6696 réponses à ce sujet

[HolyMoogle]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Umm nope if you actually read it all I said it is irrational to hate a race. Already addressed that very point in my post responding to CGG. Repeating a strawman doesn't make it valid.
 
I am not for prejudice against any race or creed and I mentiooned gays in real life. I do not equate it as prejudice if someone wants no part of optional m/m romance in a game. Prejudice is never understandable in the sense it should be accepted. People tend to blow it out of proportion like there are mass killings in the street over race.

No one has asked for those toggles you mentioned but only one specific one. That content was in ME1 and 2 and people had no problems with it. They added m/m. I don't care but would like to see an balanced approach to how it is handled.

Only Liara makes sense to me, but I don't crusade against that. Whatever they want. I shake my head at the hate people spew towards Talimancers. I won't take the option, but don't begrudge those that do.

You will still have your m/m options so where is the beef exactly? You play your way and let others play there way.

You're being ever so contradictory.

Little old confused me is just trying to get this all straightened out. You're saying it's wrong to be prejudiced on the basis of race in real life and in a game, and wrong to be prejudiced against homsexuals in real life, but ok in a game?

Just trying to get this all worked out.

Because if you're justifying prejudice aganst same-sex relationships in a video game, then why shouldn't we also justify prejudice against interracial or interreligious relationships?

[InvincibleHero]

lovgreno wrote...

You know, judging from sites like Deviant Art it seems to me like many gals love some fictional m/m loving. And who am I to deny them that? Especialy as I, like most guys don't mind a little f/f loving...

This sounds to me like a huge group of potential costumers who want to give their money to the company that dares to give them what they want. It's potentialy more than twice as many consumers than the sterotype game consumer (young guys like myself who likes curvy women and cool action). If I was the one who held the BW budget it would be a tempting scenario to take the lead in widening the audience and market for my product.

Small risk, but the priiize!

Just curious as to how you would know definitively whether any specific posters are male or female. This is the internet and you only have the truthfulness of the individual poster in self-identification to go by.

If it was so not risk then why is BW basically one the few companies that has gone s/s? Every company would have been on this bandwagon long ago,

[InvincibleHero]

HolyMoogle wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

Umm nope if you actually read it all I said it is irrational to hate a race. Already addressed that very point in my post responding to CGG. Repeating a strawman doesn't make it valid.
 
I am not for prejudice against any race or creed and I mentiooned gays in real life. I do not equate it as prejudice if someone wants no part of optional m/m romance in a game. Prejudice is never understandable in the sense it should be accepted. People tend to blow it out of proportion like there are mass killings in the street over race.

No one has asked for those toggles you mentioned but only one specific one. That content was in ME1 and 2 and people had no problems with it. They added m/m. I don't care but would like to see an balanced approach to how it is handled.

Only Liara makes sense to me, but I don't crusade against that. Whatever they want. I shake my head at the hate people spew towards Talimancers. I won't take the option, but don't begrudge those that do.

You will still have your m/m options so where is the beef exactly? You play your way and let others play there way.

You're being ever so contradictory.

Little old confused me is just trying to get this all straightened out. You're saying it's wrong to be prejudiced on the basis of race in real life and in a game, and wrong to be prejudiced against homsexuals in real life, but ok in a game?

Just trying to get this all worked out.

Because if you're justifying prejudice aganst same-sex relationships in a video game, then why shouldn't we also justify prejudice against interracial or interreligious relationships?

Nope you choose to equate the toggle with prejudice. Prejudice would be if they keep content as is and allow a rengade interrupt to clock Kaiden if he hits on your male Shepard or send him out the airlock. FEEL me now.

[ipgd]

InvincibleHero wrote...

No simply what I stated both have a sexual nature period. Nothing else inferred or implied. You could change it to something else it was only a concept that I was trying to illustrate.

Umm no being confrontational does not work. AT ALL. That is why we have wars and people being gunned down in streets and anti-gay violence. If people lived their lives as unobtrusively as possible then most people will let live and ignore it. Try to force them to do something and you get the opposite.

