its popular. These same people might turn against you if it became uncool to support you. A friend who loves you and once to support you is great. I voted for Obama originally not because it was cool but because I supported his suppossed policies of course he turned into Bush 2.0 but thats for another thread.

Modifié par James2912, 17 mai 2011 - 08:46 .

[Ghost Warrior]

TommyServo wrote...


Dude, shut up. I'm amazed that you don't realize how offensive that is, along with your previous statement. It's poorly veiled homophobia and arrogance.

No,I won't shut up. I say I don't approve homosexuality and suddenly everything else I said doesn't matter,that must be my only reason and everything else was there to hide my homophobia. WRONG!
If you read my older posts and those in Fight for Love,you would see that this is no new revelation,I never hid my disapproval of gay people.

If there was such option since ME1 I wouldn't like it,but I wouldn't complain about it. But waiting until the third game to introduce it...that I mind very much. Still,I am prepared for compromises - not making old characters suddenly bi and further break continuity,but introduce some new bi/gay characters.

Modifié par Ghost Warrior, 17 mai 2011 - 09:02 .

[The Uncanny]

Everyone please, let's keep it civil and not resort to insults.

[WizenSlinky0]

James2912 wrote...

Let me see if I can clarify peoples positions:
Most s/s supporters are fine with just having new bi or gay LI's
Some would want to be able to romance the aliens and or other of there favorite characters for obvious reasons.

The other side
for the most part is wary about all of this and is mostly okay with
having gay bi LI's as long as not everyone is gay or bi. i.e. don't
"change" the old characters.

Sounds like we all basically
agree we just are wary of each others extremes i.e. no gay li's at all
and on the flipside of the extreme coin make everybody  BI.

So as long as you are not on either extreme there is no reason for us to fight.

I really don't care how many/how few/if any at all are. It doesn't effect me. But I have a compulsive need to respond to comments I find illogical. Unfortunatly many of the people arguing for continuity, when pressed on the issues, reveal less than steller thoughts on homosexuals that make it very difficult to take their thoughts seriously afterwards.

Which is kind of depressing me.

I totally sympathize with those who just don't want to see their characters ruined, and are cautious, but not closed off about the possibility of their sexual orientation being anything other than straight. I don't want characters ruined either. I hope Bioware puts the time in to flush that portion out within the context of their character.

Walrusninja wrote...

Homosexuality,
and the likes really, are VERY raw subjects. As has been seen here,
when you get down to it, we still don't even know the facts of the
subject ie. are you born gay, straight etc. is it a decision? (anyone
who even trys to argue that one out ..... just don't start, anyone who
does will be ignored entirely fro argueing theories). So there's only so
far this can go before it errupts into "my opinion over yours".

Indeed. But what isn't a raw subject these days.

Walrusninja wrote...
I
think the community looking for the relationship variety, really should
be grateful to Bioware for what they've managed to achieve. I think
Bioware however need to be careful not to segregate the community and
incite hate, and really should just cut the focus on romance and focus
on the story but hey, I admire their guts for trying.

I think you're overestimating the amount of resources Bioware dedicates to romances. I'd say it's a ridiculously small margin of their operations. We dedicate more time to debating it than they probably do working on it.

Walrusninja wrote...
It's more a
society problem than a problem just on here. The ideas of sexuality are
spreading, but there's a LOT of "oh if you disagree you're an
intollerant homophobe" goes on too. That really helps nobody, in fact,
it incites hatred and divison, fairly so. This is a culture-shock,
massive, massive change, deal with that. It's something that'll grow
over time and through acceptance and open mindedness ON BOTH SIDES. It
isn't a matter of "hi, the government is cool with us now so accept us
or we'll look down on you". Hundreds of years of values and ideals are
being questioned and sorted here, that isn't easy.

That's because it becomes increasingly difficult to figure out who has legimate ignoroance and legimate concerns. ignorance requires teaching over time. Concerns require soothing. But when pressed on issues, more often than not, people tend to fold into "it's morally wrong!" which is a weak argument. Human beings are human beings and deserve to be treated as such.

Walrusninja wrote...
I admire
anyone who truly believes in what they are doing. I admire the old
school thinkers who are sticking to their roots and their ideals, why
shouldn't they? And I admire gays etc. who are genuine about it and just
trying to understand the world they live in and who they are. Both are
valid, so stop trying to stamp on each other. This may sound brutal, but
gays etc. especially need to be careful. As a minority, you need to
strive and fight for the respect you desire, that's just the way it is.
Forcing it breaks things and widens the gap. That does not mean "Gay
Pride" parades, the exact opposite

I'm not sure how to respond to this without being intentially mean. So I'll refrain.

Walrusninja wrote...
Oh yeah, I have absolutely
NO respect whatsoever, for non-gays etc. "standing up for" gays etc. In
doing so, you not only show that you don't believe they are capable of
standing up for themselves, which they totally are but you're also
stupidly getting wound up on one of the "sides" and making the whole
situation worse. It's like me saying "the elderly are strong and should
be respected! they can speak for themselves! ... which .... is why I'm
here speaking on their behalf!" - it makes no sense. You're showing
respect with words and a lack of it with actions, cut it out, fakes.

