6696 réponses à ce sujet

[AdmiralCheez]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Well they kind of did that with Anders but surely the solution to awkwardness in a game is to remove it, rather than add more.

No.  After Liara, Shiala, and the consort, you deserve to suffer.

I've played nice with your fanservicey space lesbians so far, buddy.  Now it's your turn.  You, as the player, must help me indulge in my dirty yaoi fantasies.

Also, all the men should run around in very tight and revealing outfights.  Tighter than Jacob's, with a lot more skin showing than Thane.

And male strippers.  Blue omnisexual male strippers in space that constantly hit on you regardless of species or gender.

No, I don't want this to actually happen, but I want you to imagine it.  Maybe then you will empathize with the straight female gamer a little.  And then perhaps one m/m LI will seem pretty tame in comparison.

This post is not intended to sound bitter.  Giggle a little.

And I'm not even a straight female gamer.  I like ******.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 18 mai 2011 - 03:32 .

[M-Sinistrari]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Objecting to the toggle is tanatamount to hypocrisy to the extreme. What happened to we only want to be able to play the game our way and it doesn't affect your personal canon Shepard to let us play a gay Shepard? Seems that should cut both ways. It doesn't affect your game where you get to have m/m and he gets to play his way. There should be no objection.

I thought this was a valid point worth discussion considering how many times I saw it stated frequently in the Fight for the Love thread that people only wanted to play the game their way and that wasn't going to effect how others played theirs.

With some of the reactions towards this point, it does make me wonder if that previous sentiment of everyone play thier own way was just empty air and now it's everyone has to play my way.

[thatguy212]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Well they kind of did that with Anders but surely the solution to awkwardness in a game is to remove it, rather than add more.

No.  After Liara, Shiala, and the consort, you deserve to suffer.

I've played nice with your fanservicey space lesbians so far, buddy.  Now it's your turn.  You, as the player, must help me indulge in my dirty yaoi fantasies.

Also, all the men should run around in very tight and revealing outfits.  Tighter than Jacob's, with a lot more skin showing than Thane.

And male strippers.  Blue omnisexual male strippers in space that constantly hit on you regardless of species or gender.

No, I don't want this to actually happen, but I want you to imagine it.  Maybe then you will empathize with the straight female gamer a little.  And then perhaps one m/m LI will seem pretty tame in comparison.

This post is not intended to sound bitter.  Giggle a little.

And I'm not even a straight female gamer.  I like ******.

Only if shepard gets to pick between the liquid snake look and the devil may cry 3 dante look

[Ryzaki]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Not to mention you were warned not to ingest.

I did, anyway.

Totally worth four hours in the emergency room.

YUP.  DINOSAUR SEX AND MURDER ARE A-OKAY, BUT WE MUST FLEE FROM OTHER MEN'S DICKS.

 

Indeed. FLEE FROM THE GAY! 

Ugh. Meanwhile female characters have to deal with the asari consort feeling them up. <_<  

mrsph wrote...

I was just rude to the damn consort, I didn't want to have sex with her.

I think something didn't translate properly.

Surprise sex that you didn't know you wanted. 

Ah my poor gay renegade Shepard. Very very confused was he. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 mai 2011 - 03:35 .

[InvincibleHero]

ipgd wrote...

I don't think people should be forced to be exposed to material they find objectionable. What about bestiality if it was included without BW saying anything? You think people would be rightly angry? I do. Some people potentially don't want to see male nudity.

You talk about straw men...

Yeah partially, but both are about sexuality and are more relational then being Asian vs being gay.. I was going to put disclaimer in paraenthesis.

[Siansonea]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Well they kind of did that with Anders but surely the solution to awkwardness in a game is to remove it, rather than add more.

No.  After Liara, Shiala, and the consort, you deserve to suffer.

I've played nice with your fanservicey space lesbians so far, buddy.  Now it's your turn.  You, as the player, must help me indulge in my dirty yaoi fantasies.

