6696 réponses à ce sujet

[thatguy212]

So i stopped paying attention to this thread for a bit, what's everyone fighting about now?

[blindchaos]

M-Sinistrari,

I agree with almost all your points. I don't think the toggle option is bad in of itself. My sense is a player could classify his/herself as hetero, and not risk having a same sex romance. However, there could still be evidence of a party member's sexuality. I think what's offending some people is the idea using the toggle to remove any other preference which does not have the case.

I personally think games are fairly behind the times in terms of sexuality, and just having well developed characters with alternative sexualities would go a long way to fix that.

[InvincibleHero]

ipgd wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

Nope you choose to equate the toggle with prejudice. Prejudice would be if they keep content as is and allow a rengade interrupt to clock Kaiden if he hits on your male Shepard or send him out the airlock. FEEL me now.

If I'm going to let you have your ****ing dog sex analogy I get to have my interracial relationship analogy.

Let's say I am a straight white female. I'm not comfortable with interracial romance, so I want a toggle that prevents Jacob from ever suggesting we might be able to have a relationship because just the thought of it offends me and makes me uncomfortable. Do you think that's okay, that it's worth catering to my prejudices, or can you see why people might have a problem with Bioware implicitly suggesting with the inclusion of such a toggle that people who need to radiate an anti-black aura from their digital avatar have legitimate concerns that are worth consideration?

I would not be opposed to them having what they want, but it is not going to happen and we are arguing about nothing. There is no mass we don't want black characters in games demands being made. I haven't seen one. It is a non-issue. Are you insisting race= minority sexual preference? That is your argument which is clearly false.

[RaenImrahl]

Ladies and gentlemen:

Discussions of politics, religion, and national identity are not allowed on these forums. The topic of this thread is about the recent announcement of potential same-sex romances in ME3, how players would like to see it implemented in the game, and how they think it will impact the story.

I realize, given the very nature of the announcement, that it may be hard for some to keep the focus of the discussion appropriately confined. Nonetheless, this is not the place to debate the perceived strength or ills of society at large.

We're here to discuss a game. Comments should be confined to that.

Thank you to all who have worked to keep this thread (relatively) civil.

[InvincibleHero]

blindchaos wrote...

M-Sinistrari,

I agree with almost all your points. I don't think the toggle option is bad in of itself. My sense is a player could classify his/herself as hetero, and not risk having a same sex romance. However, there could still be evidence of a party member's sexuality. I think what's offending some people is the idea using the toggle to remove any other preference which does not have the case.

I personally think games are fairly behind the times in terms of sexuality, and just having well developed characters with alternative sexualities would go a long way to fix that.

Better toggle to add EXTRA m/m content = win IMO. You remove nothing.

[MACharlie1]

InvincibleHero wrote...

blindchaos wrote...

M-Sinistrari,

I agree with almost all your points. I don't think the toggle option is bad in of itself. My sense is a player could classify his/herself as hetero, and not risk having a same sex romance. However, there could still be evidence of a party member's sexuality. I think what's offending some people is the idea using the toggle to remove any other preference which does not have the case.

I personally think games are fairly behind the times in terms of sexuality, and just having well developed characters with alternative sexualities would go a long way to fix that.

Better toggle to add EXTRA m/m content = win IMO. You remove nothing.

Why not just leave it in the game in the first place and let me decide when the option in dialog comes up? I can read choices you know. 

[M-Sinistrari]

blindchaos wrote...

M-Sinistrari,

I agree with almost all your points. I don't think the toggle option is bad in of itself. My sense is a player could classify his/herself as hetero, and not risk having a same sex romance. However, there could still be evidence of a party member's sexuality. I think what's offending some people is the idea using the toggle to remove any other preference which does not have the case.

I personally think games are fairly behind the times in terms of sexuality, and just having well developed characters with alternative sexualities would go a long way to fix that.

For me, I'm fine if they go the much better phrased dialog wheel, specially coloured text, unique icons or toggle.  In a way I'd strongly prefer the much better phrased dialog wheel since on my first ME2 playthrough what I thought was just getting to know crew ended up with them kvetching over triangles.  Probably didnt' help I was playing with only subtitles on and no sound.

