6696 réponses à ce sujet

[James2912]

LiquidGrape wrote...

James2912 wrote...

To me its no different then choosing gender in the beginning of the game but whatever.

Well, what I think it comes down to is this:

Personally, I don't think there would be anything wrong with ticking a box during character creation to establish the sexuality of ones Shepard.
In fact, that might lead to some interesting context-sensitive dialogue on the subject, seeing as you could inform the game of another facet of your character.
Say, a lesbian Shepard discussing women in the company of a straight male squad member.
Done right, that could definitely add some more substance to the characters and relationships in the game.

What would be less appropriate is if this box were to function as a censor, omitting content of which any particular player might disapprove.

And I would completely agree! For example James Vega turns out to be an exclusively gay characters it would be wrong to edit him out of playthroughs. I'm mostly talking about old characters like Garrus. But if there is no ninjamancing no problem.

[SennenScale]

Okay, let's ALL be super clear. No one likes being ninjamanced. Not even if you genuinely like the character, because being ninjamanced takes a good deal of the fun out of romances.


Bioware making ninjamances is a problem across the board, so let's fix it for everyone. Having Shepard be the one to bring it up is the best solution.

[ipgd]

IoCaster wrote...

ipgd wrote...


As to the gay toggle: no, because it legitimizes bigotry. Concession to prejudice is unacceptable.

Bullsh!t, it's about choice. You want a choice and maybe someone else wants to have a choice as well. The only thing no choice legitimizes is an authoritarian worldview. Just because someone else makes a contrary choice to your preference doesn't make them a bigot. You're taking this to a level consistent with reeducation camps and/or sensitivity training. Someone doesn't conform to your way of thinking and they're supposedly mentally unbalanced or deficient? There's something wrong with them, so let's label them homophobic, misogynist, etc,..

What?

Besides the fact it's not even "my preference", it's a pointless change, because it's a choice that already exists in the game. The choice already exists in a capacity that is far more natural. The only motivation for changing the way this same choice is made is to accommodate people who are uncomfortable with homosexuality, which has the implication that their concerns are legitimate. It is an unacceptable change purely on principle.

[MACharlie1]

IoCaster wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...

Ghost Warrior wrote...

IoCaster wrote...

JetsoverEverything wrote...

IoCaster wrote...

What a trainwreck this whole subject is and it's so predictable that it makes my teeth itch. The complete story/plot of the series has taken a nose-dive into a bottomless sinkhole of stupidity and this gay romance crap is what BroWare decides to devote dev time to shoehorning into the finale? Quelle surprise!

Didn't this all get argued on the DA2 board? I wasn't paying much attention because I knew the game was going to suck, but IIRC someone made a suggestion to include a toggle or choice at the start of the game to nix the gay option. That seemed like a reasonable alternative. If it's all a question of inclusion and choice then make it an actual 'choice'.

Here ya go...

Selection screen for a new or imported character:

Male
Colonist
Sole Survivor
Gay - <yes>/<no> ?

If you choose <yes> then you get all of the dialogue options to pursue the gay romances in the game.

If you choose <no> then a flag is set and those dialogue options don't come up. Players that don't want any gay dialogue don't have to expose themselves to any homosexual content in the game. 

What's the problem with that solution?

people will still complain.

About what exactly? Complain about choice?

They find that idea insulting for some reasons.

In that case I want a black person toggle. It isn't normal for a black man to be so educated as Jacob or Anderson are. With this toggle, their complexion automatically turns into the perfect anglo-saxan that I feel fits the reality better. <_<

Right because sex orientation and skin complexion are synonymous. Sorry, but that's pretty damn silly.

Let me spin a different way: a black toggle that prevents any romantic dialog between my white FemShep and Jacob. Taking a page out of a developers twitter. 

[Ryzaki]

SennenScale wrote...

Okay, let's ALL be super clear. No one likes being ninjamanced. Not even if you genuinely like the character, because being ninjamanced takes a good deal of the fun out of romances.


Bioware making ninjamances is a problem across the board, so let's fix it for everyone. Having Shepard be the one to bring it up is the best solution.

This. 

Ninjamances across the board need to be fixed. 

Not same sex romances being only reaceable through a toggle. 

[M-Sinistrari]

SennenScale wrote...

Okay, let's ALL be super clear. No one likes being ninjamanced. Not even if you genuinely like the character, because being ninjamanced takes a good deal of the fun out of romances.


Bioware making ninjamances is a problem across the board, so let's fix it for everyone. Having Shepard be the one to bring it up is the best solution.

At this point I think everyone's kinda glossing in ninjaromances as chosen romances.

[Servo to the bitter end]

Ghost Warrior wrote...

This one is strictly subjective. You see,I can't comprehend your approval of homosexuality,you can't comprehend my disapproval. Let's leave it at that.

...