Also, all the men should run around in very tight and revealing outfights.  Tighter than Jacob's, with a lot more skin showing than Thane.

And male strippers.  Blue omnisexual male strippers in space that constantly hit on you regardless of species or gender.

No, I don't want this to actually happen, but I want you to imagine it.  Maybe then you will empathize with the straight female gamer a little.  And then perhaps one m/m LI will seem pretty tame in comparison.

This post is not intended to sound bitter.  Giggle a little.

And I'm not even a straight female gamer.  I like ******.

I'm not into yaoi (I think it's some kind of anime thing? Don't know.) but I'm +1 for male strippers, tight outfits and man-skin. As long as they're human. So not into alien dudes.

[Siansonea]

This is the BioWare Social Network. We got more straw men than the Wizard of Oz. Nobody light a match...

[Jedi Master of Orion]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Well they kind of did that with Anders but surely the solution to awkwardness in a game is to remove it, rather than add more.

No.  After Liara, Shiala, and the consort, you deserve to suffer.

I've played nice with your fanservicey space lesbians so far, buddy.  Now it's your turn.  You, as the player, must help me indulge in my dirty yaoi fantasies.

Also, all the men should run around in very tight and revealing outfights.  Tighter than Jacob's, with a lot more skin showing than Thane.

And male strippers.  Blue omnisexual male strippers in space that constantly hit on you regardless of species or gender.

No, I don't want this to actually happen, but I want you to imagine it.  Maybe then you will empathize with the straight female gamer a little.  And then perhaps one m/m LI will seem pretty tame in comparison.

This post is not intended to sound bitter.  Giggle a little.

And I'm not even a straight female gamer.  I like ******.

You know I wasn't talking about a Male/Male love interest character. I was just talking about awkwardness.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 18 mai 2011 - 03:41 .

[InvincibleHero]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

@InvincibleHero: Once upon a time, race and gender were also "hot button issues."  So was religion.

Hell, they still are in some places...

Anyway, if a dude hits on you, you say the same thing you'd say to a girl that wasn't to your liking: "No thanks, not interested."

Seriously, how hard is it to just click bottom-right every once in a while?

Sex is always going to remain. It is something that should be private for the most part. I don't think most people care what people do in their own bedrooms. If they saw two men sexing up on a street corner then people are going to be rightly upset. BW needs to have care in how it is depcited and be non-judgemental in any potentially hot button issue.

Like I said that should be it, but the game proselitizes and you know it. This is also after you spare his life. It was definitely too heavy-handed.

How hard is it to you know reference obviously active flags and never have it come up to begin with? They wanted to put a slant on an issue agree or not I, don't think it is something that should be done.

Modifié par InvincibleHero, 18 mai 2011 - 03:46 .

[jakal66]

I think some people are going to be disappointed when they actually play the game and the same sex romances are totally watered down...in comparison to the others.In my opinion it's ok but being a heterosexual male I don't want a NPC or squad mate (male of course ) hitting on me all the time because that would just bother me...so give us the option of not being interested in the conversation quickly from the beginning...

If the character's persona or trait is well...how can i put it...? is too annoying for my taste then I won't use him as much...but still I wouldn't come here to complain about it...I think in a way it's fair for everyone but just don't slap it in my face and feed it to me by force...hehe...

Modifié par jakal66, 18 mai 2011 - 03:47 .

[ipgd]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Yeah partially, but both are about sexuality and are more relational then being Asian vs being gay.. I was going to put disclaimer in paraenthesis.

So, depictions of homosexuality are closer to depictions of sex with another non-sapient species incapable of giving informed consent...? I don't think you can escape this faux pas, guy.

People need to be exposed to objectional content so objectional content stops being objectional. There was a time where showing interracial kissing on television was hugely controversial -- were we to go back in a time machine, would you advocate that interracial romances be hidden or marginalized or what have you because it might be offensive? Or would you see that as a concession to bigotry, an implicit endorsement of a sentiment we have an obligation to help eradicate through education and, yes, exposure in media?