From how some on both sides of the debate have expressed thier views everyone gets to play thier Shep thier own way, they're coming across as everyone has to play my way.  To me that's not conducive to rational discussion.

[vimpel]

Gay is irrational.

[InvincibleHero]

Removed by user.

I still don't see how toggle = discrimination. People are looking to be offended.

Seriously do you think BW has handled the romances quite unobtrusively up until now? I don't and it takes a great deal to offend me.

Modifié par InvincibleHero, 18 mai 2011 - 05:11 .

[RaenImrahl]

@vimpel -- no trolling, please.

[Inquisitor Recon]

ipgd wrote...
p.s. it may "feel like" there is very little gay violence, but there certainly is. People hide it, and still aren't left to be -- see: Tyler Clementi, Ryan Halligan, Asher Brown, etc., driven to suicide because they were relentlessly mocked for being gay or being perceived as gay. There is not perfect harmony right now and insisting that gays remain closeted and marginalized and hidden away from the media only encourages the kind of ignorance that enables Othering and viscious torment. Gay people need to have a presence for this to stop.

It is ignorance to expect people to show some decency? To expect people to keep their sex lives behind closed doors? Your gay, great, I don't care, stop shouting it out, stop trying to "inform" schoolchildren about it, stop expecting society to treat you special. You honestly think forcing a "presence" in the media will change things? Young people commit suicide all the time, yet it is somehow more tragic when that person happens to be gay? Is that really the state of our culture? Good men and women, American soldiers, are fighting and dying halfway across the globe and nobody gives a damn, yet it is a national tragedy when a gay kid commits suicide! Look around at the world, some PC "embracing diversity" BS isn't going to do anything!

I don't play video games and expect to be hit over the head with the promotion of social agendas either. I strongly believe Bioware could have spent the effort adding content the majority of players could enjoy.

You refuse to accept compromise under the guise that some sort of option at the start of the game would be "offensive" or whatever. Some sort of DLC would also be "offensive" I'm sure. You're no better than the "homophobes" you insult.

[HolyMoogle]

@InvincibleHero


Indeed, 90% of marketing/advertising/etc features heterosexual people because 90% of people are heterosexual. And people don't complain about that.

So do not complain about the 10% that is aimed at homosexual/bisexual people. Including what Bioware is doing with ME3. Case closed, I think we can all agree on that.

[Marta Rio]

blindchaos wrote...
I don't think the toggle option is bad in of itself. My sense is a player could classify his/herself as hetero, and not risk having a same sex romance. However, there could still be evidence of a party member's sexuality. I think what's offending some people is the idea using the toggle to remove any other preference which does not have the case.

Yep, there are ways of implementing the toggle that don't remove all mention of same-sex individuals from the game.  I think you could even justify using the toggle to keep previous squadmates from actively hitting on your Shepard - it's not too much of a leap of logic that at this point they would know your Shep fairly well and would thus be aware of his or her romantic proclivities.  But you could still have James Vega talking about how he broke up with his boyfriend recently, or Liara mentioning that she thinks Miranda has a very well-shaped ass, etc.

I actually think that such a toggle would do a lot to quash the complainers, while still showing them that gay individuals exist in the ME universe.  I think most of them don't care that other characters are gay, they just abhor the thought that their Shepard might be.  It might be a good way of exposing them to positive portrayals of gay people, without inducing so much backlash.

[Ryzaki]

You know what's the absolute best solution?

Take out all romances/all heterosexual/homosexual/whatever sexual refernces and presto!

Everyone is on the same page.

[InvincibleHero]

MACharlie1 wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

blindchaos wrote...

M-Sinistrari,

I agree with almost all your points. I don't think the toggle option is bad in of itself. My sense is a player could classify his/herself as hetero, and not risk having a same sex romance. However, there could still be evidence of a party member's sexuality. I think what's offending some people is the idea using the toggle to remove any other preference which does not have the case.

I personally think games are fairly behind the times in terms of sexuality, and just having well developed characters with alternative sexualities would go a long way to fix that.

Better toggle to add EXTRA m/m content = win IMO. You remove nothing.

Why not just leave it in the game in the first place and let me decide when the option in dialog comes up? I can read choices you know. 