It makes little sense. Interracial was hidden as much as possible and so were gay couplings. Is there more violence today or in the 50s towards gays? I'd say right now. I didn't hear any Matthew Shepard type stories from back then. It is the in your facism that causes more hatred on both sides.

You don't know a thing about civil rights history at all, do you. :|

Videogames are not the place for social agendas. They are products for people to get entertainment from.

Video games are part of the media and media shapes our society. Gays have to be a part of the things we base our culture on to be accepted.

[HolyMoogle]

InvincibleHero wrote...

HolyMoogle wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

Umm nope if you actually read it all I said it is irrational to hate a race. Already addressed that very point in my post responding to CGG. Repeating a strawman doesn't make it valid.
 
I am not for prejudice against any race or creed and I mentiooned gays in real life. I do not equate it as prejudice if someone wants no part of optional m/m romance in a game. Prejudice is never understandable in the sense it should be accepted. People tend to blow it out of proportion like there are mass killings in the street over race.

No one has asked for those toggles you mentioned but only one specific one. That content was in ME1 and 2 and people had no problems with it. They added m/m. I don't care but would like to see an balanced approach to how it is handled.

Only Liara makes sense to me, but I don't crusade against that. Whatever they want. I shake my head at the hate people spew towards Talimancers. I won't take the option, but don't begrudge those that do.

You will still have your m/m options so where is the beef exactly? You play your way and let others play there way.

You're being ever so contradictory.

Little old confused me is just trying to get this all straightened out. You're saying it's wrong to be prejudiced on the basis of race in real life and in a game, and wrong to be prejudiced against homsexuals in real life, but ok in a game?

Just trying to get this all worked out.

Because if you're justifying prejudice aganst same-sex relationships in a video game, then why shouldn't we also justify prejudice against interracial or interreligious relationships?

Nope you choose to equate the toggle with prejudice. Prejudice would be if they keep content as is and allow a rengade interrupt to clock Kaiden if he hits on your male Shepard or send him out the airlock. FEEL me now.

No, not really. Segregation is prejudice. As has been said, if you don't like M/M romances, don't pursue them.

Since you don't equate a toggle with prejudice, though, you're all for the interracial/interreligious toggles? For people who don't want to see such things?

[Nashiktal]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

@InvincibleHero: Once upon a time, race and gender were also "hot button issues."  So was religion.

Hell, they still are in some places...

Anyway, if a dude hits on you, you say the same thing you'd say to a girl that wasn't to your liking: "No thanks, not interested."

Seriously, how hard is it to just click bottom-right every once in a while?

Sex is always going to remain. It is something that should be private for the most part. I don't think most people care what people do in their own bedrooms. If they saw two men sexing up on a street corner then people are going to be rightly upset. BW needs to have care in how it is depcited and be non-judgemental in any potentially hot button issue.

Like I said that should be it, but the game proselitizes and you know it. This is also after you spare his life. It was definitely too heavy-handed.

How hard is it to you know reference obviously active flags and never have it come up to begin with? They wanted to put a slant on an issue agree or not I, don't think it is something that should be done.

Should be private? You are talking of a cultural thing dude. Did you know there is one tribe that celebrates the young mens passage to manhood of the village by having the elders ejaculate on their head?

Yeah. Different cultures have different outlooks.

What percentage of the world would that apply to? Yeah not even likely .1%. They do not have ME localized for them in any case. Irrelevant.

Missed the point you have. 

What I am trying to tell you is that not everyone shares your values, even in your own country. So when you say "Sex should be private" you should remember that not everyone was raised the way you were. I wouldn't exactly call bachelor parties as private about sex. My friend wouldn't stop talking about it at the office for days. And god knows when I saw the video from that time my girlfriend attended a bachelorette party.

[AltitudeNYC]

The guy on the street with the end of the world sign may be crazy, but I think his hearts in the right place.

The world should end. . . It's become entirely too ludicrous.

[MACharlie1]

I don't understand what would be the point of a toggle. Wouldn't the fact that you get six choices on a dialog wheel be enough that are pretty clear in motive? Does simply seeing the fact that you have options to be a homosexual in-game really bother people that much?