[paptschik]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Well they kind of did that with Anders but surely the solution to awkwardness in a game is to remove it, rather than add more.

No.  After Liara, Shiala, and the consort, you deserve to suffer.

I've played nice with your fanservicey space lesbians so far, buddy.  Now it's your turn.  You, as the player, must help me indulge in my dirty yaoi fantasies.

Also, all the men should run around in very tight and revealing outfights.  Tighter than Jacob's, with a lot more skin showing than Thane.

And male strippers.  Blue omnisexual male strippers in space that constantly hit on you regardless of species or gender.

No, I don't want this to actually happen, but I want you to imagine it.  Maybe then you will empathize with the straight female gamer a little.  And then perhaps one m/m LI will seem pretty tame in comparison.

This post is not intended to sound bitter.  Giggle a little.

And I'm not even a straight female gamer.  I like ******.

For the record, as a straight dude that is always annoyed when people complain about tight outfits etc.on female characters, I would approve this. Ignoring for a second that I still hope certain characters won't be revealed as bi, that's an opinion that really isn't worth discussing at this point, let me say that in my perfect world, equality would mean MORE oversexualization and exploitation of men, so the ladies and gay men also get something to enjoy.

But I also don't understand the bad reputation of fanservice when it is only in terms of characters being designed to be very attractive. I love my ugly characters, I do, male or female, but you know, a lot of times I just like to look at a character and think he/she is hot. (well, as a straight man I don't usually do that with male characters unless they're played by Aaron Eckhart, but I digress) And I like those characters showing how hot they are. That can of course work in different ways and often more clothes or an element of mystery ADD to the attraction and some people like me just have weird kinks too (like, personally , I like bodypainting, I like characters with unusual skincolor and I generally, in entertainment, in fiction, like...the unusual - thus me finding the aliens in ME visually more pleasing than the humans...though I do like Kellys haircut and I most certainly don't mind a bald shaved girl if she can wear it...and I digress again), but the point is...I think it's nice if everyone gets something to stare at and drool about. 
It's just entertainment, unrealistic, supermodel looking characters are fine in these things.

[InvincibleHero]

HolyMoogle wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

IoCaster wrote...

ipgd wrote...

IoCaster wrote...

Well thanks for putting it right out there. Disgusting bigot am I? Even though I've stated implicitly that I'm for the inclusion of same sex romances? The only limitation that I've advocated is a 'choice' option on a selection screen so that everyone feels like their character is representative of what they perceive their Shepard to be. Where's the harm in that?

Again, because you can already do that in the game by choosing to not pursue same-sex romances. Absolutely nothing functionally changes about the game, other than the point at which you choose to or not to pursue a same-sex romance. The problem being that Bioware would be making a concession to people who are bothered by homosexuality and thereby affirming their concerns in the process.

I'm not understanding what your objection is. Is it the injection point, really? How the hell do you actually believe that forcing a viewpoint is beneficial on any level? Does your mindset actually tune itself to, '****' you will accept my authority, and that's how things work? You cannot force people to accept your viewpoint under any circumstances. Stop it and let nature take it's course already. This has taken on the aspect of surrealism, seriously.

Ok. Imagine someone suggested a toggle that removes all the asians from the game. Or all of the women. Or all of the redheads. With the implication that it was completely normal not to want to play any game with asians, women, or redheads in it. Some people, even in modern america, believe that images of women should never be shown. Still, I'd be upset if a game company put in a toggle that removed my entire gender from the game.

Can you see why that might be objectionable?

Objecting to the toggle is tanatamount to hypocrisy to the extreme. What happened to we only want to be able to play the game our way and it doesn't affect your personal canon Shepard to let us play a gay Shepard? Seems that should cut both ways. It doesn't affect your game where you get to have m/m and he gets to play his way. There should be no objection.