You don't think that when some character doesn't show even the slightest indication of bisexuality during two games,but gets in bed with one of his sex in third game breakes continuity? Oh,I believe it does.

...

If they were bi/gay,why weren't they able to express,but now suddenly are? "better late than ever" doesn't cut it.

It's not subjective. There's no rational basis for your feelings. Not all opinions are made equal, and it's quite possible to be flat out wrong about something. You're wrong about this. There's no justification for denying someone's equality or humanity for reasons of race, gender, gender identity  - anything like that.

Schroedinger's Kaidan is just as continuity breaking. Alive? Dead? What is it?

And yeah - better late than never. Shepard is one character. S/he can be gay or straight or in between.

Modifié par TommyServo, 17 mai 2011 - 09:31 .

[JediMB]

Therefore_I_Am wrote...

Giving both s/s and m/f choices in the same dialog wheel is a bad idea from a marketing standpoint. There are people who do not want to see something that doesn't make sense with the Shepard-character they are playing within their dialog choices, especially if the character they are talking to have always been a specific sexuality and didn't present such a choice in previous games. It will make alot of players uncomfortable. And ME3's sale will probably suffer because of it. It needs to cater to the majority, while having new characters that can be possibly bi, but not the older ones.
Now I'm not against it, but I'm just saying that it made many people tilt their head in DA2 when bioware did this sort of thing.

Giving both Paragon and Renegade choices in the same dialogue wheel is a bad idea from a marketing standpoint. There are people who do not want to see something that doesn't make sense with the Shepard-character they are playing within their dialogue choices, especially if the character they are talking to is someone they have always disliked and didn't act pleasantly in previous games. [...]

:innocent:

[harktag]

Ghost Warrior wrote...

If they were bi/gay,why weren't they able to express,but now suddenly are? "better late than ever" doesn't cut it.

To be fair, this happens all the time in real life. Several of my friends dated the opposite gender for years, before they realized that they also were interested in the same gender too. A couple even realized that they prefered the same gender - my ex-boyfriend being one of them.

[James2912]

Ryzaki wrote...

SennenScale wrote...

Okay, let's ALL be super clear. No one likes being ninjamanced. Not even if you genuinely like the character, because being ninjamanced takes a good deal of the fun out of romances.


Bioware making ninjamances is a problem across the board, so let's fix it for everyone. Having Shepard be the one to bring it up is the best solution.

This. 

Ninjamances across the board need to be fixed. 

Not same sex romances being only reaceable through a toggle. 

I agree. The other idea is an alternative that I see offends you guys, even though its not where I'm coming from. But if there is no ninjamancing no problem. 

[ExplosiveMage]

im less concerned about changes in sexual preferences but more concerned that there are going to be new LIs in ME3...only way I can see a new LI making sense is if they are a permanent squadmate...and I dont want new permanent squadmates to take the place of my ME2 team (cuz face it, the ME1 team is basically back, sans Wrex who we will most likely get as a temp squadmate)...

Only way I can see it working is for new LIs to exist for either brand new playthroughs (since they wont know/care about the characters anyways) or if you are one of those who let all your teammates die perhaps they fill out your team...

[Therefore_I_Am]

Russalka wrote...

I ask again, what is wrong with just saying no or ignoring the homosexuality?

I have no problem ignoring it, but tell that to the millions of other heterosexual fans who don't visit the forums or get the latest scoop from Hudson on the subject. Imagine their reaction when their heterosexual character has the option to make advances on Garrus or Kaiden. This makes their character automatically Bi in ME3, and many people don't want that.
Maybe there can be an alternate mechanism instead of blurting it out on the dialog wheel, like an option of what you can be in the beginning of the game.

Modifié par Therefore_I_Am, 17 mai 2011 - 09:36 .

[Centauri2002]

Great. So we've agreed. No ninjamancing!

If there is no ninjamancing, there should be no problem with a couple of extra bisexual options in the game, right?

[ipgd]

Therefore_I_Am wrote...

Russalka wrote...

I ask again, what is wrong with just saying no or ignoring the homosexuality?

I have no problem ignoring it, but tell that to the millions of other heterosexual fans who don't visit the forums or get the latest scoop from Hudson on the subject. Imagine their reaction when their heterosexual character has the option to make advances on Garrus or Kaiden. This makes their character automatically Bi in ME3, and many people don't want that.
Maybe there can be an alternate mechanism instead of blurting it out on the dialog wheel, like an option of what you can be in the beginning of the game.

No it doesn't?

If you never pursue any of those options, your Shepard is never bisexual in the same way Paragon Shepard isn't a Renegade just because those options exist.

[ADLegend21]

IoCaster wrote...

Right because sex orientation and skin complexion are synonymous. Sorry, but that's pretty damn silly.

They might not be synonymous, but they're both natural and can't be chosen. You don't se people going "Oh I'll be black today and Asian tomorrow" like you won't see people saying "Oh I'll be straight today, bi tomorrow and gay next week".