Zevran in DAO is one example and may people say DA2 is worse with Anders. Yes some people may be offended to have to choose I love you or no thanks when it's m/m. Not myself but I think at times BW crosses a line of civility and they can get worse. Having active hitting on is one way. Having to be made to feel like a homophobe if you answer a "loaded" question other than the "correct" way determined by BW or be punished some way in-game and many other ways people could have legitiamte concerns. Why assume this time it is going to be perfect and no one gets offended?

[mglJestersTear]

Wow. I came to this thread to comment on the fact that Kaidan won't apparently be romanced by a m!Shep, and to say that while I wish he could be, because I've always envisioned him with m!Shep, I understand why they'd bring in new LIs instead, to keep old characters consistent throughout the series. I was also going to wonder if the new bisexual male LI will be half as appealing to me as Kaidan, and see what everyone's thoughts on new LIs were... but I this thread has derailed so badly that I'm just going to put my hands in the air and walk away from the keyboard, slowly.

[InvincibleHero]

@ipgd you misread what I posted.  Let's stop that here.

To clarify I am not for removal of any and all references to s/s in ME3 like they don't exist, but giving the option to those that choose it. We don't know how the content will shape up so it's all specualtion anyway.

Modifié par InvincibleHero, 18 mai 2011 - 05:26 .

[RaenImrahl]

Forgive me for repeating myself, but I suspect some folks have been taking time carefully wording responses to previous posts.  They may have missed the following:

RaenImrahl wrote...

Discussions of politics, religion, and national identity are not allowed on these forums. The topic of this thread is about the recent announcement of potential same-sex romances in ME3, how players would like to see it implemented in the game, and how they think it will impact the story.

I realize, given the very nature of the announcement, that it may be hard for some to keep the focus of the discussion appropriately confined. Nonetheless, this is not the place to debate the perceived strength or ills of society at large.

We're here to discuss a game. Comments should be confined to that.

Thank you to all who have worked to keep this thread (relatively) civil.

[InvincibleHero]

Ryzaki wrote...

You know what's the absolute best solution?

Take out all romances/all heterosexual/homosexual/whatever sexual refernces and presto!

Everyone is on the same page.

If you can get everyone to agree for removing all romance options. I'll sign on.

[MACharlie1]

ReconTeam wrote...

ipgd wrote...
p.s. it may "feel like" there is very little gay violence, but there certainly is. People hide it, and still aren't left to be -- see: Tyler Clementi, Ryan Halligan, Asher Brown, etc., driven to suicide because they were relentlessly mocked for being gay or being perceived as gay. There is not perfect harmony right now and insisting that gays remain closeted and marginalized and hidden away from the media only encourages the kind of ignorance that enables Othering and viscious torment. Gay people need to have a presence for this to stop.

It is ignorance to expect people to show some decency? To expect people to keep their sex lives behind closed doors? Your gay, great, I don't care, stop shouting it out, stop trying to "inform" schoolchildren about it, stop expecting society to treat you special. You honestly think forcing a "presence" in the media will change things? Young people commit suicide all the time, yet it is somehow more tragic when that person happens to be gay? Is that really the state of our culture? Good men and women, American soldiers, are fighting and dying halfway across the globe and nobody gives a damn, yet it is a national tragedy when a gay kid commits suicide! Look around at the world, some PC "embracing diversity" BS isn't going to do anything!

I don't play video games and expect to be hit over the head with the promotion of social agendas either. I strongly believe Bioware could have spent the effort adding content the majority of players could enjoy.

You refuse to accept compromise under the guise that some sort of option at the start of the game would be "offensive" or whatever. Some sort of DLC would also be "offensive" I'm sure. You're no better than the "homophobes" you insult.

I happen to be on the side of keep your personal lives personal and there should never be a social agenda in regards to video games. I should never be hit over the head with it. Which is why I support the inclusion of S/S as long as it isn't "Look at me! Aren't I FABULOUS!" variety. Leave it as a matter of fact. Treat it as you would treat a hetero which wouldn't have a "Your a man and I'm a woman - we're just too different!". 

