94 réponses à ce sujet

[Figaro94]

That's not what im saying, what i mean is that the quarians could have been more carefull instead of taking a hasty decision, they may be robots but you can't just wipe out an entire intelligent race and think nothing bad will happen.

[KhaysunDei]

I would choose the Geths, they're just as good as quarians with engineering but also have tougher armor and giant kick ass robots whereas quarians are a bit too childish and always end up needing a rescue... <_<

[Antivenger]

Saphra Deden wrote...

That's irrelevant. Whether the geth threatened the quarians or not they had the capability to do great harm.

A lion may not display any threatening behavior towards me but I'm still going to assume the worst and keep my distance because if it [u]did[u] decide to harm me it might kill me.

A stranger offering you a ride may not display any kind of threat but once you get into his car you are in grave danger.

If you're going to turn that into a point of reference you might as well take the whole damn galaxy into account. Capability? Huh. What about the Krogan who tried to take over the Traverse and the Salarians and Turians who neutered them? What about the Batarians who regularly capture and enslave members of other species? 

True Geth (and possibly Rachni) are the most peaceful sapient RACE in the ME universe.

Modifié par Antivenger, 16 mai 2011 - 11:47 .

[Mykel54]

The quarians no doubt, the geth are just a bunch of rogue machines that have to be put down or put under control of their creators.

[Figaro94]

Antivenger wrote...
True Geth are actually the most peaceful sapient RACE in the ME universe.

If you don't count the heretics wich most people decide to rewrite thats very true

Modifié par Figaro94, 16 mai 2011 - 11:49 .

[AlexMBrennan]

The krogan are a sentient living entities, and so are the baterians. Your argument is invalid unless you can show that the geth are sentient livening entitie.
Edit: Turning off all fridges made by a particular manufacturer is OK, genocide is not. The question is in which category the quarians' attempt to shut down the geth falls into.

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 16 mai 2011 - 11:52 .

[Figaro94]

Saphra Deden wrote...

The geth are hardly peaceful and the Rachni sure as hell aren't either.

Well i stand on the Rachnis side here to, the reason the Rachni are hostile are because they were indoctrinated by the reapers and could not learn the normal ways of the Rachni. The queen on Noveria tells you this.

[Antivenger]

Saphra, are you role playing or what? We're discussing metagame here. It's established canon that the True Geth want peace. The Heretics want to kill all organics. The Rachni too, the ones that went berzerk were indoctrinated by Reapers.

[Undertone]

I don't have particular love for neither of them, let them kill each other. But since the Reapers are coming if I had to make a choice I would try to postpone their war and help me defeat the Reapers. After that go ahead and destroy each other. Weaker competition for humanity then.

If I had to make a choice between just one or the other I would choose the Geth. The quarians are fools.

[Sturmwulfe]

The problem is the geth are self aware, like any of the organic races you encounter in the game (not counting things like varren, mind you). However, unlike organics, I doubt the geth have any reason to lie about anything, and perhaps not even the capacity. And even if they did, that would be further proof of sentience, which makes them have an equal right to existence of any other species.

The geth were not hostile to the quarians when the quarians tried to wipe them out, they were merely trying to come to terms with their existence. The quarians had a knee jerk reaction, assuming the geth wouldn't be happy doing dangerous or menial work for long and would revolt. I personally think that's a load of horse dung.

For example, Legion informs Shepard that the geth have maintained the quarian homework, including all of it's utilities and functions that the geth have no use for, when they don't even want to particularly live there forever. They just want to be left alone in some quiet corner of the galaxy making a Dyson Sphere for the geth to live on independently. Even if the work was dangerous to individual geth frames, losing a frame is like clipping toe nails, because they can upload their individual platform into the network or another frame, as long as they were in a network with other geth. For example, if Legion dies in the suicide mission, it actually dies because it's last words are something akin to there's nowhere for it to upload it's platform, so it dies in the body. My point is, you can't compare our values and understanding of the world to theirs, as many things don't directly apply. From what the series has presented us, one of the main reasons the geth want to be isolated is that they want to study and learn how to coexist with organic life, as they are afraid of being wiped out by another misunderstanding.