As for straw man arguments this is exactly that. Even when I've disagreeed with something you (CCG), I always respected the intelligence and well-crafted arguments you bring up. I can't even think of responding to any of your posts  previously unless in agreement.

No one is arguing from removing specific races and genders from the game. It is a hot button issue of sexuality. Sorry to say but m/m is not appealing to most heterosexual males and even many females. Someone saying remove blacks would be irrational hatred of a whole race while not necessarily homophobia if someone doesn't want to see m/m material. It is again sexual nature not just a depiction of say an old Asian woman that no one should find objectionable and still no one has asked for their removal as far as I am aware.

I don't think people should be forced to be exposed to material they find objectionable. What about bestiality if it was included without BW saying anything? You think people would be rightly angry? I do. Some people potentially don't want to see male nudity.

Some people hate blood and violence and profanity and some games have toggles to limit that. It is all a business and taking a hard line might potentially cost sales for what. I think there is no reason to be offended. I am male and people play femShep and I don't think that is a knock on my masculinity or belittles me in any way.

BW's record on gay romances is not too sterling. They seem to be getting more and more preachy and finger wagging and offensive rather than an option for those that wanted it. Zevran was a poor excuse. I had romanced both Morrigan and Leliana up to that point with Leliana being active and he still hits on me. In fact, I visited Leliana's tent right before speaking to him. Still hard ninja. Then comes the remarks where if you answer anything, but agree it is natural I assume you get negative loyalty points. I was so stunned at that I didn't even reload to find out the best min/max. I  started skipping VO which I never had done previously in any BW game. There is no reason to include that. Fine he hits on you only option there needs are you interested or not period. I play games to make choices not to have writers inject their morality into games and make decisions of their opinion value > gamer. Values judgements directed at players are not needed in videogames especially in RPGs. I didn't rant against BW but it was shocking and lots more people that don't post here might have had a stronger negative reaction to it.

For the record I am all for people having choice of partners in real life. They should not be discriminated against in jobs, housing, kept out of organizations, etc. I have seen plenty of male nudity in movies and other media (ahem) that it doesn't bother me ,but I have no interest in seeing m/m in any graphic way. If I see two men kissing (or a man and woman)I can look away, but in a game you can't do that and it is unlikely they would offer refunds because someone was upset about objectiobnable sexual material. I am against PDA of any kind and think certain things are for private locales.

Hey Elitepinecone glad you got what you wanted.  You were always respectful along with a few others. Some people are so militant they injure the cause. I never thought they would. I think EA losing money has something to do with it. They can only hope the positive publicity outweighs the negative sales drag for making it known to include m/m. I have bought all their previous games with such content except DA2 which is unrelated to why I might not buy it.

So I see no harm in allowing people to remain in their comfort zone to play the game as they want to. Losing sales is not the way to go I would think.  There needs a way where everyone gets what they want. I say it starts with 100% player initiated. I would be happy if companies made some games purely for gay players. Where the two intersect it should be handled with care.

Just think a toggle could improve the m/m for players that want it. They can be more extreme having less constraint because of a simple checkbox (off by default) to enable m/m. Flirting is one obvious way and I am sure there could be lots of other ways. Obviously very few objected to f/f and it would be punishment to take that away. 

Well ok then.

Standing upon the wisdom of InvincibleHero, Mass Effect 3 will now contain start-of-game toggles for:

- Same-sex romances
- Interracial romances
- Interreligious romances
- Interspecies romances
- Folk dun' gettin' too uppity and tellin' mah Shepard wut to do. Why you cotton pickin'!

And so forth.

This way, the completely valid and understandable prejudices which surely run rampant throughout the Mass Effect playerbase will be properly catered to, and nobody will have to witness such horrors as homosexuals, people of another color, people of another faith, and getting bossed around by certain folk they don't rightly recollect takin' a likin' to.

That's reasonable, right? 