When a kid commits suicide because he is gay, then it's not easy to shrug that off since that kid was driven to suicide because of societal rejection and I don't think people should be rejecting other people from society just for being who they are - being something that they had no control over. I'm not going to argue over whats more important - soldiers or suicides because that's really irrelevant for this discussion. But both are pretty bad. 

And instead of wasting resources  - it takes less resources then you think to include s/s romances - it would probably take more to create a toggle which would turn off the options for s/s dialog. So just leave it in and create smarter dialog choices to avoid ninjamance and of course don't be dumb about selecting your option. Don't pick the first one because it's the paragon one. Pick the one that suits. If it rings any "I want you in my bed" vibe then don't select it. THAT isn't difficult. 

[Marta Rio]

mglJestersTear wrote...

Wow. I came to this thread to comment on the fact that Kaidan won't apparently be romanced by a m!Shep, and to say that while I wish he could be, because I've always envisioned him with m!Shep, I understand why they'd bring in new LIs instead, to keep old characters consistent throughout the series. I was also going to wonder if the new bisexual male LI will be half as appealing to me as Kaidan, and see what everyone's thoughts on new LIs were... but I this thread has derailed so badly that I'm just going to put my hands in the air and walk away from the keyboard, slowly.

Hey, if you want to get the thread back on topic, you should.  I think there's still a possiblity that Kaidan could show up as a m/m option.  As far as I can tell (especially after reading a fair number of posts on the Fight for the Love thread), he was the most popular candidate for this.  And I think a far fewer number of people would go ape**** if they made Kaidan bisexual, rather than say, Garrus.

[M-Sinistrari]

Marta Rio wrote...

Yep, there are ways of implementing the toggle that don't remove all mention of same-sex individuals from the game.  I think you could even justify using the toggle to keep previous squadmates from actively hitting on your Shepard - it's not too much of a leap of logic that at this point they would know your Shep fairly well and would thus be aware of his or her romantic proclivities.  But you could still have James Vega talking about how he broke up with his boyfriend recently, or Liara mentioning that she thinks Miranda has a very well-shaped ass, etc.

I actually think that such a toggle would do a lot to quash the complainers, while still showing them that gay individuals exist in the ME universe.  I think most of them don't care that other characters are gay, they just abhor the thought that their Shepard might be.  It might be a good way of exposing them to positive portrayals of gay people, without inducing so much backlash.

Um...maybe I'm missing something somewhere which is really possible with how fast this thread can move, but I thought the toggle being discussed just switched off the selected romance dialog and left everything else in as normal.

If that's the case, that would explain why I'm confused at the rage against merely discussing it.

[Eromenos]

ReconTeam wrote...

ipgd wrote...
p.s. it may "feel like" there is very little gay violence, but there certainly is. People hide it, and still aren't left to be -- see: Tyler Clementi, Ryan Halligan, Asher Brown, etc., driven to suicide because they were relentlessly mocked for being gay or being perceived as gay. There is not perfect harmony right now and insisting that gays remain closeted and marginalized and hidden away from the media only encourages the kind of ignorance that enables Othering and viscious torment. Gay people need to have a presence for this to stop.

It is ignorance to expect people to show some decency? To expect people to keep their sex lives behind closed doors? Your gay, great, I don't care, stop shouting it out, stop trying to "inform" schoolchildren about it, stop expecting society to treat you special. You honestly think forcing a "presence" in the media will change things? Young people commit suicide all the time, yet it is somehow more tragic when that person happens to be gay? Is that really the state of our culture? Good men and women, American soldiers, are fighting and dying halfway across the globe and nobody gives a damn, yet it is a national tragedy when a gay kid commits suicide! Look around at the world, some PC "embracing diversity" BS isn't going to do anything!

I don't play video games and expect to be hit over the head with the promotion of social agendas either. I strongly believe Bioware could have spent the effort adding content the majority of players could enjoy.

You refuse to accept compromise under the guise that some sort of option at the start of the game would be "offensive" or whatever. Some sort of DLC would also be "offensive" I'm sure. You're no better than the "homophobes" you insult.

Where's the str8ness being secluded "behind closed doors" in ME? You're straight, I don't care, stop shouting it out, stop trying to "inform" schoolchildren about it, stop expecting society to treat you special.