So, if it isn't possible to help both sides of the conflict, I'd rather help the geth. They are in the right to continue to survive, and the quarians are being the foolish aggressors. I'm pretty sure it didn't occur to the quarians diplomacy with the machines that still view them as their creators is always an option.

Besides, in a fight, the geth are infinitely more useful. They have greater numbers, better technology, unity, and they aren't going to die of disease if their bodies take the slightest bit of damage from some stupid infection.

[Figaro94]

Sturmwulfe wrote...

The problem is the geth are self aware, like any of the organic races you encounter in the game (not counting things like varren, mind you). However, unlike organics, I doubt the geth have any reason to lie about anything, and perhaps not even the capacity. And even if they did, that would be further proof of sentience, which makes them have an equal right to existence of any other species.

The geth were not hostile to the quarians when the quarians tried to wipe them out, they were merely trying to come to terms with their existence. The quarians had a knee jerk reaction, assuming the geth wouldn't be happy doing dangerous or menial work for long and would revolt. I personally think that's a load of horse dung.

For example, Legion informs Shepard that the geth have maintained the quarian homework, including all of it's utilities and functions that the geth have no use for, when they don't even want to particularly live there forever. They just want to be left alone in some quiet corner of the galaxy making a Dyson Sphere for the geth to live on independently. Even if the work was dangerous to individual geth frames, losing a frame is like clipping toe nails, because they can upload their individual platform into the network or another frame, as long as they were in a network with other geth. For example, if Legion dies in the suicide mission, it actually dies because it's last words are something akin to there's nowhere for it to upload it's platform, so it dies in the body. My point is, you can't compare our values and understanding of the world to theirs, as many things don't directly apply. From what the series has presented us, one of the main reasons the geth want to be isolated is that they want to study and learn how to coexist with organic life, as they are afraid of being wiped out by another misunderstanding.

So, if it isn't possible to help both sides of the conflict, I'd rather help the geth. They are in the right to continue to survive, and the quarians are being the foolish aggressors. I'm pretty sure it didn't occur to the quarians diplomacy with the machines that still view them as their creators is always an option.

Besides, in a fight, the geth are infinitely more useful. They have greater numbers, better technology, unity, and they aren't going to die of disease if their bodies take the slightest bit of damage from some stupid infection.

Wow that was a great post, i totally agree with you!

[Figaro94]

I honestly that we won't need to choose because war with 1 of them at the same time as with the reapers wouldn't be quite good...

[Sturmwulfe]

Glad to articulate your thoughts, Figaro. I'm just waiting for the inevitable counter-rebuttal telling me I'm horribly wrong and the geth are going to start eating salarian babies behind Shepard's back.

[Zack56]

I would keep them both at least until after the reapers die by our hands. Afterwards, I would likely favor Geth as they don't (can't ?) let emotions get in the way of making decisions and this is coming from a Talimancer.

[Nexis7]

I prefer Legion over Tali. Its so cute like a little puppy :3
Probably not the best way to describe a geth..
Not that theres anything wrong with Tali, I just find Legion a more interesting character.

[Sturmwulfe]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Sturmwulfe wrote...

The problem is the geth are self aware, like any of the organic races you encounter in the game (not counting things like varren, mind you). However, unlike organics, I doubt the geth have any reason to lie about anything, and perhaps not even the capacity.

A lie is a deception. We decieve when it benefits us. Why wouldn't geth? We already know for a fact they can decieve as evidenced by the experiments they ran on the batarians.