Umm nope if you actually read it all I said it is irrational to hate a race. Already addressed that very point in my post responding to CGG. Repeating a strawman doesn't make it valid.
 
I am not for prejudice against any race or creed and I mentiooned gays in real life. I do not equate it as prejudice if someone wants no part of optional m/m romance in a game. Prejudice is never understandable in the sense it should be accepted. People tend to blow it out of proportion like there are mass killings in the street over race.

No one has asked for those toggles you mentioned but only one specific one. That content was in ME1 and 2 and people had no problems with it. They added m/m. I don't care but would like to see an balanced approach to how it is handled.

Only Liara makes sense to me, but I don't crusade against that. Whatever they want. I shake my head at the hate people spew towards Talimancers. I won't take the option, but don't begrudge those that do.

You will still have your m/m options so where is the beef exactly? You play your way and let others play there way.

[M-Sinistrari]

ipgd wrote...

People need to be exposed to objectional content so objectional content stops being objectional. There was a time where showing interracial kissing on television was hugely controversial -- were we to go back in a time machine, would you advocate that interracial romances be hidden or marginalized or what have you because it might be offensive? Or would you see that as a concession to bigotry, an implicit endorsement of a sentiment we have an obligation to help eradicate through education and, yes, exposure in media?

I understand that greater visibility does help with acceptance, but one does have to be careful about seeming to be overbearing with the message.  If people feel they're being forced that only breeds resentment which doesn't foster anything other than more intolerance.

[Nashiktal]

InvincibleHero wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

@InvincibleHero: Once upon a time, race and gender were also "hot button issues."  So was religion.

Hell, they still are in some places...

Anyway, if a dude hits on you, you say the same thing you'd say to a girl that wasn't to your liking: "No thanks, not interested."

Seriously, how hard is it to just click bottom-right every once in a while?

Sex is always going to remain. It is something that should be private for the most part. I don't think most people care what people do in their own bedrooms. If they saw two men sexing up on a street corner then people are going to be rightly upset. BW needs to have care in how it is depcited and be non-judgemental in any potentially hot button issue.

Like I said that should be it, but the game proselitizes and you know it. This is also after you spare his life. It was definitely too heavy-handed.

How hard is it to you know reference obviously active flags and never have it come up to begin with? They wanted to put a slant on an issue agree or not I, don't think it is something that should be done.

Should be private? You are talking of a cultural thing dude. Did you know there is one tribe that celebrates the young mens passage to manhood of the village by having the elders ejaculate on their head?

Yeah. Different cultures have different outlooks.

[jakal66]

M-Sinistrari wrote...

ipgd wrote...

People need to be exposed to objectional content so objectional content stops being objectional. There was a time where showing interracial kissing on television was hugely controversial -- were we to go back in a time machine, would you advocate that interracial romances be hidden or marginalized or what have you because it might be offensive? Or would you see that as a concession to bigotry, an implicit endorsement of a sentiment we have an obligation to help eradicate through education and, yes, exposure in media?

I understand that greater visibility does help with acceptance, but one does have to be careful about seeming to be overbearing with the message.  If people feel they're being forced that only breeds resentment which doesn't foster anything other than more intolerance.

yes I totally agree with this...I don't mind if it's there but don't spoonfeed it to me if I don't like it...

[Eromenos]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...

Cootie wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...

I wonder if anyone would have an issue if there was a quest where Shepard has to seduce another man or get him to invite him home...wonder how comfortable some Shepards would feel.

It does make you wonder what the reaction would be if Morinth was a man. O.o

Exactly. Nobody complained when Morinth sat herself on any FemSheps lap and tried to hookup with her. 

I was disgusted by the way Morinth was singled out for "evil lesbian" exploitation, on all my Shepards male and female.

Interacting with Morinth was not what bothered me. Her exploitation factor was what bothered me. There were no helpful queer representations going on. People can argue that there were even no helpful straight relationships, but that doesn't dismiss the fact that heteronormativity was made excessively dominant and pervasive to the exclusion of all else.

