6696 réponses à ce sujet

[Special_Agent_Goodwrench]

Therefore_I_Am wrote...

Russalka wrote...

I ask again, what is wrong with just saying no or ignoring the homosexuality?

I have no problem ignoring it, but tell that to the millions of other heterosexual fans who don't visit the forums or get the latest scoop from Hudson on the subject. Imagine their reaction when their heterosexual character has the option to make advances on Garrus or Kaiden. This makes their character automatically Bi in ME3, and many people don't want that.
Maybe there can be an alternate mechanism instead of blurting it out on the dialog wheel, like an option of what you can be in the beginning of the game.

FemShep can make advances on Liara. Now, I hear some people say "But Liara isn't really a woman!", but tell that to a casual fan or somebody who desn't follow ME lore with religious fervor, or just plain doesn't care.

HAVING an option is NOT the same as BEING FORCED to use that option. Just leave the bloody toggles and whatnot out of the game. Can't believe pople even have to argue over this.

[SennenScale]

MACharlie1 wrote...

The only one I can think of is possibly Anders which sounds like someone wasn't paying attention to the icon.

Picking a certain diplomatic option in a certain convo apparently results in him flirting with you. I never actually had that happen to me as I play a snarky Hawke, but seems like a mislabel. Bioware could have done better there.

[VoidCabbage]

IoCaster wrote...

ipgd wrote...


As to the gay toggle: no, because it legitimizes bigotry. Concession to prejudice is unacceptable.

Bullsh!t, it's about choice. You want a choice and maybe someone else wants to have a choice as well. The only thing no choice legitimizes is an authoritarian worldview. Just because someone else makes a contrary choice to your preference doesn't make them a bigot. You're taking this to a level consistent with reeducation camps and/or sensitivity training. Someone doesn't conform to your way of thinking and they're supposedly mentally unbalanced or deficient? There's something wrong with them, so let's label them homophobic, misogynist, etc,..

The toggle thing only becomes an issue when its for just homosexuality or bisexuality. If we were given a choice for all relationships then it becomes a non issue. Although a new arises in that its suddenly breaking the fourth wall asking you who you want to be straight or gay whatever. 

In Mass Effect you control Shepard but you do not control the world around him, and changing that would be a continuity stab in the face for all that worry about that.

Also prejudice implies that someone has formed an opinion without truly understanding something. I`ve never met anyone who supports forming opinions before understanding something. So your statement about authoritarian/reeducation camps is invalid.

[bluuberg]

Being rational and turning down an advancement from a potential admirer? That only works on chicks, if a guy did that I'd have to punch him one proper like in the face to show him what's what.

Or so these people would have me believe, to protect their manly man manliness or whatever...

Modifié par blue.o7, 17 mai 2011 - 09:47 .

[Ryzaki]

SennenScale wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...

The only one I can think of is possibly Anders which sounds like someone wasn't paying attention to the icon.

Picking a certain diplomatic option in a certain convo apparently results in him flirting with you. I never actually had that happen to me as I play a snarky Hawke, but seems like a mislabel. Bioware could have done better there.

Indeed the diplomatic option should've been labeled with a heart in that conversation. 

[IoCaster]

MACharlie1 wrote...

IoCaster wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...

Ghost Warrior wrote...

IoCaster wrote...

JetsoverEverything wrote...

IoCaster wrote...

What a trainwreck this whole subject is and it's so predictable that it makes my teeth itch. The complete story/plot of the series has taken a nose-dive into a bottomless sinkhole of stupidity and this gay romance crap is what BroWare decides to devote dev time to shoehorning into the finale? Quelle surprise!

Didn't this all get argued on the DA2 board? I wasn't paying much attention because I knew the game was going to suck, but IIRC someone made a suggestion to include a toggle or choice at the start of the game to nix the gay option. That seemed like a reasonable alternative. If it's all a question of inclusion and choice then make it an actual 'choice'.

Here ya go...

Selection screen for a new or imported character:

Male
Colonist
Sole Survivor
Gay - <yes>/<no> ?

If you choose <yes> then you get all of the dialogue options to pursue the gay romances in the game.

If you choose <no> then a flag is set and those dialogue options don't come up. Players that don't want any gay dialogue don't have to expose themselves to any homosexual content in the game. 

What's the problem with that solution?

people will still complain.

About what exactly? Complain about choice?

They find that idea insulting for some reasons.

In that case I want a black person toggle. It isn't normal for a black man to be so educated as Jacob or Anderson are. With this toggle, their complexion automatically turns into the perfect anglo-saxan that I feel fits the reality better. <_<

Right because sex orientation and skin complexion are synonymous. Sorry, but that's pretty damn silly.