[InvincibleHero]

Nashiktal wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

@InvincibleHero: Once upon a time, race and gender were also "hot button issues."  So was religion.

Hell, they still are in some places...

Anyway, if a dude hits on you, you say the same thing you'd say to a girl that wasn't to your liking: "No thanks, not interested."

Seriously, how hard is it to just click bottom-right every once in a while?

Sex is always going to remain. It is something that should be private for the most part. I don't think most people care what people do in their own bedrooms. If they saw two men sexing up on a street corner then people are going to be rightly upset. BW needs to have care in how it is depcited and be non-judgemental in any potentially hot button issue.

Like I said that should be it, but the game proselitizes and you know it. This is also after you spare his life. It was definitely too heavy-handed.

How hard is it to you know reference obviously active flags and never have it come up to begin with? They wanted to put a slant on an issue agree or not I, don't think it is something that should be done.

Should be private? You are talking of a cultural thing dude. Did you know there is one tribe that celebrates the young mens passage to manhood of the village by having the elders ejaculate on their head?

Yeah. Different cultures have different outlooks.

What percentage of the world would that apply to? Yeah not even likely .1%. They do not have ME localized for them in any case. Irrelevant.

Missed the point you have. 

What I am trying to tell you is that not everyone shares your values, even in your own country. So when you say "Sex should be private" you should remember that not everyone was raised the way you were. I wouldn't exactly call bachelor parties as private about sex. My friend wouldn't stop talking about it at the office for days. And god knows when I saw the video from that time my girlfriend attended a bachelorette party.

There are laws against if nuff said.

Yeah see if everyone had enough respect to keep it private then it wouldn't be offensive to anyone.  That's my point. Courtesy and respect for other humans is dying out .

[M-Sinistrari]

ipgd wrote...
I do not recall any same sex relationship in any Bioware game I've played that has been "forced" on the player. Some insecure straight boys seem to interpret a man showing any interest in them as being "forced", but that kind of knee-jerk sensationalism is solved through more exposure. If you see a couple of queers every now and then it's not so damn surprising.

Since your example read as if speaking from a greater scale than just a game, I was replying in the same manner, and since your example was posed broader than just the subject of homosexuality, I was also applying it in a broad manner.

It's basic psychology that if anyone feels forced, they're going to resist.  Not sure how old you are, but back in the 70s there was a push in schools to use non-gender terminology such as replacing mailman with mailperson.  As we can see, it didn't go over well since we're all not speaking in non-gender terminology.

If we want to apply this to homosexuality, look at the division in the GBLT community over how some of the PRIDE parades are viewed.  Some are all for the over the top atmosphere for the show factor, while others believe it hurts the cause with enforcing the stereotypes.

[lovgreno]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Just curious as to how you would know definitively whether any specific posters are male or female. This is the internet and you only have the truthfulness of the individual poster in self-identification to go by.

If it was so not risk then why is BW basically one the few companies that has gone s/s? Every company would have been on this bandwagon long ago,

It's just the feeling I got after many years of browsing the internets. Make of it what you will, but I think there is definitely a untapped market here.

Companies are usualy very conservative when it comes to trying new things. It's more safe to put their money on old proven effective concepts than trying that tempting but unproven new idea. Most just waits for someone else to try it first and then follow them if it's successfull. But if you are first with a new thing you can bet a great head start in the race for costumer interest. DAO and DA2 is a indication that BW may be ready to take the initiative here.

[HolyMoogle]

M-Sinistrari wrote...

ipgd wrote...
I do not recall any same sex relationship in any Bioware game I've played that has been "forced" on the player. Some insecure straight boys seem to interpret a man showing any interest in them as being "forced", but that kind of knee-jerk sensationalism is solved through more exposure. If you see a couple of queers every now and then it's not so damn surprising.

Since your example read as if speaking from a greater scale than just a game, I was replying in the same manner, and since your example was posed broader than just the subject of homosexuality, I was also applying it in a broad manner.