I'd be appreciative if ME3 were to go so far as you were wondering. Considering that ME3 will come with an upgrade for S/S relationships, then the darker aspect of queer diversity won't be magnified the way it was portrayed in Morinth. Then again, there's no rule that says seducing a man, as a man, need ever be harmful.

If Morinth counts as a negative portrayal then why don't all the nice asari count as good ones?

Really? Which "all nice asari?" And I was talking about queerness in general, but you're focusing on asari as the wrongfully exclusive default for queerness in ME. I'll run with your thought, though. Where exactly are those healthy asari same-sex relationships?

-Samara was made to keep mum about her same-sex partner, but she went on at length about their "monster children." One in particular.

-Liara, Benezia, and Aethyta were a broken home/estranged.

-Whats-her-name at Baria Frontiers kiosk was a grief-stricken rabid animal.

-I should speechify about the Consort but it's late.

Every asari known to be queer has been slanted towards pleasing homophobic culture's limited tolerances for F/F sexuality. Including Liara. The fact that non-homophobic gamers might be able to enjoy Liara anyway has little to do with BioWare actually wanting to please them for any right reasons. Mechanically Liara was the same as Morinth albeit "nicer." More "PC." Liara and Morinth were both "allowed" because they were exotic alien female cop-outs. BioWare's ploy of having it both ways. I'm certain both their sex/romance dialogues and animations are identical whether Shepard is male or female. That treatment was not extended to Kaidan, Ashley, Miranda, Jacob, Thane, or Jack. The selectivity then is not about "character." It was not a "courtesy" that made asari stand out in any good way. It was homophobia that forced a scant few alien female hourglasses to shoulder the entire burden of portraying a real-life targeted group...and not even for the benefit that target group.

The ME team may finally be trying to get it right. No way to be certain till they place the finishing touches.

Modifié par Eromenos, 18 mai 2011 - 04:12 .

[lovgreno]

You know, judging from sites like Deviant Art it seems to me like many gals love some fictional m/m loving. And who am I to deny them that? Especialy as I, like most guys don't mind a little f/f loving...

This sounds to me like a huge group of potential costumers who want to give their money to the company that dares to give them what they want. It's potentialy more than twice as many consumers than the sterotype game consumer (young guys like myself who likes curvy women and cool action). If I was the one who held the BW budget it would be a tempting scenario to take the lead in widening the audience and market for my product.

Small risk, but the priiize!

[InvincibleHero]

ipgd wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

Yeah partially, but both are about sexuality and are more relational then being Asian vs being gay.. I was going to put disclaimer in paraenthesis.

So, depictions of homosexuality are closer to depictions of sex with another non-sapient species incapable of giving informed consent...? I don't think you can escape this faux pas, guy.

People need to be exposed to objectional content so objectional content stops being objectional. There was a time where showing interracial kissing on television was hugely controversial -- were we to go back in a time machine, would you advocate that interracial romances be hidden or marginalized or what have you because it might be offensive? Or would you see that as a concession to bigotry, an implicit endorsement of a sentiment we have an obligation to help eradicate through education and, yes, exposure in media?

No simply what I stated both have a sexual nature period. Nothing else inferred or implied. You could change it to something else it was only a concept that I was trying to illustrate.

Umm no being confrontational does not work. AT ALL. That is why we have wars and people being gunned down in streets and anti-gay violence. If people lived their lives as unobtrusively as possible then most people will let live and ignore it. Try to force them to do something and you get the opposite.

It makes little sense. Interracial was hidden as much as possible and so were gay couplings. Is there more violence today or in the 50s towards gays? I'd say right now. I didn't hear any Matthew Shepard type stories from back then. It is the in your facism that causes more hatred on both sides.

Videogames are not the place for social agendas. They are products for people to get entertainment from.