Let me spin a different way: a black toggle that prevents any romantic dialog between my white FemShep and Jacob. Taking a page out of a developers twitter. 

Have I or anyone else suggested that? If not then I suggest you take that straw man and pitch into the nearest 'not-relevant to this discussion trashbin".

[MACharlie1]

SennenScale wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...

The only one I can think of is possibly Anders which sounds like someone wasn't paying attention to the icon.

Picking a certain diplomatic option in a certain convo apparently results in him flirting with you. I never actually had that happen to me as I play a snarky Hawke, but seems like a mislabel. Bioware could have done better there.

I've only two playthroughs of DA2 where one romanced Anders (so it wasn't a problem) and the other was just a plain **** to him. But I can't say that because of the way something was in DA2 that means it's going to be ME3 since they are two totally separate teams with different ideas and motives and lore to work with. 

[Tantum Dic Verbo]

Therefore_I_Am wrote...

Russalka wrote...

I ask again, what is wrong with just saying no or ignoring the homosexuality?

I have no problem ignoring it, but tell that to the millions of other heterosexual fans who don't visit the forums or get the latest scoop from Hudson on the subject. Imagine their reaction when their heterosexual character has the option to make advances on Garrus or Kaiden. This makes their character automatically Bi in ME3, and many people don't want that.
Maybe there can be an alternate mechanism instead of blurting it out on the dialog wheel, like an option of what you can be in the beginning of the game.

Well, the more effectively they firewall the homosexuality, the more likely I am to buy the game.  I don't spend my entertainment dollars on depictions of homosexuality.  I know, I know: unenlightened and all that.  I'm a philistine.  My gay college buddies couldn't even convince me to watch Torch Song Trilogy.  It's not a theme I care to address in my entertainment.

That said, I don't take it personally.  If they make an RPG with characters and themes I don't like, I find something else to do. 

[Siansonea]

Ah, the toggle. The please-give-me-two-layers-of-protection-from-accidental-gay-exposure plea. Heavy sigh.

[SennenScale]

Ninja Mage wrote...

I don't see the problem with ninjamances. If Garrus Ninjamances his male shep oh boo hoo. He just says ," Im not interested," and the game continues.

I think for a couple of romances, once a romance begins you can't say no. That was mostly a problem with female LIs, though.

[Ryzaki]

...You have a DA icon.

>_>

I love when people say "I'm not buying a game with gay in it." and then have a DA or DA2 icon.  No offense but it just...really? It disrupted your DA game that much?  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 mai 2011 - 09:49 .

[JediMB]

SennenScale wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...

The only one I can think of is possibly Anders which sounds like someone wasn't paying attention to the icon.

Picking a certain diplomatic option in a certain convo apparently results in him flirting with you. I never actually had that happen to me as I play a snarky Hawke, but seems like a mislabel. Bioware could have done better there.

It's more a matter of people needing to chill the **** out than BioWare making a mistake.

I gladly picked the heartbreak option because Anders expected me to be honest with him, and so I was. Too bad for him that it wasn't the response he wanted, but a couple of Rivalry points certainly aren't going to kill me.

[theSteeeeeels]

wow 86 pages in 1 day in a thread about romances

tells u everything about this forum

[Cartims]

Siansonea II wrote...

Ah, the toggle. The please-give-me-two-layers-of-protection-from-accidental-gay-exposure plea. Heavy sigh.

Indeed, this is progress, I think not...

[Cootie]

IoCaster wrote...

Have I or anyone else suggested that?
If not then I suggest you take that straw man and pitch into the nearest
'not-relevant to this discussion trashbin".

You have suggested censoring people out of a game. That is what it is.
If you cannot take the fact that the example you provided could be broken simply by changing the targets it is applied to, well, your social skills are in question.

You should consider your semi-aggressive attitude before attempting to argue like this. It solves nothing and it makes you sound like a big baby, in my opinion.

Drink some tea, come back later when you're rational.

[MACharlie1]

IoCaster wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...

IoCaster wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...

Ghost Warrior wrote...

IoCaster wrote...

JetsoverEverything wrote...

IoCaster wrote...

What a trainwreck this whole subject is and it's so predictable that it makes my teeth itch. The complete story/plot of the series has taken a nose-dive into a bottomless sinkhole of stupidity and this gay romance crap is what BroWare decides to devote dev time to shoehorning into the finale? Quelle surprise!

Didn't this all get argued on the DA2 board? I wasn't paying much attention because I knew the game was going to suck, but IIRC someone made a suggestion to include a toggle or choice at the start of the game to nix the gay option. That seemed like a reasonable alternative. If it's all a question of inclusion and choice then make it an actual 'choice'.