It's basic psychology that if anyone feels forced, they're going to resist.  Not sure how old you are, but back in the 70s there was a push in schools to use non-gender terminology such as replacing mailman with mailperson.  As we can see, it didn't go over well since we're all not speaking in non-gender terminology.

If we want to apply this to homosexuality, look at the division in the GBLT community over how some of the PRIDE parades are viewed.  Some are all for the over the top atmosphere for the show factor, while others believe it hurts the cause with enforcing the stereotypes.

I'm seeing some very long bows being drawn on this forum over relating the politics of stereotypes and gay pride parades to Bioware giving a dialogue option with a little heart next to it to players who want that option.

It's kinda sad, really.

[Eromenos]

Nashiktal wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Eromenos wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...

Cootie wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...

I wonder if anyone would have an issue if there was a quest where Shepard has to seduce another man or get him to invite him home...wonder how comfortable some Shepards would feel.

It does make you wonder what the reaction would be if Morinth was a man. O.o

Exactly. Nobody complained when Morinth sat herself on any FemSheps lap and tried to hookup with her. 

I was disgusted by the way Morinth was singled out for "evil lesbian" exploitation, on all my Shepards male and female.

Interacting with Morinth was not what bothered me. Her exploitation factor was what bothered me. There were no helpful queer representations going on. People can argue that there were even no helpful straight relationships, but that doesn't dismiss the fact that heteronormativity was made excessively dominant and pervasive to the exclusion of all else.

I'd be appreciative if ME3 were to go so far as you were wondering. Considering that ME3 will come with an upgrade for S/S relationships, then the darker aspect of queer diversity won't be magnified the way it was portrayed in Morinth. Then again, there's no rule that says seducing a man, as a man, need ever be harmful.

If Morinth counts as a negative portrayal then why don't all the nice asari count as good ones?

Really? Which "all nice asari?" And I was talking about queerness in general, but you're focusing on asari as the wrongfully exclusive default for queerness in ME. I'll run with your thought, though. Where exactly are those healthy asari same-sex relationships?

-Samara was made to keep mum about her same-sex partner, but she went on at length about their "monster children." One in particular.

-Liara, Benezia, and Aethyta were a broken home/estranged.

-Whats-her-name at Baria Frontiers kiosk was a grief-stricken rabid animal.

-I should speechify about the Consort but it's late.

Every asari known to be queer has been slanted towards pleasing homophobic culture's limited tolerances for F/F sexuality. Including Liara. The fact that non-homophobic gamers might be able to enjoy Liara anyway has little to do with BioWare actually wanting to please them for any right reasons. Mechanically Liara was the same as Morinth albeit "nicer." More "PC." Liara and Morinth were both "allowed" because they were exotic alien female cop-outs. BioWare's ploy of having it both ways. I'm certain both their sex/romance dialogues and animations are identical whether Shepard is male or female. That treatment was not extended to Kaidan, Ashley, Miranda, Jacob, Thane, or Jack. The selectivity then is not about "character." It was not a "courtesy" that made asari stand out in any good way. It was homophobia that forced a scant few alien female hourglasses to shoulder the entire burden of portraying a real-life targeted group...and not even for the benefit that target group.

The ME team may finally be trying to get it right. No way to be certain till they place the finishing touches.

Just a note. I wouldn't say that is Biowares way of saying homosexuality is bad, as much as it is Bioware's love of giving everyone *character development* by making them have family issues. Seriously thats what almost every character has in ME.

Are you forgetting the parts where I noted that ME's limited queer characters were all forced to be stereotypes that primarily appeal to straight culture, with any respect to actual queer culture second in consideration?

Ashley's family was oh-so-normal, oh-so-stereotypically-patriotic to our contemporary senses.