So what if they can speak for themselves? Obviously they need no help fighting for their rights, they're doing it every day. But why is it so hard to believe someone who isn't gay may simply believe human beings should be treated as such and not judged over something so absurd?

And you know, sometimes, it's just nice to know you have support. Human rights are not an issue unique to gays. It's a generalized feeling that people should not be treated differently over minor aspects of their being.

I do admire your attempt to be civil in your discorse and trying to calm the waters but there are a lot of connotations to your words that are not pleasent.

Modifié par WizenSlinky0, 17 mai 2011 - 08:47 .

[IoCaster]

What a trainwreck this whole subject is and it's so predictable that it makes my teeth itch. The complete story/plot of the series has taken a nose-dive into a bottomless sinkhole of stupidity and this gay romance crap is what BroWare decides to devote dev time to shoehorning into the finale? Quelle surprise!

Didn't this all get argued on the DA2 board? I wasn't paying much attention because I knew the game was going to suck, but IIRC someone made a suggestion to include a toggle or choice at the start of the game to nix the gay option. That seemed like a reasonable alternative. If it's all a question of inclusion and choice then make it an actual 'choice'.

Here ya go...

Selection screen for a new or imported character:

Male
Colonist
Sole Survivor
Gay - <yes>/<no> ?

If you choose <yes> then you get all of the dialogue options to pursue the gay romances in the game.

If you choose <no> then a flag is set and those dialogue options don't come up. Players that don't want any gay dialogue don't have to expose themselves to any homosexual content in the game. 

What's the problem with that solution?

[Eradyn]

WizenSlinky0 wrote...

Oh for the love of- I take one nap and I'm this far behind. Hopefully I can fit everybody in.

Eradyn wrote...



Because sexual orientation does not change.
It isn't a choice, it's what you are born as. You don't wake up one day
saying, "gee, today I think I'll be gay, just for the hell of it." You
are what you are. You can no more "convert" a heterosexual to
homosexuality than you can a homosexual to heterosexuality. We're
talking sexual orientation here, not someone's favorite movie or their
maturing taste in literature.

That's like saying people don't grow over time. There will always be times in our life where we re-evaluateeverything and come to different conclusions. You must also consider the fact it's not always what gender you fall for, but who the person is, specifically. Some people just captivate your senses from start to finish and gender has nothing to do with it.

I don't know if terms are just getting confused here, but are you trying to suggest that sexual orientation is a choice and not something you are born as? That someone who's gay, for example, just decided to be gay, and if they really wanted to they could turn straight? That's a slippery slope.

I'm not saying people can't explore or question their sexual orientation. That certainly wasn't the point I was trying to get at. Obviously people do, and they should, seek to learn who they are, and this realization can be a gradual learning experience. People realize what they are, and sometimes what they are is different from what role they've been filling. You don't go from being heterosexual to gay. You go from the realization you are not heterosexual but instead gay. There is a very fundamental difference.

I know I certainly did not choose to be what I am. I was born as I am, my brain is wired as it is, and I came to realize what that is. I didn't stop being one thing to become another...I was never that first thing to begin with.

Edit: Still on a phone, so wot typing is crap. I apologise if I'm not being clear; it's tough to write about something serious while in a phone and on a work break. But I hope that cleared it up a little.

Modifié par Eradyn, 17 mai 2011 - 08:55 .

[Sherbet Lemon]

ipgd wrote...

Walrusninja wrote...
[snip]

It's nice to think "let's all just get along and respect eachother!", but it's also pretty naive. Blacks in America didn't beat the worst of their prejudice by calmly accepting that hating someone for the color of their skin is a valid opinion, they got there by being really loud about it and getting enough non-black people on their side that it became socially unacceptable to be racist. Homophobia will not go away until expressing these sentiments has negative social consequences and we stop giving bigots the time of day and legitimacy. That is how it works.


But...

Oh yeah, I have absolutely NO respect whatsoever, for non-gays etc. "standing up for" gays etc. In doing so, you not only show that you don't believe they are capable of standing up for themselves, which they totally are but you're also stupidly getting wound up on one of the  "sides" and making the whole situation worse. It's like me saying "the elderly are strong and should be respected! they can speak for themselves! ... which .... is why I'm here speaking on their behalf!" - it makes no sense. You're showing respect with words and a lack of it with actions, cut it out, fakes.

Did you think about what you just wrote? Really? That's... that's not how it works.

Much agreed ipgd.

To Walrusninja: The civil rights workers who lived and died (or I should say were killed) during Freedom Summer would like a word with you.  The above comment is just too much for me to respond to respectfully.

EDIT: Wrong preposition, added a phrase.

Modifié par Village Idiot, 17 mai 2011 - 08:47 .

[jlb524]

Walrusninja wrote...

Hang on a sec, I'm not saying "don't look out for your friends". I'm saying don't stand up for somone just because they're gay. that's singlign them out for a beleif that that individual probably wants to become the norm. That isn't equality, that's segregation, and also ye, some genuinely don't realsie that they're acting like others can't stand up for themselves Sorry if I worded it poorly. kind of surprised that people took that out of it after all the rest : ?