Here ya go...

Selection screen for a new or imported character:

Male
Colonist
Sole Survivor
Gay - <yes>/<no> ?

If you choose <yes> then you get all of the dialogue options to pursue the gay romances in the game.

If you choose <no> then a flag is set and those dialogue options don't come up. Players that don't want any gay dialogue don't have to expose themselves to any homosexual content in the game. 

What's the problem with that solution?

people will still complain.

About what exactly? Complain about choice?

They find that idea insulting for some reasons.

In that case I want a black person toggle. It isn't normal for a black man to be so educated as Jacob or Anderson are. With this toggle, their complexion automatically turns into the perfect anglo-saxan that I feel fits the reality better. <_<

Right because sex orientation and skin complexion are synonymous. Sorry, but that's pretty damn silly.

Let me spin a different way: a black toggle that prevents any romantic dialog between my white FemShep and Jacob. Taking a page out of a developers twitter. 

Have I or anyone else suggested that? If not then I suggest you take that straw man and pitch into the nearest 'not-relevant to this discussion trashbin".

I'm trying to give you perspective of what the proposal sounds likes. Of course you haven't said that - no sane person would suggest that. I can come up with a dozen other toggles that might offend people. No females in the military for instance - they all have to be wearing skirts and be civilians. No cursing, no explosions. No kiss whatsoever - relationships have to be chaste since they aren't married. 

[Russalka]

blue.o7 wrote...

Being rational and turning down an advancement from a potential admirer? That only works on chicks, if a guy did that I'd have to punch him one proper like in the face to show him what's what.

Or so these people would have me believe, to protect their manly man manliness or whatever...

Double-standards rule the world.

[sevach]

ipgd wrote...

IoCaster wrote...

Again I call bullsh!t. You've made the case that choice is an important component of changing the game for your benefit. Now you seem to want to claim that the concern of an opposing viewpoint is not legitimate. I'm sure that you've got a mirror handy. Go ahead and take a glance at it.

It should not be legitimized by Bioware, no.

Again, choice has nothing to do with it, because it's still the same exact choice. All this change would do is move the point at which you make the choice. It's a purely political decision which I object to on political grounds.

You are getting the choice to play the game you want...

[Ghost Warrior]

TommyServo wrote...



It's not subjective. There's no rational basis for your feelings. Not all opinions are made equal, and it's quite possible to be flat out wrong about something. You're wrong about this. There's no justification for denying someone's equality or humanity for reasons of race, gender, gender identity  - anything like that.

And I still think you are wrong. And I wasn't denying anyone's humanity,I just don't think homosexuality is "normal",and basic biology confirms that. Call this is a stupid reason(as I know you will),but it's enough for me. By the way,haven't you ever faced something that felt wrong,although you weren't quite sure what reason for that may be? I can understand a man loving another man,but strictly as a friend. Them two having romantic/sexual relationship is something I can't see as something normal. But that doesn't mean I find them less worthy then me,some of them may be smarter and more capable than I am. I just don't like that major part of their personality,and I have every right not to.

And yeah - better late than never. Shepard is one character. S/he can be gay or straight or in between.

That's no answer.

[Centauri2002]

theSteeeeeels wrote...

wow 86 pages in 1 day in a thread about romances

tells u everything about this forum

You're adding to the post count, you know. 

[VoidCabbage]

IoCaster wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...

IoCaster wrote...

Right because sex orientation and skin complexion are synonymous. Sorry, but that's pretty damn silly.

Let me spin a different way: a black toggle that prevents any romantic dialog between my white FemShep and Jacob. Taking a page out of a developers twitter. 

Have I or anyone else suggested that? If not then I suggest you take that straw man and pitch into the nearest 'not-relevant to this discussion trashbin".

They are not synonymous. But they are similar in that they are both uncontrolled by the person and that there is a segment of society uncomfortable with them.

I think this is a perfectly fine argument. There are infact people who think black people shouldn't date white people so should we now give them the option to customize their mass effect experience to fit with their world view?

EDIT: Spelling.

Modifié par VoidCabbage, 17 mai 2011 - 09:59 .

[JediMB]

Ryzaki wrote...

SennenScale wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...

The only one I can think of is possibly Anders which sounds like someone wasn't paying attention to the icon.

Picking a certain diplomatic option in a certain convo apparently results in him flirting with you. I never actually had that happen to me as I play a snarky Hawke, but seems like a mislabel. Bioware could have done better there.

Indeed the diplomatic option should've been labeled with a heart in that conversation. 

But the diplomatic option wasn't a flirt...