[MACharlie1]

I honestly don't think ninjamancing is even a problem for male romance interests.

Jacob is very difficult to get a romance with and even more difficult to maintain. Garrus is impossible to ninjamance. And Thane's marked crystal clear. Drawing from other games, I can't remember Kaidans. But I remember Carths which was humorous and obvious also (is that a promise? After he threatens to spank her) The only one I can think of is possibly Anders which sounds like someone wasn't paying attention to the icon.

[James2912]

centauri2002 wrote...

Great. So we've agreed. No ninjamancing!

If there is no ninjamancing, there should be no problem with a couple of extra bisexual options in the game, right?

From my perspective no there is no problem at all. 

[IoCaster]

ipgd wrote...

IoCaster wrote...

ipgd wrote...


As to the gay toggle: no, because it legitimizes bigotry. Concession to prejudice is unacceptable.

Bullsh!t, it's about choice. You want a choice and maybe someone else wants to have a choice as well. The only thing no choice legitimizes is an authoritarian worldview. Just because someone else makes a contrary choice to your preference doesn't make them a bigot. You're taking this to a level consistent with reeducation camps and/or sensitivity training. Someone doesn't conform to your way of thinking and they're supposedly mentally unbalanced or deficient? There's something wrong with them, so let's label them homophobic, misogynist, etc,..

What?

Besides the fact it's not even "my preference", it's a pointless change, because it's a choice that already exists in the game. The choice already exists in a capacity that is far more natural. The only motivation for changing the way this same choice is made is to accommodate people who are uncomfortable with homosexuality, which has the implication that their concerns are legitimate. It is an unacceptable change purely on principle.

Again I call bullsh!t. You've made the case that choice is an important component of changing the game for your benefit. Now you seem to want to claim that the concern of an opposing viewpoint is not legitimate. I'm sure that you've got a mirror handy. Go ahead and take a glance at it.

[sevach]

SennenScale wrote...

Okay, let's ALL be super clear. No one likes being ninjamanced. Not even if you genuinely like the character, because being ninjamanced takes a good deal of the fun out of romances.


Bioware making ninjamances is a problem across the board, so let's fix it for everyone. Having Shepard be the one to bring it up is the best solution.

Yep, it happens with Tali and others, it's just not comfortable...

[SennenScale]

Therefore_I_Am wrote...


I have no problem ignoring it, but tell that to the millions of other heterosexual fans who don't visit the forums or get the latest scoop from Hudson on the subject. Imagine their reaction when their heterosexual character has the option to make advances on Garrus or Kaiden. This makes their character automatically Bi in ME3, and many people don't want that.
Maybe there can be an alternate mechanism instead of blurting it out on the dialog wheel, like an option of what you can be in the beginning of the game.

Your character isn't bi just because it's possible for a Shepard to be bi, though. To use an ingame example, the existence of paragon options on the dialogue wheel do not make a renegade Shepard not a renegade, and the same for renegade options for paragons.

[Cootie]

ADLegend21 wrote...

IoCaster wrote...

Right because sex orientation and skin complexion are synonymous. Sorry, but that's pretty damn silly.

They might not be synonymous, but they're both natural and can't be chosen. You don't se people going "Oh I'll be black today and Asian tomorrow" like you won't see people saying "Oh I'll be straight today, bi tomorrow and gay next week".

And you obviously know all about sexual relations and some socioeconomics the moment you are born and there is no such thing as self-discovery.

[Ninja Mage]

I don't see the problem with ninjamances. If Garrus Ninjamances his male shep oh boo hoo. He just says ," Im not interested," and the game continues.

[ipgd]

IoCaster wrote...

Again I call bullsh!t. You've made the case that choice is an important component of changing the game for your benefit. Now you seem to want to claim that the concern of an opposing viewpoint is not legitimate. I'm sure that you've got a mirror handy. Go ahead and take a glance at it.

It should not be legitimized by Bioware, no.

Again, choice has nothing to do with it, because it's still the same exact choice. All this change would do is move the point at which you make the choice. It's a purely political decision which I object to on political grounds.

[JediMB]

Therefore_I_Am wrote...

Russalka wrote...

I ask again, what is wrong with just saying no or ignoring the homosexuality?

I have no problem ignoring it, but tell that to the millions of other heterosexual fans who don't visit the forums or get the latest scoop from Hudson on the subject. Imagine their reaction when their heterosexual character has the option to make advances on Garrus or Kaiden. This makes their character automatically Bi in ME3, and many people don't want that.
Maybe there can be an alternate mechanism instead of blurting it out on the dialog wheel, like an option of what you can be in the beginning of the game.

Man, that must make FemShep simultaneously bi- and heterosexual, somehow. Since she has both the option to romance women and to say that she only likes men.

It's like Schrödinger's sexuality.

(Protip: your Shepard is only defined by the options you choose, and not by the available ones that you don't.)