While that is a fairly valid point, I think that relates more to studying than actively deceiving. I think the concept of a God that that isn't actually tangable (like Sovereign was to the heretic geth), is something that the geth themselves consider a strange organic thing. While Mass Effect has shown AI as capable of pulling someones leg, so to speak (EDI telling Joker his job would be on the line if he didn't improve his performance, your example of the geth releasing a news report that you can see the salarian god on the bartarian homework for example), I think most of the examples you see of this deception was in the intention of creating a testing environment to see how organics react to stimuli. The geth themselves weren't actively doing anything malicious, they just wanted to see how many beings would react to the news report without varifying it's authenticity. Likewise, EDI clarified to Shepard that she noticed Joker performs well under pressure. Could this mean the potential for lying? Sure, but I don't think that AI have any reason to, especially to those they consider allies. If you played the Shadow Broker DLC (I'm not sure if you have or not, I'm going to assume yes), Legion's dossier mentions he plays a lot of online games. While this is mostly as a joke by developers, I thought it was interesting that Legion was able to overturn many of the accusations against it for cheating, using VI assistance, having faster than possible response time, Legion did in fact accept suspension for taunting other players. Considering it was able to get out of easily monitered accusations (previously menioned faster than organic response time, being able to simutaniously control several 'pets' with his character, VI assistance et cetera), it accepted the one thing that you would think would be the easiest way to manipulate your way out of. Another thing is when Shepard questions Legion about the N7 armour it has welding to it's frame, it doesn't lie about anything, even though it seems uncomfortable trying to answer why it used the armour. I don't think it was capable of articulating why exactly the N7 armour was chosen and the hole wasn't repaired sooner, it would have been easier just to fabricate a lie such as the components of the N7 armour are better than what was previously there, and everything prior to discovery was inadequate.

[DeadLetterBox]

If I had to choose...
From a purely practical standpoint, the geth would probably be more useful against the Reapers. They don't need to breathe, they don't have an overactive immune response to breaches of a thin outer shell, they are logical, and they can do what is needed without a biological fear response making their actions erratic. They are armed and have access to the resources to conduct repairs without taking away from the resources other fleets will need to repair themselves. Also, after the war they are less likely to pose a serious problem for humanity. They don't need garden worlds to live on, they can easily control their own reproduction, so there is little reason for us to fight. Even Eden Prime only happened because someone else got some geth to fight for him.

From an emotional standpoint, I would never want to do anything to hurt Tali. She's done a lot for me, and I feel a great deal of loyalty toward her. I'm pretty sure siding against her in the defining conflict of her culture would hurt her. However, I think I'm going to need a good navy in the very near future.

At the end of the day, I just hope it can be resolved without my having to make that choice. But if I had to, I would choose the geth, most likely.

[Slayer299]

Quarians. I like to keep away from the killer AI platforms that have made every effort to kill me <_<

[Dean_the_Young]

Antivenger wrote...

If you're going to turn that into a point of reference you might as well take the whole damn galaxy into account. Capability? Huh. What about the Krogan who tried to take over the Traverse and the Salarians and Turians who neutered them? What about the Batarians who regularly capture and enslave members of other species? 

That is why the Geth were built and integrated into the military: deterence against other powers. Deterence against other threats. Internal threats, such as from a machine rebellion, are much harder to deter: how do you frighten those without fear into not attacking?

True Geth (and possibly Rachni) are the most peaceful sapient RACE in the ME universe.

The True Geth saw nothing wrong with massacring all tresspassers and attempts at peaceful contact, while standing by and doing nothing when their bretheren attempted unprovoked omnicide. 99.9% of the Rachni's history has been in attempted omnicide, and her innocence rests entirely on her own claims.

[Sturmwulfe]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Sturmwulfe wrote...

While that is a fairly valid point, I think that relates more to studying than actively deceiving.

What is the difference? A deception is a deception. Why would you ever think the geth couldn't lie in the first place?

Sturmwulfe wrote...

...it seems uncomfortable trying to answer why it used the armour.

Stop anthropomorphizing him. Legion itself would tell you that is racist. Geth don't have emotions. Legion merely lacked data or did not really understand the question. Or it was indeed uncomfortable. It could be any number of things. Don't assume anything.

Also, break up your post into paragraphs.

Sorry for not breaking up the paragraphs, I was in a rush and extremely tired to bother editing. What was meant to be a quick reply went on longer.

Why would I think the geth wouldn't lie in the first place? Exactly the reasons I mentioned. Direct interaction with another being isn't the same as dangling a little carrot just to see what happens.

I'm pretty sure Bioware did a fine job anthopomorphizing it. There was no reason for it to display any sorts of emotions, which unless you weren't watching the screen or paying attention to the tone of Legion's voice, it is starting to develop rudamentary forms of emotions, or at least is heavily implied it is. So there's absolutely no reason for me not to.



Just watch what happens when the player sides with Tali. That doesn't look like an angery or upset reaction from something that's meant to be an emotionless robot?

Modifié par Sturmwulfe, 16 mai 2011 - 07:20 .