You could say that Ashley's example is in the minority. I would say so too. Yet being a (supposedly)straight character, she is not in the minority. Her example is not seen as representing all breeders. Other straight characters who have less "wholesome" backgrounds/personalities are also not seen as representing all breeders. Whereas, the queer characters are unfairly processed this way because there are too few of them, and BioWare did not even make the effort of gearing them for queer folks. Kelly Chambers and Morinth were the blatant examples, the easy ones to turn a cold eye against. All the other ones I listed are understandably harder to put a finger on, but they too are the same in the sense of catering to exploitation.

[ipgd]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Nope you choose to equate the toggle with prejudice. Prejudice would be if they keep content as is and allow a rengade interrupt to clock Kaiden if he hits on your male Shepard or send him out the airlock. FEEL me now.

If I'm going to let you have your ****ing dog sex analogy I get to have my interracial relationship analogy.

Let's say I am a straight white female. I'm not comfortable with interracial romance, so I want a toggle that prevents Jacob from ever suggesting we might be able to have a relationship because just the thought of it offends me and makes me uncomfortable. Do you think that's okay, that it's worth catering to my prejudices, or can you see why people might have a problem with Bioware implicitly suggesting with the inclusion of such a toggle that people who need to radiate an anti-black aura from their digital avatar have legitimate concerns that are worth consideration?

Modifié par ipgd, 18 mai 2011 - 04:35 .

[M-Sinistrari]

HolyMoogle wrote...

I'm seeing some very long bows being drawn on this forum over relating the politics of stereotypes and gay pride parades to Bioware giving a dialogue option with a little heart next to it to players who want that option.

It's kinda sad, really.

I'm just trying to illustrate points.  My own point of view on this subject hasn't changed.  New LI being bi or exclusively gay, fine.  Change options on an existing LI to be bi, just make sure the writing's handled well and no one's cut out of friendship talk if they dont' romance and for the love of all that's good in the world, no more ninjamances of any sort.

It's just some of the people who are for s/s are coming across just as unreasonable as those who are adamantly against it that's sticking in my craw.

[blindchaos]

M-Sinistrari, I don't see how having maybe one or two ******/bi sexual characters in video games are comparable to the more forceful social movements that you have cited.

It doesn't sound like anyone is saying that people should be forced to romance a character of the same sex, they merely want a character's preference to be recognized. There have been many gay characters in film, and television, why should video games pretend other sexualities do not exist?

[InvincibleHero]

ipgd wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

No simply what I stated both have a sexual nature period. Nothing else inferred or implied. You could change it to something else it was only a concept that I was trying to illustrate.

Umm no being confrontational does not work. AT ALL. That is why we have wars and people being gunned down in streets and anti-gay violence. If people lived their lives as unobtrusively as possible then most people will let live and ignore it. Try to force them to do something and you get the opposite.

It makes little sense. Interracial was hidden as much as possible and so were gay couplings. Is there more violence today or in the 50s towards gays? I'd say right now. I didn't hear any Matthew Shepard type stories from back then. It is the in your facism that causes more hatred on both sides.

You don't know a thing about civil rights history at all, do you. :|

Videogames are not the place for social agendas. They are products for people to get entertainment from.

Video games are part of the media and media shapes our society. Gays have to be a part of the things we base our culture on to be accepted.

I said specifically anti-gay violence. Stirring a straw here.

There are plenty of examples in movies, books, and TV shows and as well as indoctrination from the public school system on various things. It is why US children are doing so poorly on things like math and science, they teach too much irrelevant pc stuff instead like environmentalism. Not their job. Show me one study that says this over4exposure changed a gay hater in his/her 60s to 70s that has had a lifelong hatred for gays or black or fill in the blank? It doesn't work that way. People change when they want to not by being forced to. To force compliance you have to go totalitarian and that doesn't work for even more reasons.

I contend they have been largely accepted all along. Very little gay violence until the last 20 years or so. People hid it and people let them be. Perfect harmony. You go in people's face you are wrong you bigot you hater and you get violence in return.

[Golden Owl]

I'm not getting all the fuss....It's simple, if you don't want your Shep in a s/s relationship, say no thanks when the option arises...my manShep likes women, men don't do it for him, a simple no thanks will clear that up and keep him hetro...Whats the big deal? Why is it even being argued? Different strokes for different folks, is about time and good to see its entering the gaming world too.