[Nashiktal]

Eromenos wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...

Cootie wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...

I wonder if anyone would have an issue if there was a quest where Shepard has to seduce another man or get him to invite him home...wonder how comfortable some Shepards would feel.

It does make you wonder what the reaction would be if Morinth was a man. O.o

Exactly. Nobody complained when Morinth sat herself on any FemSheps lap and tried to hookup with her. 

I was disgusted by the way Morinth was singled out for "evil lesbian" exploitation, on all my Shepards male and female.

Interacting with Morinth was not what bothered me. Her exploitation factor was what bothered me. There were no helpful queer representations going on. People can argue that there were even no helpful straight relationships, but that doesn't dismiss the fact that heteronormativity was made excessively dominant and pervasive to the exclusion of all else.

I'd be appreciative if ME3 were to go so far as you were wondering. Considering that ME3 will come with an upgrade for S/S relationships, then the darker aspect of queer diversity won't be magnified the way it was portrayed in Morinth. Then again, there's no rule that says seducing a man, as a man, need ever be harmful.

If Morinth counts as a negative portrayal then why don't all the nice asari count as good ones?

Really? Which "all nice asari?" And I was talking about queerness in general, but you're focusing on asari as the wrongfully exclusive default for queerness in ME. I'll run with your thought, though. Where exactly are those healthy asari same-sex relationships?

-Samara was made to keep mum about her same-sex partner, but she went on at length about their "monster children." One in particular.

-Liara, Benezia, and Aethyta were a broken home/estranged.

-Whats-her-name at Baria Frontiers kiosk was a grief-stricken rabid animal.

-I should speechify about the Consort but it's late.

Every asari known to be queer has been slanted towards pleasing homophobic culture's limited tolerances for F/F sexuality. Including Liara. The fact that non-homophobic gamers might be able to enjoy Liara anyway has little to do with BioWare actually wanting to please them for any right reasons. Mechanically Liara was the same as Morinth albeit "nicer." More "PC." Liara and Morinth were both "allowed" because they were exotic alien female cop-outs. BioWare's ploy of having it both ways. I'm certain both their sex/romance dialogues and animations are identical whether Shepard is male or female. That treatment was not extended to Kaidan, Ashley, Miranda, Jacob, Thane, or Jack. The selectivity then is not about "character." It was not a "courtesy" that made asari stand out in any good way. It was homophobia that forced a scant few alien female hourglasses to shoulder the entire burden of portraying a real-life targeted group...and not even for the benefit that target group.

The ME team may finally be trying to get it right. No way to be certain till they place the finishing touches.

Just a note. I wouldn't say that is Biowares way of saying homosexuality is bad, as much as it is Bioware's love of giving everyone *character development* by making them have family issues. Seriously thats what almost every character has in ME.

[InvincibleHero]

Nashiktal wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

@InvincibleHero: Once upon a time, race and gender were also "hot button issues."  So was religion.

Hell, they still are in some places...

Anyway, if a dude hits on you, you say the same thing you'd say to a girl that wasn't to your liking: "No thanks, not interested."

Seriously, how hard is it to just click bottom-right every once in a while?

Sex is always going to remain. It is something that should be private for the most part. I don't think most people care what people do in their own bedrooms. If they saw two men sexing up on a street corner then people are going to be rightly upset. BW needs to have care in how it is depcited and be non-judgemental in any potentially hot button issue.

Like I said that should be it, but the game proselitizes and you know it. This is also after you spare his life. It was definitely too heavy-handed.

How hard is it to you know reference obviously active flags and never have it come up to begin with? They wanted to put a slant on an issue agree or not I, don't think it is something that should be done.

Should be private? You are talking of a cultural thing dude. Did you know there is one tribe that celebrates the young mens passage to manhood of the village by having the elders ejaculate on their head?

Yeah. Different cultures have different outlooks.

What percentage of the world would that apply to? Yeah not even likely .1%. They do not have ME localized for them in any case. Irrelevant.