Wake. Up. When a gay person commits suicide there is a high chance that homophobia was a primary cause. Straight people don't have to deal with that **** hanging over them. In every place in western countries it is safe to be anywhere, go anywhere, do anything, and not be targeted just for being straight. Get off your high-horse because you don't get to cry victim.

I don't play video games and expect to be hit over the head with the promotion of social agendas either.

Oh, but you do. Your desire is a homophobic agenda. Little gayness in its corner where it can't damage your poor mind. Or the children's. Oh, think of the children. Some of whom are actually queer whether you like it or not.

And some of those "good men and women" in the U.S. military are also queer. Very soon you'll face their images too. Some of them I'm sure we all have without knowing.

Modifié par Eromenos, 18 mai 2011 - 05:28 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Removed by user.

I still don't see how toggle = discrimination. People are looking to be offended.

Seriously do you think BW has handled the romances quite unobtrusively up until now? I don't and it takes a great deal to offend me.

Here's the problem: I can't discuss real world politics here, and I'm trying very hard not to, so it's difficult to explain.

First I want to say this: we ask a lot from Bioware. So far they're pretty much the absolute best company out there for equality, and we just ask for more and more. It's not fair to them, probably. But since they treat those of us in smaller demographics very well, we ask for even more, because we feel like they care. I think this back and forth is a good thing, in general, but we're asking things of Bioware we wouldn't dream of asking of a lot of other companies.

There are toggles for blood and bad language. They exist in a lot of games. Blood and bad language are things that some people consider inappropriate. Yes. They're also not things that are inherently true about a person.

My original example was meant to be somewhat light, that's why I chose redheads as one of the potential groups to be removed. I'm going to go with that one as an example now, because I'm a redhead and because while we get made fun of, we're not a group that has actually been discriminated against in the past, per se.

Say someone suggested the "no gingers" toggle, that would make any red-headed NPC a brunette. Even if I never have to turn it on in my game, putting it in tells me this: there are people out there who would prefer to believe that I do not exist. My very existence and portrayal in media is seen as a wrong thing, as wrong as swearing or bloodshed. There are some people for whom the idea of having to interact with a redhead is so disturbing that they would prefer not to play a game with redheads in it. They can't just walk away, they need to be sure they aren't even reminded for a second that redheads exist.

It wasn't so long ago that a woman wearing pants or a woman in the military would have caused this kind of discomfort and outrage. The original Star Trek was meant to have a female second in command, but they told Gene Roddenberry that doing so was too unrealistic and offensive, Americans would not believe it, would not accept such a thing. Now, about 45 years later, I can play as a female commander and nobody batts an eye. And this change hasn't happened because everyone decided at once that female commanders were OK, it happened because people like Gene Roddenberry kept trying to put them in, and eventually it got to the point where you could barely do it, where it would deeply offend a LOT of people to do it, but it wouldn't offend an entire nation so much that they would refuse to watch your TV show.

And that's how change happens - something gets put in the first time which offends a lot of people, letters get written, people get disgusted, but then the world entirely fails to end, and the ten year old who sees it grows up to think that the world was always that way, that women could always be commanders, and that's freaking beautiful. That's the beauty of the future, of science fiction, and of art.

That's why putting an openly gay person who cannot be toggled off into a game is good: it starts a road to people accepting such a thing as normal. Being able to turn it off is like selling a special TV that goes black when Mary Tyler Moore wears pants, or when Kirk and Uhura kiss.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 18 mai 2011 - 05:42 .

[Marta Rio]

M-Sinistrari wrote...

Um...maybe I'm missing something somewhere which is really possible with how fast this thread can move, but I thought the toggle being discussed just switched off the selected romance dialog and left everything else in as normal.

If that's the case, that would explain why I'm confused at the rage against merely discussing it.

I think people are afraid that a toggle could excise all mention of gay individuals in game, which could potentially happen if all the examples of homosexuality in the ME universe are strictly limited to the romance dialogue.  Someone equated it to having a race toggle that removes all asians from the game.  That's where all the rage is coming from.

Also, I think a lot of people are of the opinion that "people should grow up and just ignore the dialogue options that they don't like".  But it's clear from the many many pages of arguments on this subject that some commenters are incapable of doing so.