[Siansonea]

This thread needs rainbow cookies. Gluten-free, of course. Although maybe pouring some sugar on this debate isn't a good idea...

Looks like there will always be intolerant folks leading the charge back into the Dark Ages. But the times, they are a-changin', and you can't stem the tide by stamping your digital foot and demanding 1950s morality in a 2012 video game. Ain't never gonna happen.

[M-Sinistrari]

^ACtually I really could go for some nice low carb cookies about now.

blindchaos wrote...

M-Sinistrari, I don't see how having maybe one or two ******/bi sexual characters in video games are comparable to the more forceful social movements that you have cited.

It doesn't sound like anyone is saying that people should be forced to romance a character of the same sex, they merely want a character's preference to be recognized. There have been many gay characters in film, and television, why should video games pretend other sexualities do not exist?

From how some of the posts have gone, some are treating this as if it's on par with protesting in the streets or gathering up to lobby.  I myself think it's long overdue for some acceptance to be shown in videogames since most other media's already made some motions.

I do think discussion of the toggle option is a valid one to happen for sexuality be it straight, gay or asexual.  Whether it actually happens or not, who knows?  It's just another option for discussion same as differently coloured dialog or a specific icon to pop up.

Modifié par M-Sinistrari, 18 mai 2011 - 04:42 .

[InvincibleHero]

blindchaos wrote...

M-Sinistrari, I don't see how having maybe one or two ******/bi sexual characters in video games are comparable to the more forceful social movements that you have cited.

It doesn't sound like anyone is saying that people should be forced to romance a character of the same sex, they merely want a character's preference to be recognized. There have been many gay characters in film, and television, why should video games pretend other sexualities do not exist?

Why because videogames are interactive. You are part of the story. Forcing a viewpoint on someone and saying what they think is wrong in a product they paid $60 for is not a good idea.  You can turn off the movie you already know you are watching a story told from the writer/director's perspective. You either accept that viewpoint or not which has no consequences on you whatsoever.

[HolyMoogle]

InvincibleHero wrote...

ipgd wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

No simply what I stated both have a sexual nature period. Nothing else inferred or implied. You could change it to something else it was only a concept that I was trying to illustrate.

Umm no being confrontational does not work. AT ALL. That is why we have wars and people being gunned down in streets and anti-gay violence. If people lived their lives as unobtrusively as possible then most people will let live and ignore it. Try to force them to do something and you get the opposite.

It makes little sense. Interracial was hidden as much as possible and so were gay couplings. Is there more violence today or in the 50s towards gays? I'd say right now. I didn't hear any Matthew Shepard type stories from back then. It is the in your facism that causes more hatred on both sides.

You don't know a thing about civil rights history at all, do you. :|

Videogames are not the place for social agendas. They are products for people to get entertainment from.

Video games are part of the media and media shapes our society. Gays have to be a part of the things we base our culture on to be accepted.

I said specifically anti-gay violence. Stirring a straw here.

There are plenty of examples in movies, books, and TV shows and as well as indoctrination from the public school system on various things. It is why US children are doing so poorly on things like math and science, they teach too much irrelevant pc stuff instead like environmentalism. Not their job. Show me one study that says this over4exposure changed a gay hater in his/her 60s to 70s that has had a lifelong hatred for gays or black or fill in the blank? It doesn't work that way. People change when they want to not by being forced to. To force compliance you have to go totalitarian and that doesn't work for even more reasons.

I contend they have been largely accepted all along. Very little gay violence until the last 20 years or so. People hid it and people let them be. Perfect harmony. You go in people's face you are wrong you bigot you hater and you get violence in return.

This is very off-topic, but it's an incredibly dangerous attitude and ought to be addressed.

First of all, your concerns about what is taught in US public schools re maths and science is much more readily explained by cultural degradation and, dare I say it, parents. Schools spending all their time teaching "PC" (and I wonder what we mean by that) material instead of maths/science is a myth propagated by anti-intellectuals.