No, segregation is treating another group of people differently (and lesser) than your own by keeping them away from your group either physically or socially.

[Master Wolf]

Ghost Warrior wrote...

Village Idiot wrote...
  What's wrong with making it seem normal? 

The fact that is not.
Whether some people approve it,and others not doesn't matter. It is not normal(standard),it is in significant minority.
Making multiple people bi on a 12 men team is wrong.

I will assume that the normal you are refering to is a mathematical normality the number of straight people is biger than the number of BI people, and that by having a large number of BI LI's in the team it will be an exageration, the problem is that you base your opinion on a numerical evaluation of our present society, however we are discussing the ME universe/society that is not only a society far in the future but also a society influenced by alien cultures, for example the existence of the asari by itself makes Bisexuality a very normal thing in ME universe because they are the most widspread society in the galaxy and all their members are BI.

Modifié par Master Wolf, 17 mai 2011 - 08:50 .

[James2912]

IoCaster wrote...

What a trainwreck this whole subject is and it's so predictable that it makes my teeth itch. The complete story/plot of the series has taken a nose-dive into a bottomless sinkhole of stupidity and this gay romance crap is what BroWare decides to devote dev time to shoehorning into the finale? Quelle surprise!

Didn't this all get argued on the DA2 board? I wasn't paying much attention because I knew the game was going to suck, but IIRC someone made a suggestion to include a toggle or choice at the start of the game to nix the gay option. That seemed like a reasonable alternative. If it's all a question of inclusion and choice then make it an actual 'choice'.

Here ya go...

Selection screen for a new or imported character:

Male
Colonist
Sole Survivor
Gay - <yes>/<no> ?

If you choose <yes> then you get all of the dialogue options to pursue the gay romances in the game.

If you choose <no> then a flag is set and those dialogue options don't come up. Players that don't want any gay dialogue don't have to expose themselves to any homosexual content in the game. 

What's the problem with that solution?

I think having a selection for that basically gay (yes or no) is perfectly reasonable.

[ipgd]

Walrusninja wrote...

Hang on a sec, I'm not saying "don't look out for your friends". I'm saying don't stand up for somone just because they're gay. That's singling them, out for a belief which that individual probably wants to become the norm, as in a not "you're different, here I'll defend you" thing. That isn't equality, that's segregation, and also ye, some genuinely don't realise that they're acting like others can't stand up for themselves. Sorry if I worded it poorly. kind of surprised that people took that out of it after all the rest : ?

I'm sure it's all very noble and all in your head but that's... not how civil rights works.

I presume you also aren't gay, so you aren't exactly in a position to rag on people standing up for a cause that has nothing to do with you, either. I'm sure gay people can handle themselves with you white knighting them to save them from their white knights?

[JetsoverEverything]

IoCaster wrote...

What a trainwreck this whole subject is and it's so predictable that it makes my teeth itch. The complete story/plot of the series has taken a nose-dive into a bottomless sinkhole of stupidity and this gay romance crap is what BroWare decides to devote dev time to shoehorning into the finale? Quelle surprise!

Didn't this all get argued on the DA2 board? I wasn't paying much attention because I knew the game was going to suck, but IIRC someone made a suggestion to include a toggle or choice at the start of the game to nix the gay option. That seemed like a reasonable alternative. If it's all a question of inclusion and choice then make it an actual 'choice'.

Here ya go...

Selection screen for a new or imported character:

Male
Colonist
Sole Survivor
Gay - <yes>/<no> ?

If you choose <yes> then you get all of the dialogue options to pursue the gay romances in the game.

If you choose <no> then a flag is set and those dialogue options don't come up. Players that don't want any gay dialogue don't have to expose themselves to any homosexual content in the game. 

What's the problem with that solution?

people will still complain.

[Russalka]

Except that a turning on or off button stems also from bigotry, among other things.

[Walrusninja]

Ok jlb524, so there's nothing unusual whatsoever about jumping in to defend someone just because they're gay? In no way does it leave a "they're different, leave them alone" image? You'd do that for absolutely anyone would you? It couldn't possibly give a "he can't stand up for himself" idea or leave them feeling that you think they're weak?

Here I am standing up for individuals keeping to their own beliefs and the idea of gay rights, and the idea that gays are just as strong, and being attacked for it. Awesome. Maybe this is why so few people even try to understand or get involved?

Modifié par Walrusninja, 17 mai 2011 - 08:53 .

[James2912]

Selection screen for a new or imported character:

Male
Colonist
Sole Survivor
Gay - <yes>/<no> ?

If you choose <yes> then you get all of the dialogue options to pursue the gay romances in the game.

If you choose <no> then a flag is set and those dialogue options don't come up. Players that don't want any gay dialogue don't have to expose themselves to any homosexual content in the game. 

What's the problem with that solution?





[/quote]

people will still complain.[/quote]

True but all Bioware can do is be reasonable. And this is quite reasonable.