[Marta Rio]

Hmmm, this toggle discussion is kind of interesting.  I don't think putting in a toggle for your Shep's sexuality is necessarily the same as putting in a toggle for race, because well, you can't tell if someone is gay just by looking at them.  They either have to tell you, or you have to see them engaging in a behavior that makes it clear that they like members of the same sex.

I think you could include a toggle for sexuality, but also still include gay characters in the game.  In this case, the toggle would remove any of the "Shepard initiates flirting" dialogue options as appropriate, but other characters could still mention past same sex relationships, or could comment on the attractiveness of a person of the same sex.   The toggle might also remove some flirting dialogue from previous squadmates, since they would presumably know whether Shep is interested in men or women or both (as I'm sure on a ship the size of the Normandy they were all gossiping about Shep's personal life incessantly...)

Modifié par Marta Rio, 18 mai 2011 - 04:19 .

[ipgd]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Umm nope if you actually read it all I said it is irrational to hate a race. Already addressed that very point in my post responding to CGG. Repeating a strawman doesn't make it valid.
 
I am not for prejudice against any race or creed and I mentiooned gays in real life. I do not equate it as prejudice if someone wants no part of optional m/m romance in a game. Prejudice is never understandable in the sense it should be accepted. People tend to blow it out of proportion like there are mass killings in the street over race.

No one has asked for those toggles you mentioned but only one specific one. That content was in ME1 and 2 and people had no problems with it. They added m/m. I don't care but would like to see an balanced approach to how it is handled.

Only Liara makes sense to me, but I don't crusade against that. Whatever they want. I shake my head at the hate people spew towards Talimancers. I won't take the option, but don't begrudge those that do.

You will still have your m/m options so where is the beef exactly? You play your way and let others play there way.

You can already have no part of optional m/m romance in the game. By not taking any part in it.

There is no balance when it comes to prejudice. You cannot compromise with bigots. They will never be happy unless it is entirely removed, and the advocacy of such "compromises" is merely an attempt to use influence to spite the people who do want these features: "fine, you can have it, as long as it's crippled in some way to remind you we hate you". Even if a toggle were to be implemented, these same people would move the goalposts where ever they pleased and continue to crusade against its existence, so trying to bargain with them does not actually win Bioware any chips.

Conceding to their complaints is an implicit endorsement of the legitimacy of said complaints, when they should be completely ignored in favor of continuing with the uncompromised original intent and integrity of the developers.

M-Sinistrari wrote...

I&nbsp;understand that greater visibility does help with acceptance, but one does have to be careful about seeming to be overbearing with the message.&nbsp; If people feel they're being forced that only breeds resentment which doesn't foster anything other than more intolerance.

I do not recall any same sex relationship in any Bioware game I've played that has been "forced" on the player. Some insecure straight boys seem to interpret a man showing any interest in them as being "forced", but that kind of knee-jerk sensationalism is solved through more exposure. If you see a couple of queers every now and then it's not so damn surprising.

[M-Sinistrari]

lovgreno wrote...

You know, judging from sites like Deviant Art it seems to me like many gals love some fictional m/m loving. And who am I to deny them that? Especialy as I, like most guys don't mind a little f/f loving...

This sounds to me like a huge group of potential costumers who want to give their money to the company that dares to give them what they want. It's potentialy more than twice as many consumers than the sterotype game consumer (young guys like myself who likes curvy women and cool action). If I was the one who held the BW budget it would be a tempting scenario to take the lead in widening the audience and market for my product.

Small risk, but the priiize!

One can't really go by the internet to assume popularity.  Case in point Snakes On A Plane and Scott Pilgrim were assumed to be huge blockbusters due to the internet buzz and looked what happened in the actuality.

It's easy for us to presume internet presence = popularity since we're all online, but there is still a pretty big segment of the population that's still either not bothering with it or just limited to a frontpage and facebook.