More importantly, violence against gays. People did NOT let them be prior to the last 20 years. Where on earth did you get that? Gays have faced violent oppressions for the last 2000 years. You're saying it would have been better if they just all stayed in the closet, so nobody would have ever had to deal with any of this? I can't even begin to complete the laundry list of things you're not grasping here, but here's a start:

- Mental health of young people unsure of their sexuality
- Freedom of speech
- Freedom of expression
- Not being in the closet is "in your face"?! What about all the movies/ads/billboards/people/etc who shove heterosexuality in our faces all day every day?

Seriously, I can either go on for hours about how violently repugnant your attitude on this is, or I can keep on topic and stop here. All I can say is that I hope someday you have some kind of epiphany.

[ipgd]

InvincibleHero wrote...

I said specifically anti-gay violence. Stirring a straw here.

There are plenty of examples in movies, books, and TV shows and as well as indoctrination from the public school system on various things. It is why US children are doing so poorly on things like math and science, they teach too much irrelevant pc stuff instead like environmentalism. Not their job. Show me one study that says this over4exposure changed a gay hater in his/her 60s to 70s that has had a lifelong hatred for gays or black or fill in the blank? It doesn't work that way. People change when they want to not by being forced to. To force compliance you have to go totalitarian and that doesn't work for even more reasons.

... Including gays in the media isn't forcing people to change. It's giving them a presence, and when old bigoted people die, the young generation that is used to seeing them without decades worth of prejudiced baggage moves on to shape a better future for everybody.

I contend they have been largely accepted all along. Very little gay violence until the last 20 years or so. People hid it and people let them be. Perfect harmony. You go in people's face you are wrong you bigot you hater and you get violence in return.

Stephen Colbert would like you. Screw reasoned facts backed up by sources and evidence -- the real truths come from the gut.

p.s. it may "feel like" there is very little gay violence, but there certainly is. People hide it, and still aren't left to be -- see: Tyler Clementi, Ryan Halligan, Asher Brown, etc., driven to suicide because they were relentlessly mocked for being gay or being perceived as gay. There is not perfect harmony right now and insisting that gays remain closeted and marginalized and hidden away from the media only encourages the kind of ignorance that enables Othering and viscious torment. Gay people need to have a presence for this to stop.

p.p.s. you probably shouldn't talk about things like you know what you're talking about when you don't know what you're talking about

Modifié par ipgd, 18 mai 2011 - 04:50 .

[Golden Owl]

InvincibleHero wrote...

blindchaos wrote...

M-Sinistrari, I don't see how having maybe one or two ******/bi sexual characters in video games are comparable to the more forceful social movements that you have cited.

It doesn't sound like anyone is saying that people should be forced to romance a character of the same sex, they merely want a character's preference to be recognized. There have been many gay characters in film, and television, why should video games pretend other sexualities do not exist?

Why because videogames are interactive. You are part of the story. Forcing a viewpoint on someone and saying what they think is wrong in a product they paid $60 for is not a good idea.  You can turn off the movie you already know you are watching a story told from the writer/director's perspective. You either accept that viewpoint or not which has no consequences on you whatsoever.

Strikes me, denying a full game experience for those not into hetro is forcing a point of view too.

[MACharlie1]

InvincibleHero wrote...

blindchaos wrote...

M-Sinistrari, I don't see how having maybe one or two ******/bi sexual characters in video games are comparable to the more forceful social movements that you have cited.

It doesn't sound like anyone is saying that people should be forced to romance a character of the same sex, they merely want a character's preference to be recognized. There have been many gay characters in film, and television, why should video games pretend other sexualities do not exist?

Why because videogames are interactive. You are part of the story. Forcing a viewpoint on someone and saying what they think is wrong in a product they paid $60 for is not a good idea.  You can turn off the movie you already know you are watching a story told from the writer/director's perspective. You either accept that viewpoint or not which has no consequences on you whatsoever.

How is having the option forcing a view point? Nobody is forcing your Shepard to bang another guy. There isn't any speech about gay rights. It's just that two guys might happen to have a thing for each other.